Legal Vampires, tours leave nightly Options

[hermit]

On what? That everybody who is not a mid-level corp employee has the same enforceable rights as pre-Civil Rights blacks (i.e. none when it matters), or that "Ghoul rights" doesn't mean giving them more rights than the other proles?

On your claim: "Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight." Certainly, do you have a quote to back THAT up, right?

The books agree that metahumans are a tad farther than "not being shot on sight" in civil rights terms. They can be middle class corpers, for instance. Or maybe you want to back up your claim that everybody who is not a corp citizen (hint: most SINners are nationals, not corp citizens, check the stats in sourcebooks) has no tangible rights whatsoever?

@Glyph: I'd be inclined to agree with you on that, but the mere fact that spirits can be PCs - and PCs generally are not running a program, but have free will - disagrees with that interpretation.

[HunterHerne]

On your claim: "Civil rights in Shadowrun are not about not being discriminated and ostracized, but about not being shot on sight." Certainly, do you have a quote to back THAT up, right?

The books agree that metahumans are a tad farther than "not being shot on sight" in civil rights terms. They can be middle class corpers, for instance. Or maybe you want to back up your claim that everybody who is not a corp citizen (hint: most SINners are nationals, not corp citizens, check the stats in sourcebooks) has no tangible rights whatsoever?

@Glyph: I'd be inclined to agree with you on that, but the mere fact that spirits can be PCs - and PCs generally are not running a program, but have free will - disagrees with that interpretation.

The way I understand the social system, SINners have all the civil rights the parent countryécorporation gives them, as long as they are on their home soil. If they aren`t, they are subject to international law, and laws of the ruling body they are in, at least as far as internationals go. The SINless have no rights, and could be killed or disappeared without anyone really batting an eye. Most Metahumans fall on the category of SINners, defined on a particular social standing (generally Orks and Trolls in the Ghettos, and Humans, elves, and Dwarves everywhere, with more humans-by-numbers in the higher reaches), and most other species falling to the side (either because they aren`t considered equal of humanity, legally, or because of "racism". Metahumans might be "alright", but most humans would be uncomfortable with something non-human)

Spirits: Can be almost anything. I treat them as curiosities, as they should be. Some are narrow scoped, and will force their values, others will be more open. Two in universe examples are The Wild Hunt, which is a group of spirits which seem to party and enjoy sport, but prefer to be away from the Gaiasphere, so only come when someone performs a very specific ritual. The other is Buttercup, who owns a controlling interest in Evo. Originally, as fara s I can tell, she was playing with people for kicks, toying with them as her playthings. After spending a year force-inhabiting an Ork Male, she changed, and now embrasses what life has to offer.
Spirits can be narrow, but that doesn't mean they can't change like any other character.

[Nath]

Besides, the original setup had the vamps be just as evil as wendigos, only wendigos adding that "prefers the meat of people it corrupts to cannibalism" feat.

The second edition corebook explained quite a number of vampires avoided to kill their "prey" when draining Essence. Vampires needs what, 3.5 liters of blood a week and one point of Essence a month ? Doesn't seem that horrible to me, unless the target is awakened or you are working for a cyberware manufacturer.

[Glyph]

I see spirits as beings that can be constrained by the role in which they manifest. Those roles can either be narrow, or more open. In other words, you can be the archetypical wendigo, or you can be a generic spirit of man that went free. For the former, the spirit doesn't necessarily lack sapience, but it is convinced of its role. It thinks that it really is an "evil" spirit formed by a curse caused by cannibalism, so it's thinking will be bound up in that role. A fire spirit that goes free when its summoner dies, on the other hand, is less rigidly defined, so it has less constraints on how it can grow or change. It will still be formed in large part by its summoners attitudes - for example, if the mage typically summoned it in the form of a beautiful woman, then it will be likely to think of itself as female, and be likelier to be an animus rather than one of the other typical free spirit roles.

Actually, it would be pretty interesting, either as a PC or an NPC, to have a free spirit start out as something one-dimensional, such as a wendigo or a valkrie, then start questioning its role, and growing out of it.

