Electronic Warfare Specializations, Should they just cease to exist? Options

[Spornoc]

I've been trying to figure out Electronic Warfare and it's specializations as part of making a rigger. I can't figure out all the Specializations for electronic warfare. Encryption and jamming are obvious, but communication and sensor operation are harder to determine. I'd guess communications has to do with intercept and ECM/ECCM, but sensor operations is perplexing.

Does anyone know?

[KarmaInferno]

Personally, I'd have made Electronic Warfare a specialization of Hacking.




-k

[Mardrax]

Sensor operations might well include Detect Hidden Nodes.

[Udoshi]

Personally, I'd have made Electronic Warfare a specialization of Hacking.

This was how it was in 4th, i think.

Before they decided to move Decryption over to EW instead of Hacking.
and forgot to give the sprites the skills to use the complex forms they already had. WHUPS.

[Mardrax]

This was how it was in 4th, i think.

Before they decided to move Decryption over to EW instead of Hacking.
and forgot to give the sprites the skills to use the complex forms they already had. WHUPS.

EW was it's own skill in SR4 as well. Same specs listed.

[sabs]

The problem with riggers, is that technically, they don't need any of the hacker/computer skills.

EW: Don't use it very often. The only time to use it is for on the fly jamming, which is potentially really good if you have a pimped out dicepool. If you install ECCM 6 on all your drones. (optimization 3, ergonomic), you don't even need an EW skill. That only kicks the Availability to a 14R, while that's out of reach for Character Generation, it's more than valid for afterwards. If you're a bit nervous you can get it at ECCM 5 with the same program options for 12R out of char gen. That makes your drones immune to jamming up to rating 8.


For 12R you can defeat an area jammer ratign 8 which is 24F availability, or a Rating 8 Directional Jammer whcih is 16F availability. That's pretty sweet. In the long run, you want to get your signal rating to a 4, and be able to run the ECCM 6, which will make you immune to the Rating 10 jammers, which are literally the top of the line.

Riggers who just want to drive cars, and run around in drones do not need:
Hacking
Computer
Software
Electronic Warfare
CyberCombat
Hardware
Data Search (though this MIGHT be useful for finding pirated pilot programs)

[KarmaInferno]

Heck, many of those can be bought as Profession Autosofts for drones.

"Why would I need to know how to fix a commlink? Widget here has two hands and a Hardware Autosoft!"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)




-k

[LurkerOutThere]

Theoretically such a rigger could exist, why anyone would hire them is another matter. (and his drones) are a liability. If he just drives the getaway car all he does is drive the getaway car, he's not contributing any of his team most of the time. Further lots of things can be done to getaway cards even if you turn the wireless off. Without cybercombat his drones are vulnerable to the enemy security spiders as is his car really unless he's running wireless off.

[sabs]

But then he's not really a rigger, he's a hacker with pilot skills.
It's a problem that you cannot have a Rigger anymore, you either must be a Hacker with some Pilot skills, or a Streetsam who relies on the good grace of others. And also, because your GM might have told you, riggers are okay, but you're not allowed to HAVE hacking or Cybercombat. (I had that happen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[KarmaInferno]

Theoretically such a rigger could exist, why anyone would hire them is another matter. (and his drones) are a liability. If he just drives the getaway car all he does is drive the getaway car, he's not contributing any of his team most of the time. Further lots of things can be done to getaway cards even if you turn the wireless off. Without cybercombat his drones are vulnerable to the enemy security spiders as is his car really unless he's running wireless off.

That can be solved with even more gear.

Firewalls go up to rating 10 these days, and there's really nothing stopping a rigger from installing a nexus in his drones, running a small army of defensive Agents & IC. Not to mention non-radio based wireless is pretty easy to set up.

It is much easier for an individual rigger to upgrade his gear to the point where only an elite hacker might threaten him, than it is for every corp to equip every facility that the rigger might hit with that elite hacker.

And riggers do more than just drive. This is why I never understood having separate "drone riggers" and "vehicle riggers" - there's no reason not to be both. A properly set up rigger is an army unto himself.


-k

[Mardrax]

Theoretically such a rigger could exist, why anyone would hire them is another matter. (and his drones) are a liability. If he just drives the getaway car all he does is drive the getaway car, he's not contributing any of his team most of the time. Further lots of things can be done to getaway cards even if you turn the wireless off. Without cybercombat his drones are vulnerable to the enemy security spiders as is his car really unless he's running wireless off.

He can just run his drones with a non-wireless connection.
Also, why would you need cybercombat if you have an agent without copy protection and an attack program?

[Cheops]

Theoretically such a rigger could exist, why anyone would hire them is another matter. (and his drones) are a liability. If he just drives the getaway car all he does is drive the getaway car, he's not contributing any of his team most of the time. Further lots of things can be done to getaway cards even if you turn the wireless off. Without cybercombat his drones are vulnerable to the enemy security spiders as is his car really unless he's running wireless off.

Now he has more points to spend on stuff like: perception, dodge, gunnery, automatics, automotive mechanics, stealth, shadowing, etc.

He becomes a lot more versatile by not trying to be a shittier version of the team's hacker. The hacker does a much better job being a secondary rigger than vice versa.

[suoq]

Riggers who just want to drive cars, and run around in drones do not need:
Hacking
Computer
Software
Electronic Warfare
CyberCombat
Hardware
Data Search (though this MIGHT be useful for finding pirated pilot programs)

I'm not comfortable with the thought of a rigger who can't steal a car/drone. But that's just me.

