[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

The player can presumably be trusted to decide if his character knows who the VP is. This falls outside the things that dice and crunch are needed for.

[Cain]

That presumes a lot.

Additionally, the whole point of knowledge skills is that they might give useful information. There are many "common knowledge" things that might be useful to know, but may or may not fall within the grasp of a knowledge skill. If you need to escape from your home in the Barrens because a go-gang is after you, knowing the shortest route is valuable information. You should know your own neighborhood, even at a Logic of 1; and it seems very unfair to demand that everyone take Area Knowledge: My Home as a skill. Somebody should be able to default to common knowledge skills, without facing a penalty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sometimes it matters. And if it does, people with a Logic of 1 should have a chance.

Recently, someone asked my players the VP question as an example. For some odd reason, it was the troll's player (who is special needs) who came up with the right answer: Biden. Now, this guy might charitably be given a Logic of 1; his schooling and ability to make conclusions is decidedly lacking. He doesn't remember who was President when he was born, but he was the one who came up with the correct answer. (He can also do Imperial to Metric conversions in his head, a trick I never mastered.)

By *your* rules, it's either yes or no. The GM is sole arbiter of what a player character knows. You're essentially committing an either/or fallacy: there are situations in between.

No. By MY rules, If it is generally accepted Common Knowledge (Players have input) then no role is required.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That presumes a lot.

Additionally, the whole point of knowledge skills is that they might give useful information. There are many "common knowledge" things that might be useful to know, but may or may not fall within the grasp of a knowledge skill. If you need to escape from your home in the Barrens because a go-gang is after you, knowing the shortest route is valuable information. You should know your own neighborhood, even at a Logic of 1; and it seems very unfair to demand that everyone take Area Knowledge: My Home as a skill. Somebody should be able to default to common knowledge skills, without facing a penalty.

This presumes that you have an indelible memory for nooks, crannies, alleyways, and whatnot. In this case, I would have you roll an active skill to escape, not a Knowledge skill. It is likely going to be opposed. After all, the gang probably has the same advantages you do if they live there as well.

[Cain]

No. By MY rules, If it is generally accepted Common Knowledge (Players have input) then no role is required.

So, it's either no roll is required, or no roll is permitted? That's GM fiat.

This presumes that you have an indelible memory for nooks, crannies, alleyways, and whatnot. In this case, I would have you roll an active skill to escape, not a Knowledge skill. It is likely going to be opposed. After all, the gang probably has the same advantages you do if they live there as well.

That's even worse. Knowledge skills are "free" to a limited extent, and I encourage my players to take fluff skills with them. If I required "common knowledge" knowledge skills, they'd be less likely to have interesting character-based fluff skills. Requiring active skills to find their way through their own backyard is just cruel and unusual punishment. Somebody with Logic of 1 should be able to get out of his own neighborhood efficiently, with or without an appropriate skill, active or otherwise.

My "special needs" player rides his bike here. Now, he could be considered to have a Logic of 1, and no area knowledge skills, because he doesn't know the bike paths that well. He's only had a bike for a month, after all. He's always made it here early, despite that. He doesn't have an "indelible memory for nooks and crannies", but he can use common knowledge and get here.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, it's either no roll is required, or no roll is permitted? That's GM fiat.

That's even worse. Knowledge skills are "free" to a limited extent, and I encourage my players to take fluff skills with them. If I required "common knowledge" knowledge skills, they'd be less likely to have interesting character-based fluff skills. Requiring active skills to find their way through their own backyard is just cruel and unusual punishment. Somebody with Logic of 1 should be able to get out of his own neighborhood efficiently, with or without an appropriate skill, active or otherwise.

My "special needs" player rides his bike here. Now, he could be considered to have a Logic of 1, and no area knowledge skills, because he doesn't know the bike paths that well. He's only had a bike for a month, after all. He's always made it here early, despite that. He doesn't have an "indelible memory for nooks and crannies", but he can use common knowledge and get here.

