[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My best guess, some NPC was smart, and decided he shouldn't be contacting his friends (by either shooting it away, or taking it off him before throwing him in a cell (or he escaped their grasp after being interrogated). Other then that, I don't see much reason, unless the GM is harsh with his AoE elemental damage.

Agreed. In the instance it becomes relevant, it is a Plot Point. Any other time, it is not relevant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

You know, you really are not all that hilarious. Just because someone does not agree with you is no reason to start throwing around insults. My point was that, even if the Player that you refer to does indeed have that Logic 1, he obviously has more than just passing familiarity with the routes he uses on his transport vehicle. As such, he is either sporting a skill, has a good memory, or is not as Logic Imparied as you like to imply.

What you threw was an insult. Rather than insult back, I threw a joke. Yolk's on you, this time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyways, the point is that the moment it becomes important, the character suddenly forgets how to find his way around his own backyard. That's just not right.

First, they are not MY defaulting Rules (Read the Book, you will see that), they are the Rules right there in the Book (let me see... yep, Attribute -1... wow). An Attribute 1 Character Cannot default to any skill based on that attribute with a net DP above 0 at that point (1-1=0) without other influences coming to bear. So, unless there are other bonuses, the character is out of luck. Oh Well, too bad for him.

In the same post, you referenced a Memory test, after several pages of saying that RAW demands we use a defaulted knowledge test. So yes, in this case, it is *your* house rules that are under fire, because they don't work. Now, if you don't like RAW and prefer to use house rules, that's fine; but you can't defend them and attack them in the same breath without looking like a total hypocrite.

And I say that there is absolutely no reason to have the character roll that test to start with. Especially in Shadowrun. Who cares about basic math (Advanced Math is generally covered in the various active skills, so not a need for those either)? Do you have them roll a test to see if they can read basic native language? If not, Why Not? Same basic Principle here.

If the player is a rigger trying to calculate fuel for a trip? It matters, a lot. Some people like that level of bean-counting, although admittedly SR4.5 does it a lot less than others.

As far as rolling to read in their native language: when I was eight, I tested at above college reading level. I learned to read on my mom's ICD books. But the first time I picked up a reference book on mycology, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. So yeah, making someone roll to read a technical book seems fair: but everyone should have a chance to do it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Anyways, the point is that the moment it becomes important, the character suddenly forgets how to find his way around his own backyard. That's just not right.

In the same post, you referenced a Memory test, after several pages of saying that RAW demands we use a defaulted knowledge test. So yes, in this case, it is *your* house rules that are under fire, because they don't work. Now, if you don't like RAW and prefer to use house rules, that's fine; but you can't defend them and attack them in the same breath without looking like a total hypocrite.

What the hell are you talking about. Defaulting works just fine... JUST NOT FOR YOU...
Memory Tests work fine for finding your way around your neighborhood, no skill required... JUST NOT FOR YOU.

Both of those rules are in the Book...
I can defend them just fine. And note... NO HOUSERULES...

If the player is a rigger trying to calculate fuel for a trip? It matters, a lot. Some people like that level of bean-counting, although admittedly SR4.5 does it a lot less than others.

No, it does not matter. It is not relevant to the game at all, UNLESS YOU MAKE IT SO, FOR NO REASON.

As far as rolling to read in their native language: when I was eight, I tested at above college reading level. I learned to read on my mom's ICD books. But the first time I picked up a reference book on mycology, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. So yeah, making someone roll to read a technical book seems fair: but everyone should have a chance to do it.

It has nothing to do with Reading a book, you could read it just fine, you just could not understand it. It has to do with not understanding the SUBJECT matter. THAT IS A KNOWLEDGE CHECK, not a Reading Check. And if you do not have the SKILL, you DEFAULT. AS the rules in the book already indicate.

Oh, and show me where the insult was in my previous Post... I looked. No insult I could find. If there is something in ther eyou find insulting, it was not intentional.

[Cain]

What the hell are you talking about. Defaulting works just fine...

Unless you have a Logic of 1. Or in your case, when you use it instead of a memory check, which is what you were advising for most of this thread, until someone pointed out that by RAW, you can use a Memory check. Still not much help with a Willpower 1 troll, but it's better than a default.

No, it does not matter. It is not relevant to the game at all

I just finished Ghost Cartels, and one PC bought a cutter in Japan. It suddenly became important on how he was going to get it to Caracas, how long it'd take, and how much fuel was needed. So yeah, it is relevant.

