First session retrospective.. Options

[hyphz]

So, I GMed for the first time this afternoon. It was.. um, a bit unusual, and I might like to ask for some tips. Part of the problem was that I hadn't expected to be running this week and had only read in detail the first two sections of O The Run, plus one of the players had borrowed my rulebook for the week to build a character. Still..

We got three runners in the end. Caine, an elf with stupid Infiltration and a sniper rifle. Dawg, a dwarf shaman who was also a whiskey-addicted hobo; and a third guy. I can't remember the third guy's name, so I'll just call him Three. I can't remember his name because he stopped participating about halfway through the session, but basically he was the result of the player trying to get a massive Automatics pool.

First discovery is that only Caine has any contacts. He has one contact, a fixer. Not wanting to get into NPC generation I decide that this fixer is Smiley, from the OTR NPC list. They get the reference to Infinity.

Second discovery is that only Caine has a vehicle - a bike. He decides to let the other two take the bus as a lesson. We then find that neither of them has a SIN either. Caine, exasperated, loans them the money to get a taxi (I'm not sure if private transport requires a SIN, but figured to move things on)

So, they pull up a block or so from Infinity and I've asked them what they are planning to take with them. When they see the bouncers at the front of the club, they realise the significance of the question, in that taking Caine"s highly illegal Sniper Rifle and Three's Assault Rifle into the club might be a bit difficult. Retreating, they come up with a plan. Dawg summons a Force 3 Spirit of Man, gives it Improved Invisibility as an optional power, gets 3 favors, and asks it to cast and sustain Improved Invisibility on Caine. Three gives Caine his assault rifle, and he rolls his 21(!) infiltration to sneak past the bouncers invisibily, timing it so that when the guns set off the MAD the bouncers will blame someone else.

This leads to question 1. I know that just rolling Infiltration isn't an instant solution to anything stealth related normally, but throwing in Invisibility seems to bring that problem right back because I can hardly ask the player to describe how he is walking to avoid making any noise. Is there a recommended way of dealing with this?

So, Caine gets in with the guns, and Dawg and Three follow - and are turned away by the bouncers. Largely because Three is wearing an armour jacket and nothing else on his top half, Dawg is also wearing armour with gel packs attached to every and I do mean every location, and both of them are Street lifestyle. After some embarrassment, Dawg asks the spirit to scout out the club for him.

Question 2. Can spirits go through astral shielding? I didn't check at the time because having the players not find out that Johnson was waiting for them in a shielded room wasn't a critical point, but still. It again seems really powerful to have creatures that can basically just scout anything.

When the spirit gets back, Dawg then asks it to cast and sustain Confusion on one of the guards. I screwed up here, of course this should have been illegal because a Force 3 spirit can have only one spell. But it did so, leaving one guard reeling and baffled. After some doubt about whether the spirit would now leave, having completed its favours and being unbound, it seemed from the rules that it would stick around until sunrise to keep the spells sustained since part of the favours was to sustain them. Seeing that Confusion hadn't really helped, Dawg debated casting Mob Mind on the guards, but thought better of it.

Question 3. Mob Mind / Control Thoughts. These just seem ridiculous - the target gets a single Willpower roll to resist, and if they fail, the mage can then just telepathically command "shoot yourself" with a simple action and they do. Is that really intended? Also, how does it work with initiative and timing?

Meanwhile, Caine calls up Three on his commlink to ask where he is, and finds out about the bouncers. In the interest of moving things on, I allow Caine - who is still invisible - to let them both in through a window in the Gents'. He then hands off the sniper rifle and assault rifle to Dawg and Three respectively. Dawg has the spirit drop the invisibility on Caine, and then himself casts it on himself and Three.

Question 4. With Dawg's high stats, he got most of these spells for free. Seriously?

So, Caine goes down and meets Sarissa, getting the details of Johnson's room from her. I skipped over Sarissa fishing for a bribe since things had gotten complex enough already, but she did sell him a beer, which he took up to the conference room with him and went it to meet Johnson. This went well, except that when Johnson offered them a drink, Dawg called out "whiskey!" forgetting he was invisible, alerting Johnson to something being up; Dawg then turned invisibility off, leaving the runners to explain why two guys with huge illegal guns had apparently been trying to sneak into the room with the Johnson. I fudged him into being VERY understanding of the situation..

