Legal Vampires, tours leave nightly Options

[Patrick Goodman]

...the Infected have been whitewashed, declawed and painted pink in 4E anyway.

Trying to fix that. I had a few ideas, but got involved with things a bit late. Okay, more than a bit late, but Rob didn't listen to me about the critters back in the initial 4E playtests anyway, and it was his decision-making that deballed the Infected from the word "Go."

But I'm working on it. Slowly, since that's how I work and I've got a lot of things to undo, but I am working on it.

[Patrick Goodman]

I just do not buy this sudden cuddlyness with that kind of Infected.

I address that, at least a little, in Street Legends. I'm not too wild about "Infected rights" either.

[Stahlseele]

The fact that a ghouls sneezes in your general direction and you get to be his brother if you were not extremely prepared does not help either . .

[Patrick Goodman]

You ain't just whistling "Dixie" there....

[Stahlseele]

You in't just whistling "Dixie" there....

does not compute?

[Aku]

does not compute?

I believe he's agreeing that is a bad set up

[Sengir]

Why anyone would want to employ Loup-Garou, of all things, is beyond me (even Mutaqua make more sense)

Eh, Shadowrun (and cyberpunk in general) is a world were there majority population lives like workers in the early days of industrialization - and that's before you get to the trogs or everybody else who doesn't fit. So giving rights to Infected is not about luxury problems like non-segregated bathrooms or equal opportunity employment, because that's something the rest of the world doesn't have, either. It's about basic things like not having a price one's head by virtue of existing.

[CanRay]

The fact that a ghouls sneezes in your general direction and you get to be his brother if you were not extremely prepared does not help either . .

And that is why drones are your friends.

[hermit]

I address that, at least a little, in Street Legends. I'm not too wild about "Infected rights" either.

Good old Martin.

Trying to fix that. I had a few ideas, but got involved with things a bit late. Okay, more than a bit late, but Rob didn't listen to me about the critters back in the initial 4E playtests anyway, and it was his decision-making that deballed the Infected from the word "Go."

Yeah (and Ancient's writeup of the near-veggie Wendigo that totally dismisses the core concept of the Wendigo legend). Your writeup has been more along the lines of what I think the Infected should be like. I still think it's a mistake to make them playable characters, too (and not much more plausible creatures, like Merrows). Or at least give some ideas about special campaigns for special needs PC in the Companion ... ah well, let'S not dwell on the companion to much, it'll just get me in rant mode.

So giving rights to Infected is not about luxury problems like non-segregated bathrooms or equal opportunity employment, because that's something the rest of the world doesn't have, either. It's about basic things like not having a price one's head by virtue of existing.

Cyberpunk also is a world where a much more feral idea of justice exists, in essence a neofeudal society. So why exactly shuld the general, unwashed and impoverished population hug and protect ghouls and vamps who are out to eat them instead of burning them at the stake? Why should a corp risk their wage-slaves turning on them because of politically correct embracing of the Infected?

Leper colony-like solutions might be possible, like shipping Infected to some kind of leper colony island. Of course, given Yomi, that idea probably is heavily tainted in the SR world.

[Glyph]

Why anyone would want to employ Loup-Garou, of all things, is beyond me (even Mutaqua make more sense), but the Infected have been whitewashed, declawed and painted pink in 4E anyway.

At least the vampires don't sparkle.

Yet.

I've never gotten the "rights" for infected, either. They aren't some misunderstood minority, they eat people. And the infectiousness of ghouls (part of Running Wild that I really think they need to retcon back to what it was) makes embracing them even more inexplicable. They are highly infectious, with a disease that turns people into, more or less, zombies - feral flesh-eating, rotted-looking things.


A district for vampires, I think is a very bad idea. You'll wind up having vampire carnivals, and vampire strip clubs, then you'll have Mary Sue, the PC vampire hunter, getting her own harem of vampires and shapeshifters. Don't go there... that way lies madness.

[Traul]

A district for vampires, I think is a very bad idea. You'll wind up having vampire carnivals, and vampire strip clubs, then you'll have Mary Sue, the PC vampire hunter, getting her own harem of vampires and shapeshifters. Don't go there... that way lies madness.

But on the plus side: Salma Hayek stripping...

[Stahlseele]

I believe he's agreeing that is a bad set up

ah, thank you for the translation ^^
i can do english, i can do bad english . . but i never got the hang of redneck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) *runs*

[Sengir]

So why exactly shuld the general, unwashed and impoverished population hug and protect ghouls and vamps who are out to eat them instead of burning them at the stake? Why should a corp risk their wage-slaves turning on them because of politically correct embracing of the Infected?

You know, I could just C&P my previous statement under that...but I will try to make it a bit more understandable:
Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight.

[CanadianWolverin...]

You know, I could just C&P my previous statement under that...but I will try to make it a bit more understandable:
Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight.

So, basicly it is about not being open, total warfare? Then shooting them where they can't be seen in the shadows is not off the table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[CanRay]

So, basicly it is about not being open, total warfare? Then shooting them where they can't be seen in the shadows is not off the table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

It's one of the rules: "Be discrete."

No, wait, that's "Be polite."

[ggodo]

It's one of the rules: "Be discrete."

No, wait, that's "Be polite."

But you should also have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

[Traul]

But you should also have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

For ghouls, the plan is: breathe.

[Sengir]

Then shooting them where they can't be seen in the shadows is not off the table. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Well, shooting people in the shadows is what this game is about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[hermit]

At least the vampires don't sparkle.