And you are making absolutley no sense. If it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE, it is Common, and therefore needs no roll.
If it is NOT Common Knowledge, then it is represented by either a Knowledge Skill, or a Default roll. As for GM fiating a roll is impossible. I have never said that. You can always roll, sometimes it just takes other things to allow that roll. Like Edge, or Equipment, or, you know, actual Knowledge. Of course, if it is not all that important to the story, why are you rolling dice anyways. If it IS important to the Story, Why can they not make the roll? You wouild think that if it was important, they would have taken steps to allow the roll in the forst place. So...

You do not need an Active Skill to find your way through your own backyard. But I do not consider a NEIGHBORHOOD to be a backyard. As for finding your way out of your neighborhood, I have seen people get lost in their own neighborhood. So, yes, Defaulting represents this very well, or you get an Area Knowledge Skill (City of Operation), or, you know, get a MAP/GPS System. Not sure why you are having such an issue with this. As for my example, I would use your Stealth vs. Perception if on Foot, or Vehicle vs. Perception/Shadowing for vehicles. The fact that you do not have an Area Knowledge Skill is irrelevant to the situation. You will either lose them or you will not. THAT is what is important.

As for yuour Guy. Your guy either obviously knows the Bike Paths well enough that a skill check is NOT required, or he has an Area Knowledge Skill: City Bike Paths. I think the difference between you and I is that I do not try to assign game world stats to a real person to try and make my points.

Also, how you allow people to pick their Knowledge Skills has absolutley no bearing on how Interesting they (the characters) become. If a character wants to take a Knowledge SKill that has little to no use, that is his perogative, and I heavily support that. Hell, I even do it myself. I often have many more FLUFF Knowledge SKills, because the character SHOULD have such Knowledge Skills for the concept. Does not make the character any more interesting for the other players (most of the time), but they are there for my own edification.

[Yerameyahu]

It seems like you're arguing against yourself, Cain. I'm not saying make someone default on something their character should reasonably know. I'm saying no roll is required. All your 'Logic 1 player' examples are nonsense, because he shouldn't have to make a roll in the first place. Or, in the case of *finding* the bathroom, the person looks for it. They don't rack their brains to remember where it is, they *find* it.

I hardly think GM fiat means asking the playing if their character knows a piece of common knowledge. If it's uncommon enough to make a Test, then it's uncommon enough for them to fail.

[Traul]

Just make it a Memory roll. WIL+LOG. Problem solved (although I think INT+LOG would make a better memory stat, but that's another story).

Or, in the case of *finding* the bathroom, the person looks for it. They don't rack their brains to remember where it is, they *find* it.

There are even tales of people *asking* for it, but I think it's just one more urban legend.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There are even tales of people *asking* for it, but I think it's just one more urban legend.

Wow... Surely that is an Urban Legend of the greatest exaggeration....

[HunterHerne]

My personal opinion on how this is looking: Neither of you is going to back down, and are just arguing in circles.

My personal opinion on how to handle finding a bathroom, or their way around a neighbourhood, especially through means they don't tavel often: This would be a Navigation test, with applicable knowledge possibly providing a bonus. Or Intuition-1. If he uses his commlink map, +2. If he has an actual mapsoft, add it's rating to his test.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My personal opinion on how this is looking: Neither of you is going to back down, and are just arguing in circles.

My personal opinion on how to handle finding a bathroom, or their way around a neighbourhood, especially through means they don't tavel often: This would be a Navigation test, with applicable knowledge possibly providing a bonus. Or Intuition-1. If he uses his commlink map, +2. If he has an actual mapsoft, add it's rating to his test.

Indeed...

[Yerameyahu]

Memory Tests are WIL + LOG? I never noticed (not in a world where literally everything is always recorded). You're right, that's just weird. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

And you are making absolutley no sense. If it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE, it is Common, and therefore needs no roll.
If it is NOT Common Knowledge, then it is represented by either a Knowledge Skill, or a Default roll. As for GM fiating a roll is impossible. I have never said that. You can always roll, sometimes it just takes other things to allow that roll. Like Edge, or Equipment, or, you know, actual Knowledge. Of course, if it is not all that important to the story, why are you rolling dice anyways. If it IS important to the Story, Why can they not make the roll? You wouild think that if it was important, they would have taken steps to allow the roll in the forst place. So...