[HunterHerne]

I see spirits as beings that can be constrained by the role in which they manifest. Those roles can either be narrow, or more open. In other words, you can be the archetypical wendigo, or you can be a generic spirit of man that went free. For the former, the spirit doesn't necessarily lack sapience, but it is convinced of its role. It thinks that it really is an "evil" spirit formed by a curse caused by cannibalism, so it's thinking will be bound up in that role. A fire spirit that goes free when its summoner dies, on the other hand, is less rigidly defined, so it has less constraints on how it can grow or change. It will still be formed in large part by its summoners attitudes - for example, if the mage typically summoned it in the form of a beautiful woman, then it will be likely to think of itself as female, and be likelier to be an animus rather than one of the other typical free spirit roles.

Actually, it would be pretty interesting, either as a PC or an NPC, to have a free spirit start out as something one-dimensional, such as a wendigo or a valkrie, then start questioning its role, and growing out of it.

I tend to agree with you there.

[hermit]

The second edition corebook explained quite a number of vampires avoided to kill their "prey" when draining Essence. Vampires needs what, 3.5 liters of blood a week and one point of Essence a month ? Doesn't seem that horrible to me, unless the target is awakened or you are working for a cyberware manufacturer.

The compassionate vamire you describe is clearly worded as an exception to the rule, at least in German texts (I do not own an English-language 2E core rules book). But yes, they are said to exist. Then again, so did Twist's sister.

@Glyph I agree with you there. The game mechanics disagree, I think

[HunterHerne]

The compassionate vamire you describe is clearly worded as an exception to the rule, at least in German texts (I do not own an English-language 2E core rules book). But yes, they are said to exist. Then again, so did Twist's sister.

@Glyph I agree with you there. The game mechanics disagree, I think

Twist?

As far as I can tell, there is no limitation on what skills a (PC) free spirit can have, so i don't think it disagrees at all. The spirit can grow from it's original mindset and expand its capabilities to attempt to fit in to a world that it is impossibly alien to.

[Sengir]

Or maybe you want to back up your claim that everybody who is not a corp citizen (hint: most SINners are nationals, not corp citizens, check the stats in sourcebooks) has no tangible rights whatsoever?

I said "everybody who is not a mid-level corp employee". Because "class-ism" is a classic cyberpunk theme, for the upstanding white-collar employee a lowly skillwired wageslave is just nothing, an entity whose only value is the ability to provide cheap labor but can be replaced at a moment's notice.

A good deal of information on this is of course in RC, the descriptions of the typical neighborhoods in particular. A somewhat less obvious source is UW, with its chapter on skillsofts and their social impact.

[Stahlseele]

*looks at thread title tiredly*
why has nobody said it yet?
"Wait . . legal vampires? We have those . . they are called lawyers . ."

[Patrick Goodman]

Running Wild lists Amazonia, Asamando, Aztlan, California, Czechia, Basque Country, France, Philippines, Salish-Shidhe and Yakut as "infected-friendly", whatever that means.

I'm a little fuzzy on it, myself, to be honest with you...and I wrote that. I was still reeling from my time away from the game and picking up the Runner's Companion and reading about "Infected rights". I think during that process, Dunner asked me to include that. It's been a while, and I've slept since then, so I don't recall the entire process with crystalline clarity.

Basically, "Infected Friendly" can mean whatever the hell you want it to mean. Some (Asamondo) are clearly more comfortable with the notion than others, but to my way of thinking even they're not too hip on vampires and wendigos camping out in their territory. And that's saying something, IMHO.

[pbangarth]

Actually, it would be pretty interesting, either as a PC or an NPC, to have a free spirit start out as something one-dimensional, such as a wendigo or a valkrie, then start questioning its role, and growing out of it.

Doing that right now in my home game, with a Valkyrie.

EDIT: @HunterHerne: Yes, just about any Skill except those from the Conjuring Group. My little, lost Valkyrie is, however, checking out those spirits in the Mojave desert and that new-fangled "Calling" thing the wiz-kids are talking about.

[Patrick Goodman]

I'm also completely unsure. The only thing I have heard in reference was connected to the Ordo Maximus. I believe it was a Vampire initiatory group/secret society in the UK. But the name escapes me.

