[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

When you are placing a bet with the bookies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Now *that* would be an interesting Shadowrun, trying to sabotage a NASCAR race. And then placing a bet on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Taking a look at the sheet, though, I'm still not likely to use the Farming or Tractor Pull skills. But hey, I like vanity skills.

[Bodak]

And if you think Leadership can be replaced with Intimidation or Etiquette, you need to read the skill descriptions again. Leading people is not just about instilling fear and otherwise fitting in.

Eh. I reread the bumf and still have the same view. "Boss calls an employee in the weekend, asks him to come in - that's a Leadership roll" maybe in some games. In dystopian settings though where the megacorp owns the wageslave's accommodation, turning down an opportunity to serve on the weekend might mean someone else who is prepared to work weekends on short notice just to have a job at all takes your place. An indifferent boss would tell it like it is (etiquette) or remind the employee of the consequences (intimidation). A loyal, friendly boss might coax (negotiation) or reassure the employee that the boss will be working all weekend too (leadership) but the idea of honourable bosses in SR doesn't really gel with me. That sounds more like Birthright, or Rasczak directing the mobile infantry. It has lost that "little fish in a big pond" perspective.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Now *that* would be an interesting Shadowrun, trying to sabotage a NASCAR race. And then placing a bet on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Taking a look at the sheet, though, I'm still not likely to use the Farming or Tractor Pull skills. But hey, I like vanity skills.

Vanity Skills are good. I usually have a handful of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Eh. I reread the bumf and still have the same view. "Boss calls an employee in the weekend, asks him to come in - that's a Leadership roll" maybe in some games. In dystopian settings though where the megacorp owns the wageslave's accommodation, turning down an opportunity to serve on the weekend might mean someone else who is prepared to work weekends on short notice just to have a job at all takes your place. An indifferent boss would tell it like it is (etiquette) or remind the employee of the consequences (intimidation). A loyal, friendly boss might coax (negotiation) or reassure the employee that the boss will be working all weekend too (leadership) but the idea of honourable bosses in SR doesn't really gel with me. That sounds more like Birthright, or Rasczak directing the mobile infantry. It has lost that "little fish in a big pond" perspective.

My question would be Why is the Boss Asking? Aren't all Wageslaves scheduled to work 90 Hours per week anyways? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fyndhal]

Here's the list of one of my current characters Knowledge Skills:

CODE

Security Tactics  3
Security Design  4
Architecture 5
Area Knoweldge: Seattle  2
Physics  3
Language: English N
Language: Spanish 2
Language: Japanese 2
Hangouts (Shadowrunner) 2
Cop Trids 2
Romance Trids 2

[Warlordtheft]

Personally? I don't see the need. Knowledge skills come in basically two flavors: General knowledge of a subject, and vanity skills. For the general skills, it's always a game to make them as broad as possible while still being specific enough to get useful information. I do try and reward specific knowledge skills with a lower threshold, but it varies dramatically. Vanity skills might come in handy, or they might never come up at all; they're just there to give a character some depth. I mean, when is NASCAR racing ever going to be used as a shadowrunning skill?

You never know. Maybe the runners get involved in a shadow op involving racing team Ares and racing team MCT.

My general prinicpal (when GM) is that knowledge skills can be as broad or as specific as the players like. For example knoledge skill of Colt Firearms and Knowledge Firearms would overlap, but when making a knowledge roll regarding a specific colt peace maker the PC with knowledge skill Colt Firearms would have an easier time of it. Conversly they would look at at a specific Smith and Wesson and have no chance of knowing much about it other than it is not a Colt. The guy with knowledge of firearms would have the same degree diffculty identifying both.

[Smokeskin]

Eh. I reread the bumf and still have the same view. "Boss calls an employee in the weekend, asks him to come in - that's a Leadership roll" maybe in some games. In dystopian settings though where the megacorp owns the wageslave's accommodation, turning down an opportunity to serve on the weekend might mean someone else who is prepared to work weekends on short notice just to have a job at all takes your place. An indifferent boss would tell it like it is (etiquette) or remind the employee of the consequences (intimidation). A loyal, friendly boss might coax (negotiation) or reassure the employee that the boss will be working all weekend too (leadership) but the idea of honourable bosses in SR doesn't really gel with me. That sounds more like Birthright, or Rasczak directing the mobile infantry. It has lost that "little fish in a big pond" perspective.