So. Legwork. The team only have one contact, but he has Connection 6 Loyalty 6. He gets back to them with Nabo's details, and the three bundle out through the Gents' again and head over to Caine's place to crash and plan.

Question 5. By the legwork rules it seems that after the first "does the contact themselves know" roll, every contact is the same, because they're just rolling Connections. So might as well have just one contact, since if they're connected enough, they can do the job of a thousand. Is that intended?

Caine decides to search the Matrix for information about Nabo, his concert, and the venue. Here I run into the "Data Search extended test interval is so low, anyone can find out everything in an hour" problem. Since Caine's data search isn't great I compromise; Caine finds out all the listed info about Nabo, plus Jager's name, but not Jager's weakness. Three dropped out of the game at this point to fire up Chummer and "make his character more useful".

Meanwhile, Caine and Dawg rode down to the concert venue on Caine's bike. I decided that the concert was the next day, so the warehouse was empty at the time they arrived, figuring they'd get set up during the following day (you can set up quickly when you have Trolls to do the heavy lifting, right?). Caine walked around the warehouse, turned on his Recording units to take notes for the plan, and then fired his Grapple Gun up to the roof to go inspect it. He then realised his Climbing pool was 1. So, Dawg levitated him up, then flew up himself, and used Magic Fingers to open the skylight latch from the inside.

Question six. Visual range spells can work through glass, right? I'm still used to DnD4e with its distinction between lines of sight and effect.

So Caine was gently levitated down into the empty warehouse, was turned invisible again, and decided to hide on the internal roof of one of the warehouse offices. At this point, Dawg suggested that he might as well go home, since he could keep Caine invisible all night without needing his presence there.

Question 7. By RAW, it seems he's right. Casting has range, but sustaining doesn't seem to. Or does it?

Caine and Dawg decide to spend the night in the warehouse and be ready when the concert is set up. Dawg pulls Caine out again onto the roof and cancels the invisibility. After being told that sending a Spirit of Man to go get them some munchies would probably result in a seriously freaked out shopkeeper, Caine ordered a pizza and beer delivery a block or two away and went down to pick it up. They then both ate and drank well and went to sleep on the warehouse roof.

Question 8. I have a feeling I was being really generous by letting them get away with that, but on the other hand, ruling that they got discovered would seem to be hosing them. Are there guidelines for this sort of thing? I know that the "all-in trick" (setting things up so that the GM has to let something succeed because its failure would trash the whole adventure) shouldn't be allowed to rule but I could really do with some more knowledge of what might be going on in the area..

So, when they woke up, Caine dropped back into the warehouse invisibly to wait on the office roof, and Dawg did his best to stay out of sight on the roof, away from the edges and skylights, while sending Watchers to keep an eye on the outside. They sit and watch as a bunch of orks and trolls pull up, set up the bar and soundstage, escort Nabo and his friend and groupies into the office, and the concert gets into full swing.

Caine drops down from the office roof, still invisible. He opens the door to Caine's room, "making it look like it just fell open". The guy in there calls the guard to close the door, so Caine dives into the room and sees the commlink on the floor. He doesn't have Exploit, but asks if he can access the commlink remotely.

Question 9. Per the adventure the commlink is unsecured and requires only a simple Computer+Logic test, but that's if the character is holding it. What about accessing it remotely?

Caine waited in the room until the guard opened the door to warn about the riot outside, then slipped out behind him with another silly Infiltration check. He made his escape, and Dawg's watcher helpfully informed him that Caine's astral form had left the building (did I mention Dawg had no commlink?) and he bailed for the bike as well.

And there things ended, seeming curiously unsatisfactory. The players said they had enjoyed the session, but I got the feeling they were disappointed there wasn't a fight.

[Aku]

Ok, lots of questions, hopefully some answers:

Invisability is visual only, so while they can sneak by with it, they can't do it while screaming "neener neener you cant see me!"

2: I'm assuming you mean a ward, and the answer is no. Wards are basically like a membrane surrounding an area, something passes through astrally, then the owner(s) is/are alerted

3) not really, as a person no matter what, won't do something completely against their nature

5)No, a contact should only be useful with in thier fields. with a fixer, that can be a lot of things. Sure, he can get you a hold of someone "in" the mafia, but it's probably not exactly the person you need, and whoever he does get you in contact with, doesnt know you from a hole in the ground.

