Legal Vampires, tours leave nightly Options

[sabs]

Vampires only have to drain 1 point a month. That's not really that big a deal, most regular people won't even notice it's gone.

And Vampires can't actually spend any of their essence, so eventually 1 essence is all they really need to drain.

[Nath]

And Tamir Grey died, and then there were the 162s and Tamanous, who basically gave metahumanity the finger because Tamir and his merry cannibals were collateral damage in Ares' fighting bugs (and claimed it was totally intentional, disregarding Ares' previous attempt, which included a nuke, something that usually destroys entire cities).

If you ask me, treating Tamanous as only a ghouls group is also whitewashing. At least, ghouls have no other than option than human flesh to survive. Much darker to have people considering organlegging as a profitable business opportunity, rather than a necessity.

[hermit]

Already responded to that. Which you totally missed, again

Nope, you just tried to wiggle your way out, generally refering to books that cover different topics (like skillsofts that may or may not make workers a thing of the past). Not relevant to the topic of civil rights for new races (metahumans, ghouls, ect). I was inclined to let that pass, but since you insist: quote on that.

Only if one ignores the somewhat antisocial aspect of draining live people of their souls...

And here I thought this aspect was gone since Nachtwache. Fluff over Crunch and all, for the good of the oWoD memorial character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hmmmm, odd. Just a few lines before you had this to say about those things which are feral monsters but for a few lucky ones:

I mentioned Tamir Grey, and the 162s. Where did I say anything abot whether other ghouls are feral or not? The bit about ghouls usually not being much more than feral critters is from RC 3E and 2E. Of course, ghoultown kind of collected the smart ghouls since you had to apply and register to gain refuge at Carbini, which is hard to manage if you're a fearl, snarling creature who attacks everyone on sight or hides until it is hungry again.

If you ask me, treating Tamanous as only a ghouls group is also whitewashing.

No, never meant to, the upper ranks were Wendigos and/or Nosferati (according to, IIRC, Threats 2). But Ghouls make up by far most of their members.

At least, ghouls have no other than option than human flesh to survive. Much darker to have people considering organlegging as a profitable business opportunity, rather than a necessity.

The reasoning always was they sell the organs and eat the rest. Make money by eating, so to speak. It's not more or less dark than hunting people purely for food.

[PoliteMan]

That's only the lucky few among them. For the rest, it's feral monster. At least, it used to be before SR4. Actually, vampires fit that hat far better. they're less infectious, too. By the (argh) SR4 rules, vamires have a lot easier time to live in a socially tolerable way than ghouls. Sad but true.

I don't think it's all feral monsters. There seems to be 3 classes: feral monsters, ghouls who retained their intelligence but just plain went evil (losing a god portion of their mind will do that to you), and those who retain some of their humanity. Lone ghouls or small communities struggling to normalize themselves works a lot better if the rest are monsters.

As for vampires, well,
There two general ways to portray vampires: One is pure evil, basically a evil spirit/demon in a charming human shell. Nosferatu already do this pretty well, no reason to make this PCs. There's just not a lot to roleplay here.

As for general vampires, there's two problems:
#1 Regular vampires seem Cursed with Awesome, while ghouls are just cursed. There's nothing glamorous about being a ghoul and nobody but a min-maxing street-sam would want to be one, while plenty of people (just look at pop culture) wouldn't mind being a vampire (at least at first). There's an additional problem here: most of the vampiric struggle is internal, while a ghoul's struggle is as obvious as their blind, warped faces. And in an RPG, there's just not going to be that much time to devote to the internal struggle of an NPC who may only last a session or two. Need your players to understand the man/monster dynamic and start roleplaying it? You can spend fifteen seconds describing the ghoul's body or ten minutes listening to the vampire's tragic past.

#2 I won't say vampires are overdone, they're really popular and have been for awhile, but SR seems like a really bad place to do that. The vampiric struggle to maintain his humanity while he must kill to survive seems kinda dumb in a team of runners who regularly assault megacorps and get into shoot-outs with the cops to stay fed. It can be done, and I imagine there are lots of kids who want to play a vampire, which is great, more people playing SR, but you can't just transplant vampires into a cyberpunk dystopia. They need to be fleshed out and right now they're just not.

[hermit]

I don't think it's all feral monsters. There seems to be 3 classes: feral monsters, ghouls who retained their intelligence but just plain went evil (losing a god portion of their mind will do that to you), and those who retain some of their humanity.

According to the SR3 rules, you have a one in 24 (roughly) chance to emerge from the transformation without significant personality damage, a 1 in 6 chance to become a psycho, and a sure chance to become something feral. I can't find the SR4 rules, but I remember them harsher.