You do not need an Active Skill to find your way through your own backyard. But I do not consider a NEIGHBORHOOD to be a backyard. As for finding your way out of your neighborhood, I have seen people get lost in their own neighborhood. So, yes, Defaulting represents this very well, or you get an Area Knowledge Skill (City of Operation), or, you know, get a MAP/GPS System. Not sure why you are having such an issue with this. As for my example, I would use your Stealth vs. Perception if on Foot, or Vehicle vs. Perception/Shadowing for vehicles. The fact that you do not have an Area Knowledge Skill is irrelevant to the situation. You will either lose them or you will not. THAT is what is important.

As for yuour Guy. Your guy either obviously knows the Bike Paths well enough that a skill check is NOT required, or he has an Area Knowledge Skill: City Bike Paths. I think the difference between you and I is that I do not try to assign game world stats to a real person to try and make my points.

Also, how you allow people to pick their Knowledge Skills has absolutley no bearing on how Interesting they (the characters) become. If a character wants to take a Knowledge SKill that has little to no use, that is his perogative, and I heavily support that. Hell, I even do it myself. I often have many more FLUFF Knowledge SKills, because the character SHOULD have such Knowledge Skills for the concept. Does not make the character any more interesting for the other players (most of the time), but they are there for my own edification.

Common knowledge: who is the vice president of the United States? Who's the head of the Senate?

These are all pieces of common knowledge "everyone should know", but most people can't answer.

As far as my player goes, you don't know him, and we joke about the unreality of putting our stats in SR4.5 terms all the times. It's a running gag at my table. We joke a lot-- you do know how that works, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I think the difference between you and I is that I can laugh at myself, instead of having everyone else do it for me.

It seems like you're arguing against yourself, Cain. I'm not saying make someone default on something their character should reasonably know. I'm saying no roll is required. All your 'Logic 1 player' examples are nonsense, because he shouldn't have to make a roll in the first place. Or, in the case of *finding* the bathroom, the person looks for it. They don't rack their brains to remember where it is, they *find* it.

I hardly think GM fiat means asking the playing if their character knows a piece of common knowledge. If it's uncommon enough to make a Test, then it's uncommon enough for them to fail.

That's exactly the point: if it's uncommon enough for them to fail, it's also means there's a chance they can succeed. Even a Logic 1 troll should be able to make a roll to see who the vice-president of the UCAS is. Under TJ's defaulting rules, he can't even do that.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not convinced that's true. If they have Logic 1 and zero skill, they probably deserve to auto-fail (sans Edge) on something that's uncommon enough not to *be* common knowledge (which I earlier defined as 'not needing a Test'). There's a chance *someone* could succeed, but that doesn't mean there has to be a chance for 'Mr. 1-0'.

Agility 1 Pistol 0 has no hope of shooting someone across the room, and I'm fine with that. It's not that I don't see your position, and both of our positions are personal, subjective ones (though one is RAW, whatever little that's worth). You could use some kind of house rule for fractional dice, I guess: 1–0 = hit on 6 only? I forgot what rule you suggested earlier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know I focused a bit on your examples earlier (and not wrongly), but I understand that they're merely examples. Your position is roughly that things shouldn't be totally impossible for a player's character in an RPG, because that's not fun. I just think that the 'requires test/doesn't require test' categories, and the option of Edge, adequately address that.

[Cain]

Quickness 1, Pistols 0 can still hit someone from across the room, assuming he aims. Unfortunately, there's no such bonus for Knowledge skill checks.

Basically, for nonspecific knowledge, I use the Savage Worlds "Common Knowledge" rule, which is a straight Smarts test. In SR4.5, that's a straight Logic test, no default. Which is actually fair, if you think about it: let's say someone has to calculate mileage for a long trip. That's simple algebra, but there's consequences for screwing it up (running out of gas). Since no one takes Academic Knowledge: Algebra as a skill, it seems unfair to penalize everyone (regardless of Logic score) for something they should reasonably know. It's *most* unfair to the Logic 1 characters, since they can't do it at all; but other characters still take a penalty to do basic math.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Common knowledge: who is the vice president of the United States? Who's the head of the Senate?

These are all pieces of common knowledge "everyone should know", but most people can't answer.