6/7)yes, you can see through glass astrally, so yes you are correct.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I would say it depends on WHERE this warehouse was. if its in a decent enough area, you can bet theres at least a handful of police drones flying around that could see them.

[hyphz]

Thanks!

Just to clarify though, I understand the limits of Invisibility in that it doesn't stop hearing, smell, touch etc. The problem is that most of the things a character could do to prevent being heard, smelt, touched etc are too easily abstracted into a single Infiltration roll. Which means an Infiltration hyper specialist with invisibility can ride roughshod over any amount of non-astral security. No amount of Infiltration can let you walk down a white corridor in an orange suit but can it let you tipdown a corridor with squeaky floorboards without them squeaking? Can it let you slip through a crowd without someone touching you and realising they don't see anyone there? Describing what a PC is wearing to sneak is easy, but for the other two you'd be asking the players to describe their PC's muscle contractions.

[Glyph]

For 3), remember that the target gets a test every (Force) Combat turns, which keeps on reducing the mage's number of successes until the spell is gone. Also remember that this spell will leave an astral signature, and remember the rules for noticing spells. A lot of GMs do disallow mental manipulation spells, or house rule them to make them less powerful.

4) I don't know where the player is getting this from. Characters get free Knowledge Skills equal to their Intuition + Logic x 3, but spells cost 3 BP per spell.

On the spirit - Confusion is actually a spirit power, not a spell. The spirit would stick around from sunrise to sunset if the player had it actually sustain its power that long - but sustaining a confusion power on a guard that long would get people investigating it, and there is magical security. Once the confusion power was no longer being sustained, the spirit would have departed if that was its last service. Note that having it use a spell or power, stop, then do so again, counts as two services.


On the infiltration - you don't need to really have the player describe out all of the details. Just assign a dice pool penalty for things that make it more difficult. Things like a crowd with lots of people he could brush up against, dust where he would leave footprints, and so on. Don't be afraid to assign penalties - that high dice pool is only their chance to succeed under optimum conditions.

[Aku]

Unfortunately, infiltration,and invisability, are things that will cause necks to break around here, for the exact reasons you're stating. What I would do is use some negative modifiers for conditions not in the characters favor, but not directly related to the perciever, like trying to move through a crowd, while invisable, someone can easily bump into that person, and i think a neg mod reflects that better than a positve one for the guards etc.

[hyphz]

Another thing that confused me. In spite of all the references in the rulebook to some spells having minimum thresholds, it seems none actually do! Is that right?

[Tanegar]

Levitate has a threshold of 1 per 200kg of the object or person's mass. Detection spells, like Assensing, have a stepped threshold that determines how much information the mage can gather. There might be a few others.

[Glyph]

Some spells with ongoing effects use their net hits as a threshold that must be resisted by someone who might be affected by that spell - resisting an illusion such as phantasm after the initial casting, crossing an area affected by an ice sheet, and so on. The increase reflexes spell has thresholds that must be met to have a given increase to initiative and initiative passes by a given level. Beating an item's object resistance is a common threshold for for direct combat spells and some manipulation spells such as ignite and fix.

One other thing to keep in mind about invisibility is that it is a single sense illusion. Not only sound and scent, but sensors such as cyberscanners and MAD scanners can detect the character. Also, unless the character is using improved invisibility, it won't affect technological sensors such as cameras at all.


Overall, I think you did a damn fine job for your first outing as a GM. You didn't let yourself get bogged down and kept the game moving, but still made notes on some things to check up on later. And some people might think you were a bit too lenient on the PCs, but my attitude is that you are playing for fun, not to get technically scored on it. Like you, they are new. You just want to make sure they learn as they go (things like no SINs or contacts being not a good thing, etc.), but it looks like you have a good handle on that.

[Manunancy]

One thing you should do is to persuade your players to invest some of their cahs and XP into getting some more reasonable hardware for just that sort of situation - when meeting a Johnson a lined coat and a pistol are usually more than enough gear. And let you get into most places you're likely to meet mr J.

Dumping some cash into at least a low lifestyle will also give them access to VERY important facility : a shower. Add a sink an a mirror, this will let them show for a meeting clean and shaven. Which will do wonder for their employability. Basically if they come in looking (and smelling) like your average street bum decked in commando gear, no Johnson in his right mind will hire them for a job that requires them to hang around any remotely respectable place. Kicking gangers butt, break-ins into remot facilites and slumming trhough the Barrens should be the only sort of job they'll get until they get the hint. Also, if they look (and again, smell) like bums, they'll will get paid like bums....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Just a few things...