[Sengir]

Nope, you just tried to wiggle your way out, generally refering to books that cover different topics (like skillsofts that may or may not make workers a thing of the past). Not relevant to the topic of civil rights for new races (metahumans, ghouls, ect). I was inclined to let that pass, but since you insist: quote on that.

So after three pages, you still haven't got the clue that I was not talking about different races? Oh well, have fun with that, as well as with your strawman Twilight characters (which is kinda funny, I don't think any vampire groupie would go the lengths you go to whitewash vampires, just to be able to complain about whitewashed vampires)

[hermit]

So after three pages, you still haven't got the clue that I was not talking about different races?

I made the mistake to assume you understood the topic. My bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for straw man arguments: that is your specialty, not mine.

[Sengir]

most of the vampiric struggle is internal, while a ghoul's struggle is as obvious as their blind, warped faces.

Vampires may get some extra Charisma, but they nevertheless are pale, hairless, emaciated (where do you think the -4 to swimming comes from) creatures which shy away from daylight. In a word, bloodsucking nerds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hermit]

Very pretty nerds though. Like Robert Pattinson. Or Justin Bieber.

And where do you get the idea from they're hairless? That's only Goblins and Ghouls. Other infected keep their hair or grow even hairirer!

[JanessaVR]

Very pretty nerds though. Like Robert Pattinson. Or Justin Bieber.

And where do you get the idea from they're hairless? That's only Goblins and Ghouls. Other infected keep their hair or grow even hairirer!

I think he means Nosferatu - they're hairless if I recall correctly.

[HunterHerne]

I think he means Nosferatu - they're hairless if I recall correctly.

That they are.

On the -4 penalty to vampires swimming, it`s not because theyare emaciated, or most infected would get it, especially Goblins. That penalty actually stems from the mythic portrayal of Vampires, which are unable to cross moving bodies of water. Granted, it`s toned down, since they can still cross, but that`s my .02 nuyen.

(Also, another thinnish race, Elves, get a +1 to swimming before they penalties kick in.)

[Starmage21]

Vampires may get some extra Charisma, but they nevertheless are pale, hairless, emaciated (where do you think the -4 to swimming comes from) creatures which shy away from daylight. In a word, bloodsucking nerds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

-4 to swim comes from a drastically reduced buoyancy. Something about their transformation appears to make them more dense, or remove air from their bodies. If it were the latter, It could be both funny and not, considering vampires go dormant when there is a lack of oxygen.

[Patrick Goodman]

Vampires only have to drain 1 point a month. That's not really that big a deal, most regular people won't even notice it's gone.

And Vampires can't actually spend any of their essence, so eventually 1 essence is all they really need to drain.

I really suggest reading the Essence Drain power again....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I really suggest reading the Essence Drain power again....

It is quite enlightening, in fact... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Nath]

No, never meant to, the upper ranks were Wendigos and/or Nosferati (according to, IIRC, Threats 2). But Ghouls make up by far most of their members.

In the stories told in both Underworld Sourcebook and Loose Alliances, ghouls acts a guards (or driver). One post suggests whoever runs Tamanous finds ghouls useful as "dual-natured security and muscle," which is far from covering the full extent of Tamanous activities. Also in Underworld SB, someone asks if a wendigo may be running the show, because of the Black Tamanous legend. By the time of Loose Alliances, this is still around as a rumor, but someone's also saying a group of NAN shamans started the operation.

[PoliteMan]

Vampires may get some extra Charisma, but they nevertheless are pale, hairless, emaciated (where do you think the -4 to swimming comes from) creatures which shy away from daylight. In a word, bloodsucking nerds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Looking at Runner's Companion, p 81, Vampires get paler and get more pronounced canines (and their breathing becomes shallower) but that's it, they still sound pretty normal. I think you're talking about Nosferatu, who get the Orlock treatment.

[hermit]

In the stories told in both Underworld Sourcebook and Loose Alliances, ghouls acts a guards (or driver). One post suggests whoever runs Tamanous finds ghouls useful as "dual-natured security and muscle," which is far from covering the full extent of Tamanous activities. Also in Underworld SB, someone asks if a wendigo may be running the show, because of the Black Tamanous legend. By the time of Loose Alliances, this is still around as a rumor, but someone's also saying a group of NAN shamans started the operation.

NAN shamans and Wendigo is not mutually exclusive. I didn't remember the ghouls being only occasionally hired muscle, but the 'men in grey' in their scary chemsuits (that's from Vice I think).

