[X] My Assistant

[Megu]

So, I'm going to be running a campaign this fall set in Vietnam/Laos, centered around the conflict there between the Vietnamese military and the hilltribes. There's a couple things I'm wondering about.

First, is the average Vietnamese conscript likely to have things like milspec armor? I'm not sure whether they'd try and be cheap about equipping them or give them the full gear, even if it's twenty grand. Secondly, would they go with skillwire implantations or actual training? One saves on training and time, the other saves on implantation and allows for skill to increase. What are your thoughts, Dumpshock?

[Critias]

I hope someone's got the links handy.

[Synner667]

Look to the real world and realise that soldiers in 3rd world countries don't get access to the same stuff as soldiers in the 1st world.

That won't change in the future.

Soldiers in the 1st world aren't likely to get skillwires, boosted reflexes or milspec armour as a matter of course - because they're grunts, whose job is to die.

This may come as a surprise to you, but soldiers are trained in a lot more than point guns and pull trigger, so if they were going to implant all the required skills and experience that would cost more than the basic training.

Conscripts in a 3rd world country will probably get minimum training and probably minimum gear, because their armies won't have the budget for much of anything - like in real life warzones.

[UmaroVI]

My thinking on the topic is this. You don't want to half-ass equip someone - you want to go for either cheap, or good, but you don't want to spend tens of thousands of nuyen getting someone fancy guns and skillwires but not armor. Second, training takes a lot of time. You probably do want some soldiers who have actual for real training and to give them good gear - but if you're going to be picking up conscripts, you might just want to slap in some 'ware and send them to the front lines. So I'm going to assume what you have is a schmuck with 3s in all stats and no relevant skills at all.

The "cheap" setup is going to pretty simple - Ingram White Knight (2000) with an extra Auto-Adjusting Weight (150Y), Smartlink (400), Shock Pad (50), and some IP-boosting drugs, probably Cram. Slap on goggles with Smartlink (450Y) and you have a functional albeit crappy soldier who costs you only about 3000Y to equip and whose gear can be easily given to someone else when he bites it. They'll roll 4 dice to shoot people, but with the ability to long burst/short burst with no recoil, most people won't have any dice to dodge, and if they manage to live long enough to learn Heavy Weapons 1, they'll roll 6 dice. You could pay a lot more to make them a bit better, but you start hitting diminishing returns very fast.

The "good" setup is less simple. Secondhand Wired Reflexes 1 (2.4 essence), a secondhand cyberarm customized for +3 agility and with another +3 agility enhancement and a +3 armor enhancement (1.2 essence), Skillwires 1 (.24 essence), Automatics 1 skillsoft. Red Samurai Armor with Strength Upgrade 2 and Mobility Upgrade 3, and give them an Ingram SuperMach 100 with a Gyrostabilizer, Smartlink, and mod on Gas Vent 2.

This is reasonably pricey, about 50,000 nuyen, but what you get out of it is someone who can roll 12 dice to shoot people twice per pass with narrow long bursts, which will take down almost anyone pretty fast. They get 2 IPs, and have heavy enough armor that they will nearly always be taking Stun rather than Physical (and thus are likely to live to fight another day even if they go down).

[Hida Tsuzua]

The "cheap" setup is going to pretty simple - Ingram White Knight (2000) with an extra Auto-Adjusting Weight (150Y), Smartlink (400), Shock Pad (50), and some IP-boosting drugs, probably Cram. Slap on goggles with Smartlink (450Y) and you have a functional albeit crappy soldier who costs you only about 3000Y to equip and whose gear can be easily given to someone else when he bites it. They'll roll 4 dice to shoot people, but with the ability to long burst/short burst with no recoil, most people won't have any dice to dodge, and if they manage to live long enough to learn Heavy Weapons 1, they'll roll 6 dice. You could pay a lot more to make them a bit better, but you start hitting diminishing returns very fast.

You don't need the shock pad. The White Knight comes with one. Also I'll armor the guys. I'll get an Armor Vest and a secure PPP helmet for 6/6 armor for 700Y.

[UmaroVI]

Whoops, you're right about the shock pad. Yeah, the armor is probably worth it.

[CanRay]

Bah! They get two sticks and a rock. And the platoon has to share the rock!!!

[PoliteMan]

They get 2 IPs, and have heavy enough armor that they will nearly always be taking Stun rather than Physical (and thus are likely to live to fight another day even if they go down).

I think the armor point is important. Anything that allows a trooper to survive will save an army on equipment and training.