At which point they are not Common Knowledge. But, you could always use that standard memory Test that has been talked about. You know, the one that represents what one might know?

As far as my player goes, you don't know him, and we joke about the unreality of putting our stats in SR4.5 terms all the times. It's a running gag at my table. We joke a lot-- you do know how that works, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I think the difference between you and I is that I can laugh at myself, instead of having everyone else do it for me.

You know, you really are not all that hilarious. Just because someone does not agree with you is no reason to start throwing around insults. My point was that, even if the Player that you refer to does indeed have that Logic 1, he obviously has more than just passing familiarity with the routes he uses on his transport vehicle. As such, he is either sporting a skill, has a good memory, or is not as Logic Imparied as you like to imply.

That's exactly the point: if it's uncommon enough for them to fail, it's also means there's a chance they can succeed. Even a Logic 1 troll should be able to make a roll to see who the vice-president of the UCAS is. Under TJ's defaulting rules, he can't even do that.

First, they are not MY defaulting Rules (Read the Book, you will see that), they are the Rules right there in the Book (let me see... yep, Attribute -1... wow). An Attribute 1 Character Cannot default to any skill based on that attribute with a net DP above 0 at that point (1-1=0) without other influences coming to bear. So, unless there are other bonuses, the character is out of luck. Oh Well, too bad for him. Guess he should not have had an Attribute of 1.

Why? Why would the character not just look it up, or ask someone who may know? Why must there be a rule to accommodate someone who CHOOSES to have a low attribute? If the Player CHOOSES such a thing, after being warned about it, he should indeed suffer the consequences of that choice. In this Case, no defaulting unless there are other bonuses that come into play, purchase of the actual skill, etc. I think you are punishing a player (in some ways) for making him roll those "Common Knowledge" Rolls in the first place, and then rewarding other players by removing the drawbacks of a low attribute so that they may now succeed where they would have failed previously. If it is UNCOMMON knowledge, WHY should he not fail if he can't make the roll? After all, it is Uncommon, and not everyone knows the answers.

Again, there are already rules in place to handle such things. You either don't need the roll (No Skill Required, it is common knowledge), You use a memory test (for things that you determine may be less than common, but still do not call for an actual skill), you Default (and spend Edge if you need to succeeed if you are reduced to no dice), You purchase a skill to cover your knowledge gaps, or you fail the roll because it was not all that important anyways. WHY do you need a new mechanic to accommodate those who are gaming the system anyways?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Basically, for nonspecific knowledge, I use the Savage Worlds "Common Knowledge" rule, which is a straight Smarts test. In SR4.5, that's a straight Logic test, no default. Which is actually fair, if you think about it: let's say someone has to calculate mileage for a long trip. That's simple algebra, but there's consequences for screwing it up (running out of gas). Since no one takes Academic Knowledge: Algebra as a skill, it seems unfair to penalize everyone (regardless of Logic score) for something they should reasonably know. It's *most* unfair to the Logic 1 characters, since they can't do it at all; but other characters still take a penalty to do basic math.

And I say that there is absolutely no reason to have the character roll that test to start with. Especially in Shadowrun. Who cares about basic math (Advanced Math is generally covered in the various active skills, so not a need for those either)? Do you have them roll a test to see if they can read basic native language? If not, Why Not? Same basic Principle here. How about basic writing? Do yo make your players roll Writing Skills to compose a letter, or a message to their contacts? Again, why not?

There is absolutely no need for such rolls in game. They add absolutely nothing to the game, at the expense of time involved resolving the roll.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Quickness 1, Pistols 0 can still hit someone from across the room, assuming he aims. Unfortunately, there's no such bonus for Knowledge skill checks.

Basically, for nonspecific knowledge, I use the Savage Worlds "Common Knowledge" rule, which is a straight Smarts test. In SR4.5, that's a straight Logic test, no default. Which is actually fair, if you think about it: let's say someone has to calculate mileage for a long trip. That's simple algebra, but there's consequences for screwing it up (running out of gas). Since no one takes Academic Knowledge: Algebra as a skill, it seems unfair to penalize everyone (regardless of Logic score) for something they should reasonably know. It's *most* unfair to the Logic 1 characters, since they can't do it at all; but other characters still take a penalty to do basic math.