Sure, you can have nasty dystopian working conditions. You could even have a military situation where refusing an order could see you court martialled. I'd still make it a Leadership roll. Getting your subordinates to do something, whether through positive incentives, implied threats, or identity-building and motivation, it is a Leadership roll. The tough boss with good Leadership gets employees that are scared of failing, eager to please and motivated to succeed. The boss who just has Intimidaion has employees only scared of failing, and at some point they might even stop caring about that, and they'll be eager to fuck him over if they think they can get away with it.

Bottom line is, I think Leadership is used when leading, with all the varied tools, positive as negative, that a leader has at his disposal. Intimidation, Etiquette and Negotiation is for when you fail your Leadership roll. Letting leaders get full effect from using those skills in normal leadership situations is imo a misunderstanding of the scope of the social skills.

[Udoshi]

Personally? I don't see the need. Knowledge skills come in basically two flavors: General knowledge of a subject, and vanity skills. For the general skills, it's always a game to make them as broad as possible while still being specific enough to get useful information. I do try and reward specific knowledge skills with a lower threshold, but it varies dramatically. Vanity skills might come in handy, or they might never come up at all; they're just there to give a character some depth. I mean, when is NASCAR racing ever going to be used as a shadowrunning skill?

I generally agree with this.

Where it kind of falls apart and gets annoying is where the expansion books got it in its head to make a few, select knowledge skills necessary to do stuff.

Reprogramming nanites uses a knowledge skill. So does making plans for Modification. (the various Designs you see the sample characters have). Its kind of annoying realizing that knowledge skills are kind of useless and just for flavor, and then having it come back around and realizing that some AREN'T just for show.

Also, at our table, we have a houserule for knowledge skills. If you have one that applies to a task at hand, you can use your knowledge skill to Teamwork Test yourself, because you know what the hell you're doing. To date, I don't think anyone's ever tried to cheese it, instead leaving it as an occasional bonus - but were it to be used in another game, i would suggest limiting the dice to half the knowledge skill's rating, round up. This gives people a reason to actually develop experience, and raise knowledge skills, instead of just getting an active skill at 6 and calling it done.

[Bodak]

Also, at our table, we have a houserule for knowledge skills. If you have one that applies to a task at hand, you can use your knowledge skill to Teamwork Test yourself, because you know what the hell you're doing. To date, I don't think anyone's ever tried to cheese it

As Scratch and Synner pointed out here that was planned for SR4 but was canned due to playtester cheese like knowledge: ballistics complementing all firearms tests.

[Giabralter]

My list of magical knowledge skills:

Security Procedures: Magical
Forensics: Magical
Metaplanar Theories: Specific tradition or plane
Magical Theory (kind of leftover from previous editions): Specific tradition
Magical Artifacts / Objects: By tradition / era (e.g. 4th World) / place / function / etc.
Magical Effects: Mana Storms, Alchea, etc.
Magical Places: By tradition, country, etc.
Spirits / Astral beings: By type
Parazoology: Type, country, etc.
Parabotany: Type, country, etc.
History of Magic: By era, place, tradition, etc.

Academic--Parazoology (Awakened Animals)
Academic--Parabotany (awakened Plants)
Academic--Parageology (Geomancy, Mana lines, Magical places)
Academic-- Aetherology (phenomenon on the astral plane)
Academic--ArcanoArcheology (Magical artifacts)

[Udoshi]

As Scratch and Synner pointed out here that was planned for SR4 but was canned due to playtester cheese like knowledge: ballistics complementing all firearms tests.

Yeah. If allowed to run freely, and accumulate massive hits with edge, its pretty OP.

[Cain]

I generally agree with this.

Where it kind of falls apart and gets annoying is where the expansion books got it in its head to make a few, select knowledge skills necessary to do stuff.

Reprogramming nanites uses a knowledge skill. So does making plans for Modification. (the various Designs you see the sample characters have). Its kind of annoying realizing that knowledge skills are kind of useless and just for flavor, and then having it come back around and realizing that some AREN'T just for show.

Also, at our table, we have a houserule for knowledge skills. If you have one that applies to a task at hand, you can use your knowledge skill to Teamwork Test yourself, because you know what the hell you're doing. To date, I don't think anyone's ever tried to cheese it, instead leaving it as an occasional bonus - but were it to be used in another game, i would suggest limiting the dice to half the knowledge skill's rating, round up. This gives people a reason to actually develop experience, and raise knowledge skills, instead of just getting an active skill at 6 and calling it done.

