[X] My Assistant

[KarmaInferno]

You think revenge is out of the question? Never thought about it that way. And there's always setting an example to all that may think to follow suit.
How is it going to hurt corp to kill offenders? We publish the data, then we are found dead/missing in various parts of the country. Whats the damage to them?

It's all about Return On Investment. If they don't think the results are going to be worth the resources needed, they won't bother.

Some corps will have different ideas of what "worth" is, of course. Lofwyr might be more likely to spend a bit more for the satisfaction, for example.




-k

[Traul]

How much money are we talking about? Enough to buy your own island in the Caribbean and stuff it with drones/awakened critters/amazon bodyguards? It can be fun being the dungeon master for once.

[suoq]

It's all about Return On Investment. If they don't think the results are going to be worth the resources needed, they won't bother.

Does it really cost that much to kill someone who pissed you off? There's no ROI for private jets, expensive dinners, and doesn't the corp already have a security force and contacts to do this sort of thing already? Isn't it cheaper to kill them than to increase the defenses in case such actions encourage others? Besides, what's the point of running a multinational if you can't just kill people without the accountants getting all up in your business?

Public Contract: 10,000 per body dead. 20,000 per body alive. See data packet for individual details. The party in question knows why and any individuals in that party who wish to collect on the bounty of their comrades as part of making restitution may contact us when the job is completed. Cheaper than a used helicopter.

[Mardrax]

Does it really cost that much to kill someone who pissed you off? There's no ROI for private jets, expensive dinners, and doesn't the corp already have a security force and contacts to do this sort of thing already? Isn't it cheaper to kill them than to increase the defenses in case such actions encourage others? Besides, what's the point of running a multinational if you can't just kill people without the accountants getting all up in your business?

Public Contract: 10,000 per body dead. 20,000 per body alive. See data packet for individual details. The party in question knows why and any individuals in that party who wish to collect on the bounty of their comrades as part of making restitution may contact us when the job is completed. Cheaper than a used helicopter.

A private jet gets you from A to B quite a bit faster and with less hassle than a public airline. A private helicopter enables either A or B to be in a location that might otherwise be inaccessible. A private space shuttle allows you to bring guests and personel to the suborbital resort in style. Luxury dinner buys you good PR, which, as Horizon will tell you, is priceless. Unless you're taking your wife out for dinner, which may well have you sweating as the auditor comes by. The promise of all of these things might help bring the best personel you can find in.

Killing a thief brings no reward whatsoever, unless there's a risk of repeat offending, and that risk is larger than the target of the repeat offense being one of your competitors. In fact, you might just see yourself approached by a Johnson from the company you're running from. You're obviously capable, and they have you sweating as is.

[KarmaInferno]

Decent assassins are not cheap.

If a corps finds that the ones they send keep ending up dead, eventually they might reconsider the cost.

Besides, as pointed out, at that point they might figure you're more valuable as an asset rather than a target. If you're THAT good working AGAINST them, you'll be that good working FOR them. A really well done job makes for a great work resume.

"You know what? We were going to kill you as an example. But it turns out there's a job we need done, and I think you'd be perfect for it."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-k

[Mardrax]

You think revenge is out of the question? Never thought about it that way. And there's always setting an example to all that may think to follow suit.
How is it going to hurt corp to kill offenders? We publish the data, then we are found dead/missing in various parts of the country. Whats the damage to them?

A Renraku 'revenge' action.
Certain damage: ammunition for a Red Sam squad. Wages for the Red Sam squad. The Red Sam Squad not being able to do whatver they normally do.
Potential damage: a fully equipped Red Sam squad. Public outcry as Renraku employees are discovered to commit crimes on foreign soil.

Or alternatively:
Certain damage: wages for a Johnson. Premium for a fixer. Wages for a merc/runner.
Potential damage: having the hitman make off with the paydata himself.

There are other alternatives. However, there's always a cost involved.

[suoq]

Killing a thief brings no reward whatsoever.

It brings pleasure and reputation.

Dead assassins don't collect on the bounty or the escrow account.

And sure, hire the team. And if they succeed, then kill the team. As the Dancer said in an old issue of Grimjack "It's always best if your enemies work for you. If they succeed you can always kill them later."

If your gaming style goes towards corps forgiving shadowrunners, and even hiring them, go for it. It's your table. Personally, my preference is otherwise. You can justify it either way. In fact it's easiest to justify it many ways since not all NPCs behave the same.

[Traul]

A Renraku 'revenge' action.
Certain damage: ammunition for a Red Sam squad. Wages for the Red Sam squad. The Red Sam Squad not being able to do whatver they normally do.
Potential damage: a fully equipped Red Sam squad. Public outcry as Renraku employees are discovered to commit crimes on foreign soil.