I honestly don't see low grade soldiers being common because of the proliferation of drones. It's very difficult to get a cheap soldier who can compete with drones, for the following reasons:
#1 It's very difficult to get a metahuman to 3 IP without either ware, magic, or crippling drug addictions.
#2 Training is very expensive, compared to uploading a few easily duplicated/pirated autosofts.
#3 Drones don't take stun damage, which is critical against bursts. If you fire an assault rifle with burst at an armor 9 drone, the drone has a good chance of simply ignoring it, while a human will be knocked out unless they dodge it.
#4 No recoil modifier means drones with bigger guns and longer bursts then metahumans, which is a big difference in terms of lethality.
#5 Public opinion. A thousand dead metahumans is a tragedy, a thousand destroyed drones is not.
#6. Versatility. Drones can fly, travel at high speeds, don't eat, don't sleep, and can instantly be uploaded with new autosofts to change their skills from combat to infiltration to medicine. Just equipping a metahuman with equivalent used skillwires costs more than many drones and autosofts have a clear costs advantage over skillsofts.

To put it another way, a Ford LEBD with an Ingram White Knight, and an armor upgrade is going to cost about 7-7.5 thousand. It flies, has 3 IP, can only be damaged by heavy weapons or APDS ammo, can have it's skills instantly upgraded, and can easily tie into tacents and communicate with the rest of the army. A Steel Lynx will cost about the same, is faster, won't be able to fly, will have heavier armor, and comes with it's own autosofts. It's very difficult to imagine any metahuman soldier who can compete with that at a comparable cost.

The communications point is also very important. I think the conscript Umaro outlined is fairly solid but he doesn't have a commlink, in fact, the only way for him to communicate with anybody else in his team, much less army, is shouting. If one army can communicate and coordinate instantly, and the other can't, then the non-Matrix army is going to be torn apart. However, building and distributing comms that can stand up to botnets, much less real hackers, increases their costs substantially.

Another point, APDS ammo will be king. Stick & Shock is still great but it will only disable drones and metahumans. If you want to kill, you need to get past armor and get it low enough to do physical damage. That means APDS.

Edited, because I didn't actually answer the OP.

A think the typical conscript will be carrying a HK MP-5 TX ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 550), 3 clips of regular ammo ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 60), Armor Vest with Secure PP Helm ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 700, like Hida suggested), a survival kit ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100), a rating 2 Micro transceiver ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 400), and 2 doses of Jazz ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 150). Total Cost: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 1,960 I would say most of them are in boot camp for 2-3 weeks and skills of 2 (skill level of a military trainee according to the book) in their firearm sounds about right.

Yes, I know I said APDS would be king. It still is. It's also Availability 16, so a conscript ain't getting it.

I think conscripts need to stay below the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 3000 mark. At that point, you're outnumbering the drones 2-1, which probably gives the metahumans a slight advantage in combat at the cost of versatility. Above that, the metahumans get better but now they're going 1-1 with the drones, or at best 3-2 and I just don't see that as a valid strategy.

A couple notes:
I don't think conscripts should use Cram. It's great during the fight (long duration) but 6S will probably knock out a conscript who saw any action and if they got knocked out it will probably kill them.

Also, while communications are critical, I would not trust commlinks to conscripts. Officers, trained soldiers absolutely, but giving a conscript free internet access is like asking to lose the war.

Edit (one last note, I promise):
Laser sights are probably going to be better than Smartlinks. They're (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 and only one die worse than the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 800-ish Smartlink set-up.

[Smokeskin]

Training 3rd world soldiers is not expensive.

For one, wages are much lower than in developed areas, so cost effective for corporations in America is very different than cost effective for an army in Vietnam.

Second, corporations want their employees to work all the time. For soldiers, it is very different. Most of the time, you are NOT needed to work, as very few armies have their full forces deployed and in action constantly. Most of the time, your army acts as a deterrent and/or is ready to deploy if you're attacked (or waiting for an opportune moment to attack a neighbor if you're so inclined). So what, do you do with that time? You train. There is very little cost difference between having your army on standby and training.

I doubt you'd see skillwires in 3rd world armies tbh.

A 3rd world army with disciplined leadership and skilled instructors could be reasonably well trained. A lot of 3rd world armies are not disciplined though, and are little more than thugs with assault rifles, preying on civilians. Such armies would be a complete walkover. You could easily find a mix in the same country - a dedicated and well trained main army that protects the regime ("republican guard"), and the rest of the army undisciplined and mainly serving to keep the population in check and act as a buffer against invaders.

Finally, mercenaries can be hired in times of war, providing skills, equipment and capabilities that the country doesn't have. From the high end (stealth fighters to take out enemy AAA, electronic warfare, spec ops, an armored column to penetrate the front lines) to the low end (foreign grunts willing to commit atrocities against the local population), these could be anything.