Ordo Maximus is an initiatory society in the UK. They take all comers, as long as they have the cash to pay for membership. It is, on the surface at least, a high-society drinking club for people with an interest in hermetic magic.

It's also run by vampires who want to take over the world. At least, to hear some folks tell the tale, it is.

That ghoul nation in Africa. Aren't they ok with fellow infected as long as they aren't the crazy murder everyone and sort them out later type?

Asamando. As I explain somewhere else: Comme ci, comme ca. Even ghouls aren't too happy with wendigos, for instance, if for no other reason than disliking cometition for food.

I recall somewhere that Loup-Garou are considered a lot like Ghouls. They both transmit their affliction via contact (usually biting), they both tend to transform into less-than-human acting creatures, and they can both retain some cognitive function post transformation. They both also only require an amount of metahuman flesh, not soul-draining essance. The monthly rage the Loup-garou have can be medicated away, and they tend to be relatively sane without it (relative to the big kid on the playground with no idea of right and wrong, mind you...). I've also heard mention of a Loup-garou movement similar to the Ghoul one, though not as far spread, or accepted.

New one on me, at least as far as a dedicated group for loup-garou. There's a much-publicized push for "Infected rights", but I'm trying to put the kibosh on that one.

re: "Ain't whistling 'Dixie'"

I believe he's agreeing that is a bad set up

Yep, that it in a nutshell.

Good old Martin.

He's good for stirring shit up. I do hope you like him when the book comes out.

Your writeup has been more along the lines of what I think the Infected should be like.

I want them to be scary again, and I'm trying to make that happen. I'm glad you liked my bit of Running Wild. (Of course, I think everyone should like my work, so I'm pleased when anybody says something nice about it.)

ah, thank you for the translation ^^
i can do english, i can do bad english . . but i never got the hang of redneck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) *runs*

It's honestly not that hard a dialect to pick up....

[DeathStrobe]

You know, a vampire cyber doctor would make a lot of sense. The people the vampire operate on are going to loose essence no matter what, might as well feed first then replace that lost essence with cyberware while the patient is under. And maybe sell the left over body parts to ghouls. I could see a plausible market, a "legal" market here.

[Traul]

Does Essence drained from a vampire leave a hole?

[hermit]

You know, a vampire cyber doctor would make a lot of sense. The people the vampire operate on are going to loose essence no matter what, might as well feed first then replace that lost essence with cyberware while the patient is under. And maybe sell the left over body parts to ghouls. I could see a plausible market, a "legal" market here.

Yeah, because everone is going to trust Dr. Dracula because he technically works according to the rules (if you implant your cyberware in blocks of 1 Essence cost, that is).

There's a much-publicized push for "Infected rights", but I'm trying to put the kibosh on that one.

Please do. It's taking the cuddlyness a few steps to far.

Asamando. As I explain somewhere else: Comme ci, comme ca. Even ghouls aren't too happy with wendigos, for instance, if for no other reason than disliking cometition for food.

Also, Wendigos probably eat them. They prefer the flesh of cannibals anyway (or should, being Wendigos, at least).

Does Essence drained from a vampire leave a hole?

Depends on which edition of Augmentation you use. However, there is a cheap-ass (comparatively) essence regenration method in augmentation especially for healing vampiric essence loss. To make Vampires with a harem of willing food slaves a viable character concept, I suppose (it's the only thing that makes sense).

[Glyph]

I could see a bit of a push for infected rights, just not a serious one, or one that gains any momentum. Even with the Tamir Grey diaries, ghouls are, for the most part, feral creatures. Also, they stink, they look like zombies, and they eat people.

Vampires are even less acceptable, although I could see a push for vampiric rights coming from the angsty goth crowd that romanticizes the bloodsuckers. I could see some emo kid with mascara wearing a V.L.A.D. (Vampiric League Against Discrimination) t-shirt and bitching about all the vampire-haters on his liveblog.

[hermit]

V.L.A.D. (Vampiric League Against Discrimination)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I could see a bit of a push for infected rights, just not a serious one, or one that gains any momentum.