2: I'm assuming you mean a ward, and the answer is no. Wards are basically like a membrane surrounding an area, something passes through astrally, then the owner(s) is/are alerted.

Well, you can use Masking to penetrate a Ward without alerting the caster. Some spirits may know this technique, thogh not likely a summoned one.

6/7 )yes, you can see through glass astrally, so yes you are correct.

Actually, while glass is potentially transparent on the physical reealm, it is completely opaque in the Astral. You cannot see through glass on the astral at all. It is treated as a wall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bushw4cker]

I would have a dozen or so pre-made characters for players that have never played shadowrun before. Let them transfer Karma to new character once they understand rules.

[Neurosis]

Why did they feel they NEEDED sniper and assault rifles in the meeting???

The beginning of this post is shaping up like one for the C.L.U.E. files.

Edit:

4) No, no, not at all, definitely not.

[HunterHerne]

If question 4, about the getting spells for free, is about the drain: Yes, it is possible. However, make sure they are using the formula correctly, and adding half force to the drain value. If they are using low force spells to avoid that, then keep in mind the spell's maximum number of hits are limited. The invisibility spell isn't as useful when the guards roll willpower to overcome the threshold of a force 1 spell.

[hyphz]

Thanks for all your replies - I'm very grateful for them (and for the comments). Yes, I have read the CLUE files, and rolling up to the Infinity with two heavy rifles in tow did seem to be going that way, but I knew my players were in learning mode so it didn't turn out that way (and I think they are rejigging their characters as a result, which I'm happy with).

(On the other hand, that GM in the CLUE files who responded to the player saying "I pull the bomb off the building and throw it down" with "Ok but you didn't say you were disarming it so it goes off and blows a hole in the sidewalk" was just being a pedantic ass IMHO)

My main concerns were:

a) I'm bothered by Invisibility+Infiltration, it seems it could turn much of the stealth of the game into a rolling contest rather than something that needs to be planned and played out in an entertaining way.

b) I'm bothered about Dawg, he seems incredibly powerful. Caine took the time to set themselves up with a Grapple Gun and associated things, including using monowire rope so others can't climb after him, only to find Dawg can stand in for all that with a single spell - and at zero cost because most of the time he was resisting all the drain. (I'm not sure about this - I checked the rulebook again last night and in many of the examples it seems that the number of net hits is added to the drain, but this seems to be only listed as an optional rule for combat spells only. Various bits also mention that "the drain value of a spell cannot go below 1" but not the section on actually resisting drain..) Now of course On The Run doesn't really have magical hazards or defenses until a couple of encounters in, which might change things. But still.

(HunterHerne: he was casting Improved Invisibility at force 4, or force 3 from his spirit. The guards statted in On The Run have 3 Willpower - I know Improved Invis is actually resisted with Intuition but I didn't realize that and ended up rolling Willpower, and they have Intuition of something like 2 anyway - so they need a perfect roll to break the spell.)

[HunterHerne]

The drain value can go below 1, but they can resist the entire drain value.

Magic does have many advantages over using physical objects, as you have mentioned. especially when the opposition doesn't have magical aid. Once the awakened start getting into the fray, Caine will feel a lot more pressure. Just remember, a fall from 15 meters hurts if they can counterspell the levitation.

[Glyph]

(On the other hand, that GM in the CLUE files who responded to the player saying "I pull the bomb off the building and throw it down" with "Ok but you didn't say you were disarming it so it goes off and blows a hole in the sidewalk" was just being a pedantic ass IMHO)

Yeah, I remember a lot of things in there that were flat out GM dickery. Stuff like someone throwing a grappling hook and the GM going "You didn't say you were attaching a rope to the end of it."

On the spells: Oh, so you were talking about Drain. That's not as big a deal. A competently built mage should soak Drain most of the time. They wouldn't be very playable characters, otherwise. They need to roll for it, every time, though. The rules for "buying hits" are not applicable when the character can suffer bad things from failing the test! It is only for getting through simple, easy tasks without rolling for everything.

Generally, mages are powerful, in the sense of being incredibly versatile, although they tend to be more "squishy" than augmented characters once combat starts.