I don't think there's a point to being a secondary hacker. Unrestricted Agents, autosofts, and the piracy rules make it easier to build a secondary hacker in a pocket than be one.

[LurkerOutThere]

That can be solved with even more gear.

Firewalls go up to rating 10 these days, and there's really nothing stopping a rigger from installing a nexus in his drones, running a small army of defensive Agents & IC. Not to mention non-radio based wireless is pretty easy to set up.

It is much easier for an individual rigger to upgrade his gear to the point where only an elite hacker might threaten him, than it is for every corp to equip every facility that the rigger might hit with that elite hacker.

And riggers do more than just drive. This is why I never understood having separate "drone riggers" and "vehicle riggers" - there's no reason not to be both. A properly set up rigger is an army unto himself.


-k

See I don't buy this, any gear that's available to your elite rigger is just as available to the elite corp hacker who thanks the speed and accessibility of cyberspace can be anywhere on the planet in microseconds. I would put forth that if you are allowing players to put nexus in their drones the corps should be doing the same or equipping similar better gear. If the super elite rigger speak of is not running the corps where is the getting the money to pay for his expensive toys.

Drone rigging has always struck as one fo the poorest places to actually go head to head with serious opposition. Becaus the moment you pull the semi trailer full of signal 4 combat drones everyone in the area you are there or your big expensive drones have a variety of problems that security design can exploit.

I've always felt that some stupid theoretical shit that makes the game unplayable shouldn't be used as an example case. If the drone rigger is running the agent smith army, why isn't the corp, if the corp the agent smith army then the hacker can't play. If the hacker can't play the team has to ruip the guts out of every maglock they come to in order to get past the door (or blow it open) you've just slipped from showrunning to "broad fucking sight running" BFSR's don't live very long at my tables.

[sabs]

I can steal a car/drone using my pocket hacking agent.
Also, has a rigger, I've got skillwires of 3.. so I can slot hardware 3 when needed, or the occasional pilot program he hasn't learned yet.

[LurkerOutThere]

Re-read my post, thought i'd clarify it's not that your point isn't valid, but i'm always a little amused by the hyper specialization builds on here and how poorly they'd do the moment their pushed out of their comfort zone. Call it GM fiat call it what you will but such builds are usually extremely vulnerable when something not according to their plan happens. That's why in my opinion any rigger without EW and cracking at the very least is a liability, it's like having a sys admin who only works on the MAC OS. Sure they might technically have the job title, but their not going to have any serious respect outside their immediate circle of cronies.

[KarmaInferno]

That's the thing. That rigger isn't necessarily "hyperspecialised". The way SR rules run, you can be the above rigger AND be a Face AND a gun bunny and possibly one or two other things. I find it a little amusing that you call it 'hyperspecialized" anyhow. A rigger spending the build points on other stuff, instead of on matrix skills to defend his vehicles and be a better rigger, sounds like the OPPOSITE of hyperspecializing to me.

As for elite hackers, I am not saying that you never run into them, but most of the time you will not.

Will said rigger have trouble if they run into an elite hacker? Sure. But so would anyone.

Honestly, against an elite hacker, "a few points" in EW or the like isn't going to do much anyhow. You might as well not have any and rely on the gear. So you're not quite as good as the guy who spent a bunch of points on matrix skills to defend himself. Guess what? That elite hacker will rip though you both just the same. Only you have BP to spare that the skills guy does not.

From a strict numbers point of view you have to expend a significant amount of resources to raise your skills be as good as that gear. I can spend 30 BP in skills and still not be as good as that gear that cost me maybe 5-10 BP in nuyen.

At the end of the day, it's just numbers.


-k

[suoq]

I can steal a car/drone using my pocket hacking agent.

The what's the use of having a rigger with car/drones? The corps have more pocket agents than the team does.

And feel free to slot that skill that can't be edged. It's quite possibly less dice than not having the skill and using a soft capped edge on the roll. While I was once a fan of skillwires, I'm now much more of a fan than skill 1 or 2 over skillwires.

[suoq]

From a strict numbers point of view you have to expend a significant amount of resources to raise your skills be as good as that gear. I can spend 30 BP in skills and still not be as good as that gear that cost me maybe 5-10 BP in nuyen.

This is extremely true under the piracy/copy rules. With piracy the hacker should be at the top of his game and should have agents that make having an assist on the team pointless. Likewise, the targets are either laughably bad (as statted out, especially stuff that can't be improved like running hidden) or insanely difficult (the corp using the hacking gear from WAR).

[sabs]

Uh, my rigger has like 11 dice for using hardware to crack open a lock? That's more than plenty.
Logic 7 + hardware 3 + PuSHeD 1 +2 AR enhanced gives you 13d6. That's not even adding some situational modifiers.

(and before you freak out at Logic 7, that's a natural logic of 5, and a Rating 2 Cerebral Booster. I also often use Restricted gear to get the Cerebral Booster Rating 3.

Sure, being able to Edge that would be nice, but I don't NEED that many hits to crack open a car with a hardware skill. Hardware+logic(device ratingx2, 1 combat turn) extended test. + hardware toolkit, + modifiers from the build/repair table.
So you've got 13 dice, needing 6 successes. if I rule of 4 it, that's 2 combat turns, and I have a shot at getting it in 1 shot.

[Udoshi]

EW was it's own skill in SR4 as well. Same specs listed.

Yes. But its main use, however, was different.