Empirical evidence seems to indicate that they give up after the loss of the 3rd squad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

It brings pleasure and reputation.

To individuals. You are assigning emotive motivations to something that has no emotion.

Megacorporate machines care nothing for the former, and frankly gain nothing significant from the latter.

It's all about scale. When you have millions of employees and trillions of nuyen to juggle, taking revenge on a handful of runners just isn't that important, and frankly most of your rival corps won't give a crap about it. You gain neither profit nor any real reputation from it.

If you are at a point where merely killing people that stole from you enhances your reputation, you are not a megacorp. You are probably small time. Megacorps are far beyond that level and tend to think much, much bigger.

Dead assassins don't collect on the bounty or the escrow account.

A good assassin is an asset that may take years and considerable resourcess to cultivate. You don't just expend them carelessly.

Heck, that team of runners you were after might be your next set of long-term wetwork assets. If they're that good it'd be a shame to waste them.


-k

[suoq]

To individuals. You are assigning emotive motivations to something that has no emotion.

Personally, I'm assigning emotions to whatever person now has to handle the theft. Given the value of the item stolen, it seems reasonable that the fact that it's stolen will cross the desk of someone with money, power, and emotion.

If that seems unreasonable to you, that's your table.

This doesn't mean the person will kill them. This means I believe there's a realm of possible actions such a person might take and while one of those possibilities may be to ignore it and another possibility may be to track them down and hire them, I'm also extremely open the the possibility that simply killing them is worthwhile.

A good assassin is an asset that may take years and considerable resourcess to cultivate. You don't just expend them carelessly.

I don't need a good assassin. I just need some specific SINless killed. Sure they have special skills and are well armed, but personally, I don't really care how many amateurs die trying. Dead amateurs are free.

And if any of them want the job of wetwork asset, they're free to collect on the bounty on the rest the the team's heads.

[KarmaInferno]

Eh. "There's no profit in revenge" is an old Shadowrun megacorporate trope.

And truly inescapable doom makes for poor gameplay, unless you're playing Cthulhu or Paranoia. In real life, many independent black ops people end up with short and brutish lives. There comes a point in a game, however, where you have to ask, "is this actually enjoyable?"

I tend to not enjoy such bleak endings, either as GM or as a player.



-k

[Smokeskin]

Let us assume this megacorp is into the 'revenge as deterrent' thing, you wouldn't have stolen the data to begin with, would you?

Let's face it. Runners are greedy bastards who think they won't get caught or don't bother to think about the consequences until afterwards, like all criminals. If deterrence worked, our prisons would be empty.

The corps are going to spend enough nuyen on deterence to discourage the rational, when it is cost effective. They're not going to blow millions on some worldwide manhunt to make an example to people who are going to risk it regardless. They're probably more concerned about keeping inventory managers and accountants from pilfering.

[suoq]

Can someone show me in this thread the "inescapable doom" and "millions on an international manhunt" that people are arguing against?

[Smokeskin]

If it isn't an option for a handful of runners with lots of money to disappear, then that's sort of in the cards, isn't it?

[Smirnov]

It's all about Return On Investment. If they don't think the results are going to be worth the resources needed, they won't bother.

That's pretty much the concept we've been operating under. If you want to survive, make it unprofitable for the corp to hunt you. But there's always a liine to cross - after some ammount of damage, it _becomes_ personal.
Still, what are the options here? How can we make ourselves 'untouchables' to the corp?

How much money are we talking about? Enough to buy your own island in the Caribbean and stuff it with drones/awakened critters/amazon bodyguards? It can be fun being the dungeon master for once.

We will surely make millions out of it. We can quite easily make tens of millions. We probably can make hundreds, but it will take some serioud negotiation jutsu.
We are speaking about a breakthrough technology here. It's too raw for the market yet, but with dome investment and further research, it could be the new black in some ten years.


Just a small comment on the possible retribution from the corp. If they don't come for us, that's good. We're free and sound and all stuff. But if it comes, we want to be ready. So let's shift a bit from 'do they come at all?' to 'what to do when they come?' or 'what to do so they don't come?' side of the argument (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ghremdal]

If dealing with a rival megacorp watch out that they don't get any data on you as well.

Johnson: "Well thank you for delivering this precious data. Here is the 20 mil we agreed on. Excellent. Oh just one more thing. Your biometrics and location are on its way to the megacorp you stole the date from. For a one time limited offer, I can interrupt that process. The price you ask? A trifle; only 20 mil nuyen."

[suoq]

We will surely make millions out of it. We can quite easily make tens of millions. We probably can make hundreds, but it will take some serious negotiation jutsu.

Well, that certainly justifies "millions on an international manhunt" by, well, everyone.