[Smokeskin]

I honestly don't see low grade soldiers being common because of the proliferation of drones. It's very difficult to get a cheap soldier who can compete with drones, for the following reasons:
#1 It's very difficult to get a metahuman to 3 IP without either ware, magic, or crippling drug addictions.
#2 Training is very expensive, compared to uploading a few easily duplicated/pirated autosofts.
#3 Drones don't take stun damage, which is critical against bursts. If you fire an assault rifle with burst at an armor 9 drone, the drone has a good chance of simply ignoring it, while a human will be knocked out unless they dodge it.
#4 No recoil modifier means drones with bigger guns and longer bursts then metahumans, which is a big difference in terms of lethality.
#5 Public opinion. A thousand dead metahumans is a tragedy, a thousand destroyed drones is not.
#6. Versatility. Drones can fly, travel at high speeds, don't eat, don't sleep, and can instantly be uploaded with new autosofts to change their skills from combat to infiltration to medicine. Just equipping a metahuman with equivalent used skillwires costs more than many drones and autosofts have a clear costs advantage over skillsofts.

To put it another way, a Ford LEBD with an Ingram White Knight, and an armor upgrade is going to cost about 7-7.5 thousand. It flies, has 3 AP, can only be damaged by heavy weapons or APDS ammo, can have it's skills instantly upgraded, and can easily tie into tacents and communicate with the rest of the army. A Steel Lynx will cost about the same, is faster, won't be able to fly, will have heavier armor, and comes with it's own autosofts. It's very difficult to imagine any metahuman soldier who can compete with that at a comparable cost.

Drones aren't just the cost of the drones. You need maintenance, fuel, control and communication networks, technical personel, workshops, hackers and IC to protect them, etc. There's A LOT of back end to service those things, and it is questionable how much of that expertise is even available locally.

A soldier on the other hand can live off the land or the local population, survive on his own, think for himself, maintain his own gear, heal minor injuries, can't get hacked, etc.

[UmaroVI]

Drones are also easily shut off with jamming. I agree drones would see use but I don't think you can pull off a drone army.

The "default" drone would almost certainly be a Lone Star Strato-9. 1900 for a medium flying drone that comes with a heavy weapon mount? Yes please.

[UmaroVI]

The problem with giving them the HK MP-5 is that without some serious modding, they can't really get any use out of the BF or FA options on it, and they're likely going to be relying on Wide Bursts to hit a lot of the time. I think springing for the Ingram White Knight is well worth it.

If you really, really want to keep the cost low and are willing to settle for single-shotting, then you should be giving them rifles or something, not SMGs.

[Grinder]

I hope someone's got the links handy.

I hope so too.

[Elfenlied]

Personally, I think cheap shotguns or assault rifles with laser sights are a good option for low-end grunts. Even with R3 Gas vents, you'll end up cheaper than with a White Knight, and recoil isn't doubled. The AK-97 or the T-250 are prime candidates for this.

As a sidearm, I'd say Ruger Super Warhawk. Cheap, and packs a punch. If your army is smartlinked, then Ares Predator IV.

[UmaroVI]

If you want to cheap on the weapons, T-250 is the way to go (500 for 7P/-1, after coughing up for an underbarrel weight). You really need to either cough up for the recoil compensation to USE BF/FA modes, or not bother. There's no point in having a fully automatic weapon with 1 RC, all that does is waste ammo. I can see the T-250 as being a sensible option if you don't want to pay for the ability to use an automatic.

[PoliteMan]

For the OP:
If you have a copy of War! (no derailment, please) then take a look at the Guerilla and the Guerilla Lieutenant, they actually look pretty solid and they're already built.
If you don't, they key points are that grunts get no ware, have armor jackets, commlinks, and AK-97s. Lieutenants get used Dermal Plating and Wired Reflexes. Makes sense. (Dunno how much we can post, so keeping it vague). I wouldn't use the other grunts shown but the Guerilla looks pretty good for a conscript army. Just stick a laser designator and some cheap recoil compensators on the AK, fluffwise it's been mass-produced out of a nano-forge but still, it could use some basic add-ons.

On Drones:
Hmm, I haven't ever worried about Jamming much because, well, ECCM 6. Let's take a look.

They've gotta be using a directional jammer, otherwise the loss of strength over range is just too great. Against a standard drone, a basic jammer should work (say R5-6) but if the drone has a skinweb array and ECCM R3 (1,700) then you'd need R9-10 to regularly jam it. And at 5,500-6,000 a jammer with a availability of 18-20, I just don't buy that being widespread amongst conscripts.

Hmm, I do think jammers, or even the threat of jammers, increases the cost of drones substantially but unless there's tons of R9-10 jammers out there (and you can't somehow spring for a more powerful ECCM program) then I don't see jammers really stopping drones. I do think that extra 1,700 makes some of the drones unfeasible, LEBDs are probably out, but the heavier drones like Steel Lynxes are still very brutal.