It has nothing to do with Reading a book, you could read it just fine, you just could not understand it. It has to do with not understanding the SUBJECT matter. THAT IS A KNOWLEDGE CHECK, not a Reading Check. And if you do not have the SKILL, you DEFAULT. AS the rules in the book already indicate.

Or you could make a Memory test, if no knowledge skill was applicable. But are you really saying that reading and understanding are two separate things? In that case, I can read ancient Egyptian; I just can't understand it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Oh, and show me where the insult was in my previous Post... I looked. No insult I could find. If there is something in ther eyou find insulting, it was not intentional.

OK:

I think the difference between you and I is that I do not try to assign game world stats to a real person to try and make my points.

It may not be a direct insult, but it is decidedly insulting. I won't insult you back, but I think you can see how that line deserves an apology at the very least.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Unless you have a Logic of 1. Or in your case, when you use it instead of a memory check, which is what you were advising for most of this thread, until someone pointed out that by RAW, you can use a Memory check. Still not much help with a Willpower 1 troll, but it's better than a default.

A player having a Logic (or Willpower) of 1 is not my problem as a GM. It is his problem as a Player/Character. He chose to have such, he should suffer whatever consequences are generated.

As for my addition of a Memory Check. Forgot about it initially, but it is a perfectly reasonable application for things that "should be common knowledge." If it is so common, then you can argue that the character has been exposed to it at some point, and so a memory test will work to bring that information to recall. See, No Skill is required for such things... Why? Because apparently, they are COMMON KNOWLEDGE, as you keep insisting.

I just finished Ghost Cartels, and one PC bought a cutter in Japan. It suddenly became important on how he was going to get it to Caracas, how long it'd take, and how much fuel was needed. So yeah, it is relevant.

I disagree. Did it add anything to the game? Did it matter whether he had "enough" fuel, or had to refuel twice? Was it an important part of the campaign that he sat down to figure out how much fuel was needed? I would say probably not in any of these cases. It can be completley handwaved or narrated. But I will humor you. All you need to know is Distance (easily acquired, no skill needed), and time to traverse that distance (again, no sklll required, look up the speed of the boat, calculate per hour if needed), and how large your fuel tanks are (measured in hours of travel in SR4). So you have Fuel Capacity (Hours), Speed (Per Hour) and Distance (How Long it will Take Total). Easily solved and no roll required. But again, I will humor you. BAsic Math can be covered by a Memory Roll, and there is no way yuou can say that this is NO basic math. Or, you could just as the agent in the comlink to figure it out for you (A rating 1 Agent will suffice after all). My Question is this: WHY would you need a roll for such a paltry thing in the first place? Is it absolutely Crucial that you have the answer for the game to continue? Or, do you just say, "Yep, took a while to get there as you travel the seas and oceans. You refueled a few times." If the scenario requires a strict accounting of time, then you should probably not take a boat. If it does not, it is inconsequential to the story.

Or you could make a Memory test, if no knowledge skill was applicable. But are you really saying that reading and understanding are two separate things? In that case, I can read ancient Egyptian; I just can't understand it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Again, you willfully misinterpret what I said, and you know it. The book you referenced and said you could not understand; It was in your Native Language, Yes? I can read a Text book on high level physics and read it with absolutely no issues whatsoever, it is written in English after all. That does not mean that I can UNDERSTAND it. Understanding takes a Skill. Application takes a Skill. Memory tests will not help me in this regard because I DO NOT HAVE THE SKILL.

You cannot READ Ancient Egyption IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LANGUAGE (Have the Skill). Some things will REQUIRE a Skill. An Illiterate individual CANNOT READ, even in their OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE. Your proposed solution is to allow a Defaulted roll with no penalty, ostensibly so that the Logic 1 Character has a Chance to succeed. I call BS on that Sentiment. If he wants to succeed, he needs to either buy the appropriate skill, raise the Logic Attribute to 2, so he can attempt to default, or Spend Edge.

Back to your example of escaping your neighborhood. I travel my neighborhood all the time, I can have either a really good skill (Not Necessary) or I could just access my Memory and use that. Why? Because I live there. My Memory will work just fine for that application of navigation around my own neighborhood. I would go one further in the game, though. I would not have you roll to "Know" the back alleys and cross streets. Why? Because YOU LIVE THERE. If it became absolutely crucial to MAKE you roll for something that arbitrary (makes no difference to the game in play, has no application), it would be a memory roll vs. a Skill roll, because there is no skill needed to live somewhere. You saying otherwise sounds a bit asinine.