I just want to understand why the campaign is currently in this place. You have something that is worth at least 10's of millions to someone who can take you alive and suck the knowledge out of your cells and ware and you will be unable to effectively defend yourself against such a threat until AFTER you sell the product.

That also answers the "inescapable doom" question as well.

I hope your GM has a plan. I'm boggled.

[Smirnov]

'Why' is a pretty easy question to answer. We have a rule that if players want something and can make said something happen, it should happen. We managed to break into a well-guarded databank (that wasn't all too easy, I might add), and the 'reward' was due - hot data which probably will kill us (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The whole situation is totally PC-created and we are having a lot of fun with it.

I don't want to relt on the GM in this one (or any one at all), there may be a 'master' plan, but right now I want to have a plan of our own. After all, it's always better if players do something rather than sit and wait for the GM to do something to them (it's subjective opinion, of course)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, just to be clear. You managed to obtain information that could pay off in the Tens of Millions. I assume that you are planning to sell it off and retire afterwards? Or do your characters not run for money? Not that you can't spend that Tens of millions on stuff (That is a Lot of Deltaware Cyber/Bio and Ammunition) and continue to run, of course. Just curious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smirnov]

That's a tricky question. I certainly want to keep running. Investing in future runs may be a good idea. And we certainly have more to run than plain money. Weel, at least me - I should speak for myself only, I guess. But considering the situation, retirement may be an option. Still, I think it won't be an option. Probably we'll move out of 'street level' (which pretty much already happened) to some other, upper level, whatever it is called (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[nezumi]

Deterrence does work, just not on everyone. If I'm Joe Wageslave, I'm not going to risk my life for something like this (although I may risk my job and even some prison time). It's just basic math. Shadowrunners already DO risk everything, but they're the fringe case.

There's also the PR question. If Awesomecorp is raided and that becomes public knowledge, their stocks dip (sometimes significantly). That costs money. If they can make a QUICk clean-up, that reduces that dip. $100,000 to 'get them before this data becomes public (even if it's been sold) and $10,000 to get them within four months after' is not unreasonable. You're paying for investor confidence. Getting someone who looks like them is also acceptable, as long as no one realizes the difference (then it's double egg on your face). After around four months it's forgotten, and bringing them in doesn't do anything.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Ok, you need to sell it, hmm... How about by proxy and/or patsy? If you can afford it, I say your team needs to change their identities ASAP, just disappear, then work through anonymized (have no connection to your old identities) intermediaries until one of them nets survivable transaction negotiated. Oh and since this pay data is sounding thoroughly top secret, I think you should take a snippet of it and publicly release it, again through unwitting proxy, just to wet their appetite, they can't want to pay millions upon millions for something they have no idea exists.

Once you encounter a buyer willing to do a variable mobile, off-line dead drop of the pay, pass along the goods by the same means.

Sure, you don't gain any reputation, if anything you lose all your old reputation and your new contacts have possibly no loyalty to you (yet) as you start fresh again on the shadow scene but you get to rebuild that with considerable discretionary funds.

*gets out a few brochures that look like ancient X-Men comics* May I suggest various shell companies that just happen to buy shares/stock/invest in the buyer who bought the new tech you just sold and/or perhaps investing in a Shadow Skool to increase your long term security with the only thing worth a damn in the shadows, a teammate you can rely on to have your back when the drek hits the HVAC...

[Smirnov]

Once you encounter a buyer willing to do a variable mobile, off-line dead drop of the pay, pass along the goods by the same means.

So, you suggest hard chips and no matrix exchange? I'm torn between these variants. Meatspace offers more control - after all, if the man hands me the credstick, I have said credstick, no 'lost transactions', but this way it becomes way more dangerous as we have to be there in person. Matrix exchange leaves a lot of trails, but we can probably bury them... or not.

And I would certainly prefer that we don't get any reputation on this one. The less people know, the better.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Definitely meat space with magic overwatch if your team has that specialty, a place and time of your choosing, with back ups, where you just make a hide and roost with sniper rifles and remote cameras watching the approaches, that you have suitably bottlenecked, and all this is just to watch if they kill or capture your proxy. What that proxy is depends on the best your team has to offer, if you have someone who has ridiculous Charisma, a bad ass Face, the proxy can be a unwitting meta-human who is just a one way messenger with no magical connection. If you team has great engineering, the proxy can be a drone specifically made for the situation and so on... The details are really up to your team according to their strengths.

Note I made a very specific set of parameters for the exchange in my other post ... shit, I gotta go. Peace.

[Smirnov]

Hm... What about open sea?
Say, somewhere in the neutral (or not neutral to limit possible action) waters onboard a ship (rented specifically for the purpose?), meeting at specific coordinates (which would be corrected just before the meeting to avoid ambush and set-up).