Yet.

With Companion's race generation rules that's actually an easy build. The Cold Ones (yes, I did that once) even came in less expensive than Nosferati.

Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight.

Any SR4 book disagrees with you on that. Actually, even SR2's Sprawl Sites disagrees (check the ORC activist contact and a couple of the encounters). The only book that might agree with you is Germany Sourcebook.

[Glyph]

Yeah (and Ancient's writeup of the near-veggie Wendigo that totally dismisses the core concept of the Wendigo legend).

Actually, although it detracts from the aforementioned, I prefer that writeup. I always had a problem with the earlier "Monster Manual" style writeup of the wendigo (and the SR3 metavariants, especially dryads). If you are going to have wendigos and dryads more closely resembling their legends, then do them as spirits, so it makes more sense! It's way better than saying "Human vampires can occasionally be angsty and misunderstood, but all orks that are infected are automatically chaotic evil, and all exhibit a very specific pattern of behavior." Or "Dryads all have a mysterious urge to go to the middle of the woods. Oh yeah, and they all automatically have the same religion." Metavariants and sapient critters have no business being pigeonholed into narrow roles like that. To some extent you can justify it if it is something present only in an isolated enclave, with one culture, but usually it smacks of lazy writing to me.

Leper colony-like solutions might be possible, like shipping Infected to some kind of leper colony island. Of course, given Yomi, that idea probably is heavily tainted in the SR world.

The biggest problem with that setup is that they still need "food". Of course, if you have some other kind of undesirable that can act in that role, you can essentially solve two problems at once. I don't see that happening in the public eye, even in the jaded world of Shadowrun, but I can see a government or megacorporation doing it secretly. Especially if it is combined with HMHVV research.

[hermit]

The biggest problem with that setup is that they still need "food". Of course, if you have some other kind of undesirable that can act in that role, you can essentially solve two problems at once. I don't see that happening in the public eye, even in the jaded world of Shadowrun, but I can see a government or megacorporation doing it secretly. Especially if it is combined with HMHVV research.

Ghouls (and Type III beasts) can eat the dead of SINless and each other if there're too many of them. The Vamps and other souleaters have no business being alive anyway. I can't possibly see why those should be allowed to be left alive.

If you are going to have wendigos and dryads more closely resembling their legends, then do them as spirits, so it makes more sense! It's way better than saying "Human vampires can occasionally be angsty and misunderstood, but all orks that are infected are automatically chaotic evil, and all exhibit a very specific pattern of behavior."

Because it is so much more logical to pigeonhole spirits (which are just as playable as metavariants and sapients) into an alignment - which are a bullshit idea to begin with, so best leave them out of this. Besides, the original setup had the vamps be just as evil as wendigos, only wendigos adding that "prefers the meat of people it corrupts to cannibalism" feat.

The dryad writeup was that of a Fae, though. Which are spirits, more or less. Pretty strange to make it an elf variant, of course.

[KarmaInferno]

Because it is so much more logical to pigeonhole spirits (which are just as playable as metavariants and sapients) into an alignment - which are a bullshit idea to begin with, so best leave them out of this.

It depends if you consider spirits to be sapient independent creatures, or manifestations of cosmic forces shaped by belief.

Even the in-game magical theorists haven't figured that one out for sure.

A Wendigo spirit, for example, may be a bloodthirsty savage man-eating horror because that's what people believe it to be.





-k

[hermit]

It depends if you consider spirits to be sapient independent creatures, or manifestations of cosmic forces shaped by belief.

They're playable. Unless you want to say every player of a spirit is maybe not an independent creature, it's fair to assume they are, since the rules for playing one do not indicate otherwise.

Nevermind how much that fucks fluff over and how much that screws with the way the SR world works. Background-wise, I'm all with you there, but Rob Boyle decided to make SR4 the newD&D where you can play anything that can hold a sword, so there you go. Of course, even UMT and SR4's magic syystem massively fucks with the established canon of how magic works in SR's universe ("your beliefs shape the rules"), so that is a pattern with SR4.

A Wendigo spirit, for example, may be a bloodthirsty savage man-eating horror because that's what people believe it to be.

Yeah, and look a lot mor awesome than that X-Men character. Did that once, was quite a memorable experience for some layers. But anyway. Making the Wendigo non.corrupting is the same level of gimping and PCing as a sparkling, vegetarian vampire would be.

[Sengir]

Any SR4 book disagrees with you on that.

On what? That everybody who is not a mid-level corp employee has the same enforceable rights as pre-Civil Rights blacks (i.e. none when it matters), or that "Ghoul rights" doesn't mean giving them more rights than the other proles?

Either way, I'm sure you have a quote to back that up.

[Glyph]

I consider spirits to be semi-sapient to sapient beings formed from the manasphere, shaped by the collective consciousness of metahumanity as a whole. So I think it does make sense to have them in more specific roles - the Wild Hunt is an example. I don't think of it as "alignment" so much as "programming". To use the matrix as an analogy, I would say most hermetic spirits are similar to agents, shamanic spirits are similar to sprites, and free spirits are similar to AIs. Although I also think the higher Force spirits will usually have more sapience, and more of a unique personality, even for things such as elementals.

Of course, this is getting into personal interpretation territory, but things such as manitou, the Wild Hunt, and other things show that spirits can have more rigidly defined behaviors and roles, when those roles are associated with a particular myth or legend.