OK:

It may not be a direct insult, but it is decidedly insulting. I won't insult you back, but I think you can see how that line deserves an apology at the very least.

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about whatsoever. Point it out...
As I said earlier, I cannot control how you interpret things, and if you see it as insulting, that is really not my issue. But if you point it out, maybe we will be on the same page and have a basis to address what is being argued here.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Grinder]

It may not be a direct insult, but it is decidedly insulting. I won't insult you back, but I think you can see how that line deserves an apology at the very least.

I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about whatsoever. Point it out...
As I said earlier, I cannot control how you interpret things, and if you see it as insulting, that is really not my issue. But if you point it out, maybe we will be on the same page and have a basis to address what is being argued here.

Uh, it's Cain vs. Tymeaus Jalynsfein again. How... great. And interesting. Not. So stop it right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[Draco18s]

Uh, it's Cain vs. Tymeaus Jalynsfein again. How... great. And interesting. Not. So stop it right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

This.
So much so that I'm tempted to sig it.

[Cain]

I'm going to go back a bit, to a valid point made by someone other than TJ:

I know I focused a bit on your examples earlier (and not wrongly), but I understand that they're merely examples. Your position is roughly that things shouldn't be totally impossible for a player's character in an RPG, because that's not fun. I just think that the 'requires test/doesn't require test' categories, and the option of Edge, adequately address that.

That's very close, but I also hail from the "Don't say no, let them roll" school of GMing. And telling them they can't accomplish something without arbitrarily spending valuable resources (like Edge) is IMO worse than telling them no-- it's telling them: "Maybe, if you jump through all my hoops first". It might be funny the first few times, but that sort of thing gets old quickly. I'll let people get away with a lot in my games,so long as it's fun; but that feels too much like player spanking to be fun for me. I'd rather put more of it into the hands of the players.

[Grinder]

I'm going to go back a bit, to a valid point made by someone other than TJ:

Oh yeah, fucking great. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

1. Personal attacks, flaming, trolling, and baiting are prohibited. This includes any form of racism, sexism or religious intolerance.

Just a reminder.

[DamienKnight]

Professional Skills
Corporate Structure (Spec- by Corporation) (Useful for figuring out if Johnson is a little fish or a shark.)
Tactics (Spec- Small Unit, Armored, Naval, Drone Deployment, etc.) (Something to supplement the Leadership skill.)

I would think that Corporate Structure would be a spec for Corporate Politics.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would think that Corporate Structure would be a spec for Corporate Politics.

You could definitely go that route. Knowledge Skills are highly mutable, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

You could definitely go that route. Knowledge Skills are highly mutable, after all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sure are:

Renraku corporate politics (16th floor)
Computer problems (friends and family)
Needed forms (TPS reports)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure are:

Renraku corporate politics (16th floor)
Computer problems (friends and family)
Needed forms (TPS reports)

Assuming you want to spend those points in that way, I agree. Most would not, but I have seen stranger things in my time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That said, I am a BIG believer in a ton of Knowledge Skills, both useful and flavorful.

[Draco18s]

Assuming you want to spend those points in that way, I agree. Most would not, but I have seen stranger things in my time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Oh, I wouldn't. But there's nothing that says you can't do it.

That said, I am a BIG believer in a ton of Knowledge Skills, both useful and flavorful.

Same. Even when I was building a BP strapped character (elf + drake) I spent about 2BP worth of points on flavorful items (cough, nexus) and had a couple flavor skills (one of which--Hacking*--actually came up).

*I was a mystic-adept! A mystic-adept I tell you! And I was still the only one who had any hacking skill (all of 1 point).

[Cain]

*
Professional Skills
Corporate Structure (Spec- by Corporation) (Useful for figuring out if Johnson is a little fish or a shark.)
Tactics (Spec- Small Unit, Armored, Naval, Drone Deployment, etc.) (Something to supplement the Leadership skill.)

Like I said earlier, I'm a big proponent of fluff skills. My mage has several fashion skills, to supplant her part-time work as a magically-infused hairdresser. That's actually a handier one than many others, since it means any time we have to go into a high-class establishment, we know we'll be dressed appropriately. I've yet to see Farming come up as a useful knowledge skill, but it's fun if you want to show off a country background. I did use Knowledge: Country Music to pull a "Back to the Future" on someone; the otaku hacked his pocket secretary so it wouldn't play anything but bad country, and threatened to keep it up until his brain melted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[CanRay]

Why some hobby skills can come in handy.