The problem with giving them the HK MP-5 is that without some serious modding, they can't really get any use out of the BF or FA options on it, and they're likely going to be relying on Wide Bursts to hit a lot of the time. I think springing for the Ingram White Knight is well worth it.

What I like about the HK MP-5 is that it comes with 3 points of recoil and a Laser Sight. No, they can't do big bursts but they should be able to consistently to short bursts and that's enough to seriously hurt most metahumans with 6-8 points of armor. And it's about 1,500 cheaper than the Ingram. If that 1,500 lets you equip another soldier, I think the MP-5 is worth it. If not, well, the Ingram wins because it'll drop most metas in one burst. I guess this one would come down to how populous/poor a force is.

The "default" drone would almost certainly be a Lone Star Strato-9. 1900 for a medium flying drone that comes with a heavy weapon mount? Yes please.

That's tasty. I can't find it in Arsenal or SR4. Is it from one of the new books?

Drones aren't just the cost of the drones. You need maintenance, fuel, control and communication networks, technical personel, workshops, hackers and IC to protect them, etc. There's A LOT of back end to service those things, and it is questionable how much of that expertise is even available locally.

A soldier on the other hand can live off the land or the local population, survive on his own, think for himself, maintain his own gear, heal minor injuries, can't get hacked, etc.

Humans need housing and food, their gear needs maintenance, and they certainly need commlinks and IC to protect their communications. Yes, drones require support but so do metahumans and I don't see the minimal cost increase from drones outweighing their massive boost in combat effectiveness.

[Grinder]

I hope someone's got the links handy.

I hope so too.

*sighs*

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11137

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=22574

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33203

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=33744

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=1793

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14882

[Elfenlied]

That's tasty. I can't find it in Arsenal or SR4. Is it from one of the new books?

It's probably from "This old Drone".

[Smokeskin]

Why are so many people mentioning SMGs and shotguns? There's no way you'd kit out soldiers with that as standard, range is way too poor. Assault Rifles and LMGs are the main weapons for soldiers.

[Elfenlied]

Why are so many people mentioning SMGs and shotguns? There's no way you'd kit out soldiers with that as standard, range is way too poor. Assault Rifles and LMGs are the main weapons for soldiers.

Actually, most encounters occur at <100m, where carbines are the weapons of choice.

[PoliteMan]

Mostly because this conflict is Vietnam (Jungle) and most SR conflicts seem to be Urban or jungle fighting (Bogota), where I don't think range would really be a factor. Also we're dealing with conscripts, who are going to have fairly poor equipment. Why pay extra for range you won't use.

[Smokeskin]

Humans need housing and food, their gear needs maintenance, and they certainly need commlinks and IC to protect their communications. Yes, drones require support but so do metahumans and I don't see the minimal cost increase from drones outweighing their massive boost in combat effectiveness.

Ehm no. Soldiers don't need housing. They have their own home, and when deployed they can make their own shelter. They need food, but it doesn't necessarily have to be supplied - most of the time you can just get it in the local food store or from civilians. Soldiers carry very little gear they can't maintain on their own. Soldiers don't need to be continually hacker-proof to operate, especially in the midst of combat soldiers can function if hacked while drones can go down or are subverted.

3rd world soldiers are basically unskilled labor that you've hired and trained in something they can't really use anywhere else, and with no alternative they remain cheap labor. To get an infantry force, you just need good officers, then hire lots of dirt farmers, buy guns, armor, and trucks for them, and give it at least 6 months for them to train. That's a lot cheaper than drones.

[Marwynn]

For a Third World grunt, I'd go with these:

Armour Vest
Helmet (0/2 B/I)
AK-147 if the country is wealthy enough to afford a nanoforge, else AK-97/98
CMT Clip Commlink for squad-to-squad comms and assorted electronics (embedded in helmet most likely)
Sidearms: plenty of old guns to choose from in Gun Heaven, M1991 for instance

Throw in a Ghillie Suit for the guerillas or snipers.

[Wolfgar]

Keep in mind that equipment most likely will not be standard across the whole army. It will differ from unit to unit, region to region. The players may encounter conscripts with armor jackets guarding a village one day, and elite special forces with full mil-spec gear and drone support guarding a governor/politico the next.

[Smokeskin]

Actually, most encounters occur at <100m, where carbines are the weapons of choice.

Shadowrun consider carbines as SMGs (yeah, doesn't make much sense), which are very inferior at <100m also. At 50m, the assault is still at short range, while the SMG is at medium range at 40m with a -3 modifier. At >80m, the SMG is at extreme range with -6 modifier, while ARs are only at -1.

Bottom line is, the grunts with low dice pools can't fight effectively at beyond 40 meters with carbines/SMGs, while ARs lets them operate out to 150m. Long range shots are 80m vs 350m. Assault rifles are just at a huge advantage.

And then there's the damage code difference.