For invisibility, keep in mind cameras, sensors, physical barriers (a locked door can stop an invisible character cold, and even an unlocked door can raise a guard's suspicions if it seems to open itself), guard animals, spirits, wards, noise, footprints, and tripwires.

Don't be afraid to use these kinds of countermeasures, or feel like you're being cheesy if you do so. They have had magic, and invisibility, for decades in SR4. They know it's out there, and planning to counter it should be standard for any decent security setup! That doesn't mean that invisibility isn't a great spell, but it shouldn't be an "I win" button. It can help them get past security, but they need to do their "homework" and know that there is a pressure plate here, a locked door there, a dog run there, etc.

[Neurosis]

Remember Invisibility technically only inflicts a penalty of Force on Perception tests to spot the invisible character.

More importantly (but less on topic) man I miss the CLUE files.

[Bodak]

At this point, Dawg suggested that he might as well go home, since he could keep Caine invisible all night without needing his presence there.

Question 7. By RAW, it seems he's right. Casting has range, but sustaining doesn't seem to. Or does it?

Street Magic has an example of a spirit activating Guard (a Physical power) on a target and then going back to the Astral. That shows spirit powers need to satisfy targeting requirements to activate but then those requirements can be broken and the power sustained even from a different plane (though not a metaplane admittedly).

The SR4 FAQ does say:

Do you need to maintain line of sight (or touch, with Touch range spells) to sustain a spell? What about Permanent spells?
A spell requires a magical link (touch, sight, material link, symbolic link, etc.) to cast. There is, however, no requirement for the magician to maintain touch or line-of-sight while maintaining the spell

6/7)yes, you can see through glass astrally, so yes you are correct.

That's how it used to be in SR3 but that has been reversed in SR4. See here.

[Tanegar]

Remember Invisibility technically only inflicts a penalty of Force on Perception tests to spot the invisible character.

You're thinking of the critter power Concealment, which inflicts a penalty equal to the critter's Magic. Invisibility works a little differently.

[Aku]

Street Magic has an example of a spirit activating Guard (a Physical power) on a target and then going back to the Astral. That shows spirit powers need to satisfy targeting requirements to activate but then those requirements can be broken and the power sustained even from a different plane (though not a metaplane admittedly).

The SR4 FAQ does say:

That's how it used to be in SR3 but that has been reversed in SR4. See here.

I donno, if i were GM, i think i might houserule the no LoS needed to maintain, or atleast, make it a (large) radius around the caster, so they dont need to SEE the person, any longer, but they still need to be in semi close proximity something like, magic x 100 meters?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I donno, if i were GM, i think i might houserule the no LoS needed to maintain, or atleast, make it a (large) radius around the caster, so they dont need to SEE the person, any longer, but they still need to be in semi close proximity something like, magic x 100 meters?

What? You mean like the standard rule that a spirit must remain within Magic x 100 meters or be on a Remote Service (Which uses all Services up)? You mean something like that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Not sure why everyone forgets about that one...

[Mardrax]

You're thinking of the critter power Concealment, which inflicts a penalty equal to the critter's Magic. Invisibility works a little differently.

Stacking the two, however, works wonders. Put some ruthenium armor on top too while you're at it.

[Aku]

What? You mean like the standard rule that a spirit must remain within Magic x 100 meters or be on a Remote Service (Which uses all Services up)? You mean something like that? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Not sure why everyone forgets about that one...

Well, the same rule doesnt apply for mages, as far as i can tell from that. it SEEMS like the FAQ quote (if you read the FAQ as cannon answers) the the mage can hang out in his aspected house, drop buffs on the team, and let them go their merry way.

[sabs]

Why did the bar not have a camera on the front door? That camera gets to tell invisibility to go frag off. You need improved invisibility, and a force 6 spell to even get 1 success.

Always layer your protections.
Bouncers at the door
Camera monitored by a spider or an agent (probably agent)
MAD scanner

Police drones running around would see them sleeping on the roof.
If the commlink is unsecured, no reason to not let him use wireless to connect to it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the same rule doesnt apply for mages, as far as i can tell from that. it SEEMS like the FAQ quote (if you read the FAQ as cannon answers) the the mage can hang out in his aspected house, drop buffs on the team, and let them go their merry way.

True... Mages do not have the same restriction... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)