[Traul]

Why does it have to be some magical mojo? All the street docs I've ever met were dabbling in organ-legging (or as they prefer to cal it, recycling), they just didn't manage to bring it to industrial scale.

[Sengir]

On the -4 penalty to vampires swimming, it`s not because theyare emaciated, or most infected would get it, especially Goblins. That penalty actually stems from the mythic portrayal of Vampires, which are unable to cross moving bodies of water. Granted, it`s toned down, since they can still cross, but that`s my .02 nuyen.

Or maybe it's just been forgotten in the goblin stats...RC hardly is the most error-free book ever. An aversion to running water would be better represented the same way RC suggest to handle holy symbols etc. - a (psychosomatic) allergy.


IMO the -4 swim modifier stems from the fact that "[a]fter a phase of internal transformation and purging" (RC) the newborn bloodsucker has quite simply purged a good part of his body weight. Also, there's the problem of getting enough nutrition besides the Dietary Requirement. Ghouls have the problem of getting raw meat in world which mostly subsides on soy products, but a creature which can only hold down blood has it even harder...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, there's the problem of getting enough nutrition besides the Dietary Requirement. Ghouls have the problem of getting raw meat in world which mostly subsides on soy products, but a creature which can only hold down blood has it even harder...

Except that you can easily factor the cost of the nutritionally required "Meat/Blood" into your lifestyle for a +30% Lifestyle Increase (Oprional Rule for easy bookkeeping). Done and no further worries about nutrition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Sengir]

Except that you can easily factor the cost of the nutritionally required "Meat/Blood" into your lifestyle for a +30% Lifestyle Increase (Oprional Rule for easy bookkeeping). Done and no further worries about nutrition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

As an optional rule, if the GM does not want to bog down the game with things like hunting your dinner.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As an optional rule, if the GM does not want to bog down the game with things like hunting your dinner.

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
After all, it is not "DinnerRun" it is "Shadowrun". But then, we don't play Infected at our tables, so it is not really that big of a worry for us.

[Aku]

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
After all, it is not "DinnerRun" it is "Shadowrun". But then, we don't play Infected at our tables, so it is not really that big of a worry for us.

Maybe someone should make an infected version of "Foodfight!" heh

[Stahlseele]

Maybe someone should make an infected version of "Foodfight!" heh

Foodfight4A: The Food fights back!

[Ascalaphus]

(Disclaimer1: Obviously non-canon ideas. I'm sure some people will hate them, but it's something I've been pondering for a couple of days, and I thought I'd share it.)
(Disclaimer2: I haven't seriously read the rules for Infected PCs. I gather they're peculiar; I don't care.)

Vampires have hired "scientists" to study if vampires can survive indefinitely from synthetic/animal nutrition. The studies suggest they can. The vampires make enough campaign donations and finance enough professorships, to keep this going. Of course the whole thing stinks; just like shadowrunners think Aztechnology stinks, this whole scientific "proof" is as believable as smoking not being bad for you.

In practice, vampires just take some people from the Barrens who won't be missed, and after topping up their Essence, throw the remains in the Soylent Food machine. If a vampire gets caught, the rest of the vampires publicly distance themselves, the sucker goes to trial, and may even get convicted (although vampires tend to have good lawyers). Now and then they intentionally create a spare fledgeling vampire to be sacrificed this way, just to pretend to the public that the State really protects the people from rogue vampires.

The whole thing smacks of hypocrisy; that's intentional. Vampires are pretty rare, wealthy and influential. Their main job in the campaign is to show off that society is hopelessly corrupt, that obviously evil people can get away with it.

And yeah, there are vampire hunter groups. They take down vampires from time to time; that's doable. Of course, the State is obliged to investigate such "murders", although a lot of unhappy investigators drag their feet and secretly sympathize with the vampire hunters. So the vampires hire shadowrunners to take down the vampire hunters (and the vampire hunters may earn their keep as shadowrunners...)

---

Yeah, I like vampires. I don't like ghouls so much. This whole drive to humanize them doesn't work on me. While vampires are about Hypocrisy, Monsters Looking Like Us, ghouls are degenerate. They're only vaguely human, can't really hope to masquerade. Their existence sucks; dangerous, but also quite vulnerable.

Ghouls are a plague. They aren't really fit to survive for long, but the pandemic is impossible to contain. It just keeps spreading, and the extermination efforts can't really keep up. If their population gets out of control in the Barrens, then the State will burn them out, but the infection always pops up in a new place.

Ghouls are tragic: they've become monsters that don't have long to live, but will probably cause a lot of harm before someone kills them. The most merciful thing to do is put Ex-Ex between their eyes as fast as possible, from a safe distance.