On the same level as NAMBLA, perhaps. And just about as accepted.

[DeathStrobe]

Yeah, because everone is going to trust Dr. Dracula because he technically works according to the rules (if you implant your cyberware in blocks of 1 Essence cost, that is).

Who'd say Dr Dracula would let people know he was infected? He'd probably have a number of magic wards set up to keep out the awakened types to ensure that only mundanes come to his clinic.

[Daddy's Litt...]

I address that, at least a little, in Street Legends. I'm not too wild about "Infected rights" either.

That would be the point of this. a vampire night club 'with real 'live vampires' is going to draw fans and haters. Being legal would mean you could have to be very careful. Popping someone in DC is legal but in Denver it is murder. Just to grab two cities.

[Sengir]

However, there is a cheap-ass (comparatively) essence regenration method in augmentation especially for healing vampiric essence loss.

...which restores 0.1 Essence/Month. Considering that a vampire loses one point of Essence each month, he needs ten people on permanent gene therapy. I'm too lazy to look up the exact price right now, but we are looking at several Million a year - payments to support the donors and keep them in line not included.

[hermit]

Who'd say Dr Dracula would let people know he was infected? He'd probably have a number of magic wards set up to keep out the awakened types to ensure that only mundanes come to his clinic.

You say that like you never go to your Ripperdoc without an armed escort to ensure he behaves well.

...which restores 0.1 Essence/Month. Considering that a vampire loses one point of Essence each month, he needs ten people on permanent gene therapy. I'm too lazy to look up the exact price right now, but we are looking at several Million a year - payments to support the donors and keep them in line not included.

You misremember. Cellular Repair, p. 88, Augmentation. Takes up to 2 months, 15.000/week. Only works on damage done by Essence Drain and Energy Drain. 2 months for 5 Essence amounts to a very sustainable food source for a pampered SR4 vampire.

[Aku]

You say that like you never go to your Ripperdoc without an armed escort to ensure he behaves well.


You misremember. Cellular Repair, p. 88, Augmentation. Takes up to 2 months, 15.000/week. Only works on damage done by Essence Drain and Energy Drain.

Didn't you want to post quotes to back up your claims?

well,at 15,000 a week, that equals 60K a month. It doesnt say how much essence is healed in how much time, so I'll assume 1 week =.75 essence (given that max treatment time is 2 months) Sp, losing 1 essence per month, he could keep 2 people on therapy and keep them alive, for a mere 1.4 million per year.

if my math is right

[hermit]

well,at 15,000 a week, that equals 60K a month. It doesnt say how much essence is healed in how much time, so I'll assume 1 week =.75 essence (given that max treatment time is 2 months) Sp, losing 1 essence per month, he could keep 2 people on therapy and keep them alive, for a mere 1.4 million per year.

Yeah, it doesn't say how fast essence regenerates, because the Companion is so well written.

I'd say, though, 2 months equals 5 Essence, the maximum essence healable. So let's 0,5 essence/week (5/12 actually is 4,667). He'd need one essence per month, so the food slave person would actually regenerate faster than it's being drained if it'd regenerate the whole month. Going by these numbers, we're looking at 2 weeks of treatment for 1 essence regenerated and one essence per month drained. That's 30.000 per month, including, say, a middle lifestyle for the slave person (5000). Makes for 35000 a month, or 420.000 per year. That is totally doable with a small busines you siphon cash off (like a lore shop, or an orichalcum factory). Or even just a good Day Job.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

...which restores 0.1 Essence/Month. Considering that a vampire loses one point of Essence each month, he needs ten people on permanent gene therapy. I'm too lazy to look up the exact price right now, but we are looking at several Million a year - payments to support the donors and keep them in line not included.

70,000 Nuyen the First Month and 20,000 Nuyen Upkeep per month after that. Per Person... for Revitalization Gene Therapy.
Never mind for the Cellular Repair Gene Therapy, as that has already been covered above.

[hermit]

70,000 Nuyen the First Month and 20,000 Nuyen Upkeep per month after that. Per Person...

Yes. It's not viable. Cellular Repair, however, is.