[Neurosis]

That is clearly a language skill. : )

[CanRay]

Unless all you can do is swear, badly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cain]

Unless all you can do is swear, badly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Hey, I can swear badly in twelve different languages. It comes in handy, no matter where in the world you go, you'll find some way of pissing someone off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

Hey, I can swear badly in twelve different languages. It comes in handy, no matter where in the world you go, you'll find some way of pissing someone off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Don't even need a foreign language for that.

*Speaking Slowly And Loudly* "Can. You. Understand. Me?"

"Yes, I can understand you very well."

"Oh, you speak American. Good. I keep getting these Canadians who I can't understand..."

*Headdesk*

[Draco18s]

Don't even need a foreign language for that.

*Speaking Slowly And Loudly* "Can. You. Understand. Me?"

"Yes, I can understand you very well."

"Oh, you speak American. Good. I keep getting these Canadians who I can't understand..."

*Headdesk*

Sounds like a Not Always Right.

[CanRay]

Sorry Draco18s, I forgot, didn't tell the whole story. There were a number of call centres, one of which was in Texas and had really thick accents (Not all of them Texan-English, either, I might add. Although to be fair, they were one of the main Spanish Support Lines.). The Texas center called themselves "Canadians" at times to "Cover Up" those accents. (At least, that was the prevailing theory. Never proven.).

Languages as Knowledge Skills are damned useful, BTW. During "The San Diego-Batman Job" my group had to deal with Aztechnology-Subsidiary Security Force Policemen who didn't speak a word of English (And none of the group had taken Spanish). The officer in question (As it was a major tourist city, and they were actually hired for politeness and keeping the people happy) downloaded a free translation app and, well, my group just barely understood him.

Linguisofts are good, but there's nothing like knowing the language itself.

[Draco18s]

Sorry Draco18s, I forgot, didn't tell the whole story. There were a number of call centres, one of which was in Texas and had really thick accents (Not all of them Texan-English, either, I might add. Although to be fair, they were one of the main Spanish Support Lines.). The Texas center called themselves "Canadians" at times to "Cover Up" those accents. (At least, that was the prevailing theory. Never proven.).

Awful.
Of course (The Customer is) Not Always Right can swing both ways. There are customer service people at some companies who are complete morons too.

Did I ever tell you guys about the time I was on tech support for my laptop and the tech was having me go through diagnostics, and rather than actually do them, I was walking on my way to class and simply telling him the results (as I'd already said numerous times "I've already done that"). The man never caught on, despite the fairly obvious street noises he should have been hearing.

[Marwynn]

Because people never bring laptops outside?

For every one tech support caller who knows what he's doing, how many do you think don't? The support guy can't take your word for it, he doesn't know your level of proficiency and he still needs to analyze and diagnose the issue himself.


I'm not a fan of Knowledge skills as they are. They seem too... vague or nebulous at times. It's a good system, adds depth to a character. But a normal person, let alone a runner, would know a lot more than the handfuls that you get.

I think there should be Knowledge Skill Groups (excluding languages).

[Draco18s]

Because people never bring laptops outside?

Considering I started the call inside, packed up my stuff, went out the door, locked it, and walked down the street....

He never even once said "I can't hear you because of the wind."

For every one tech support caller who knows what he's doing, how many do you think don't? The support guy can't take your word for it, he doesn't know your level of proficiency and he still needs to analyze and diagnose the issue himself.

I once called and said "I have some dead pixels. How many are required in order to get my screen replaced?" And instead of giving me a number or asking how many were dead (it was a quarter inch diameter circle, so on the order of, say, 150?) I had to go through several diagnostic tests to do I-don't-even-know-what as they didn't detect the pixels as being dead nor do anything to undead them (or even look like it was trying).

After 20 minutes the guy said, "looks like we'll have to ship you a new screen, the threshold on dead pixels for replacement is 12."

TWELVE. I had more than 12 dead pixels. WAY more.

As for knowing my level of proficiency I have called up and said "I have run these exact tests, in this exact manner, with these exact results and nothing has helped me solve my problem. I need this part replaced."

Also, despite having to enter my serial number into the phone-jail system, the tech always needs to ask for it (I've never understood why).