Lets see... SR4A 148

Take Aim
A character may take aim with a ready ranged weapon (firearm, bow, or
throwing weapon) as a Simple Action. Take Aim actions are cumulative,
but the benefits are lost if the character takes any other kind of
action—including a Free Action—at any time. Take Aim actions may
be extended over multiple Action Phases and Initiative Passes, even
from Combat Turn to Combat Turn. The maximum number of sequential
Take Aim actions a character may take is equal to one-half the
character’s skill with that weapon, rounded down.

If the character wants to try a test when he has no dice, make them use a Long Shot test. SR4A 61

Long Shots
In some circumstances, modifiers may reduce a character’s dice pool to
0 or below. In this case, the character automatically fails the test unless
she spends a point of Edge (see Edge, p. 74). Spending a point of Edge
this way is called making a Long Shot Test. The character rolls only her
Edge dice to make the test; this represents depending on blind luck
rather than any innate ability or skill.

[HunterHerne]

And I say that there is absolutely no reason to have the character roll that test to start with. Especially in Shadowrun. Who cares about basic math (Advanced Math is generally covered in the various active skills, so not a need for those either)? Do you have them roll a test to see if they can read basic native language? If not, Why Not? Same basic Principle here. How about basic writing? Do yo make your players roll Writing Skills to compose a letter, or a message to their contacts? Again, why not?

There is absolutely no need for such rolls in game. They add absolutely nothing to the game, at the expense of time involved resolving the roll.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I would, if they took the illiterate quality.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would, if they took the illiterate quality.

They should not be reading/writing at that point anyways, because they are.... ILLITERATE. But just because they cannot read does not mean that they cannot communicate. Dictation is easy, and is likely done very often in Shadowrun. There is absolutely no reason to even roll such nonsense for a character that cannot read. They cannot read. Big deal. I know people who cannot read, and they function failry well in today's society (as long as they are not required to actually read), let alone a society that has replaced most common personal interactions with icons and pictures.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

They should not be reading/writing at that point anyways, because they are.... ILLITERATE. But just because they cannot read does not mean that they cannot communicate. Dictation is easy, and is likely done very often in Shadowrun. There is absolutely no reason to even roll such nonsense for a character that cannot read. They cannot read. Big deal. I know people who cannot read, and they function failry well in today's society (as long as they are not required to actually read), let alone a society that has replaced most common personal interactions with icons and pictures.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Fair enough,. but there are times, when they may not be able to fully understand, but they get somewhere. That would be the test.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fair enough,. but there are times, when they may not be able to fully understand, but they get somewhere. That would be the test.

Why a test though? Understanding is not difficult, Reading/Writing is. Once you have the information (undserstanding) you just tell your transport to take you there. No need for the illiterate to do anything else.

Understanding is actually very easy in Shadowrun. There are translation programs out there for just that purpose, translating text to speech and vice versa.

[HunterHerne]

Why a test though? Understanding is not difficult, Reading/Writing is. Once you have the information (undserstanding) you just tell your transport to take you there. No need for the illiterate to do anything else.

Understanding is actually very easy in Shadowrun. There are translation programs out there for just that purpose, translating text to speech and vice versa.

Understanding how to do it cottectly. It`s wouldn`t be common, anyway, exceptionally rare, and situational, actually. Like if the guy didn`t have his commlink for whatever reason, but had to leave a message somewhere.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Understanding how to do it cottectly. It`s wouldn`t be common, anyway, exceptionally rare, and situational, actually. Like if the guy didn`t have his commlink for whatever reason, but had to leave a message somewhere.

I can agree that in a pinch, where it is extremely rare, and highly situationally, it might require a roll.
Why is he without his comlink though? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

I can agree that in a pinch, where it is extremely rare, and highly situationally, it might require a roll.
Why is he without his comlink though? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My best guess, some NPC was smart, and decided he shouldn't be contacting his friends (by either shooting it away, or taking it off him before throwing him in a cell (or he escaped their grasp after being interrogated). Other then that, I don't see much reason, unless the GM is harsh with his AoE elemental damage.