Oh, some knowledge skills are clearly more useful than others. Magic Knowledge and Arcana, for example, have been essential to mages from day 1.

I try to make the General knowledge skills useful every once in a while. Security design/Procedures pops up a lot in my game, simply because two players have it. The broader the skill, the more useful it becomes; I try and balance this by making the threshold higher on the general skill, but sometimes it's the only way to get the knowledge into the game, so I can't make it too high.

But I love to see vanity skills. Sometimes they even see use, like my mage with the Fashion skill. She also has the Fashion and Makeover spell, so sometimes GM's have let me use the knowledge skill as complimentary dice. It means I can make my disguises look very good, and we can pass off as a higher class of wageslave if need be. Other skills, like the sam with NASCAR racing and Farming, are probably never going to see the light of day. And that's okay, too; it just shows that there's more to him than shadowrunning.

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

Trid Shows
Unless you have Gremlins'4, I think most characters would have this skill at least rank 1, and it is actually extremely useful. What kind of paranormal animal is that??...you remember seeing this on Discovery Awakened Channel. Does that orc look familiar to me? You recognize him, he's an Ares Corporate Executive's son, he's on The Real Sixth World.

Isn't that really skill 0 (defaulting), though. Doesn't level 0 imply a level of knowledge that anyone would know by default. For instance, even with 0 in Pilot Groundcraft, you would be acquainted via general culture that to drive a car, you sit in the seat with the steering wheel, and you know that you turn the vehicle by turning the steering wheel, and push pedals to make it go and stop, and turn a key to start the engine. You will still have much trouble as you don't know the details like which pedal does what, and how much to turn the wheel, and such, so you would be terrible (thus defaulting at attrib-1).

I would say you could default on a knowledge test as well, instead of requiring skill 1 to be able to know that. I'm sure there would have been cheezy movies about most common paranormal animals and such that everyone would have come across.

[CanRay]

Now *that* would be an interesting Shadowrun, trying to sabotage a NASCAR race. And then placing a bet on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Oh man, considering Nas' background, if he found out that's what really happened...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh man, considering Nas' background, if he found out that's what really happened...

He'd Smile?

[CanRay]

Oh man, considering Nas' background, if he found out that's what really happened...

He'd Smile?

Read "A Night To Never Remember", it's in my sig.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Read "A Night To Never Remember", it's in my sig.

Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

This is one concept I've stolen from another game, Savage Worlds. They have the "common knowledge" roll, which is just a generic roll to see if you know stuff that isn't covered elsewhere. I just allow a straight Logic roll, no defaulting penalty, for everyday things. For example, where's the nearest Stuffer Shack? No penalty, just roll Logic.

[CanRay]

So, something like common sense?

[Cain]

Not really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's mostly for the everyday things they should know, that aren't covered by existing knowledge skills.

For example: what's the shortest route out of the Barrens? If the character lives in the Barrens, he should know that. But, if he's being chased, it might be important-- I can't just hand it to the player. It also seems unfair to require an Area Knowledge: My Own Neighborhood skill, so I give them a roll at straight Logic, no defaulting penalty. Someone who didn't live in the Barrens, but did a lot of business there, might have the roll at a small penalty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Not really. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) It's mostly for the everyday things they should know, that aren't covered by existing knowledge skills.

For example: what's the shortest route out of the Barrens? If the character lives in the Barrens, he should know that. But, if he's being chased, it might be important-- I can't just hand it to the player. It also seems unfair to require an Area Knowledge: My Own Neighborhood skill, so I give them a roll at straight Logic, no defaulting penalty. Someone who didn't live in the Barrens, but did a lot of business there, might have the roll at a small penalty.

Covered: Area Knowledge Barrens (Shortcuts)

Your method is useful (gets you a bonus of 1 Dice over Defaulting) for some of the common things, but I just go with the rules for defaulting, personally.

[Draco18s]

Hey, 6 ranks in cyberpunk fiction and pen&paper RPGs is a great investment.

I always joke about that one to new players. "ShadowRun 1st Edition is technically in ShadowRun canon, you could take a knowledge skill for it."

[CanRay]

6 Ranks in Porn will give you an idea of how to build an investment portfolio with both legitimate and illegitimate organizations that would make a Don's Money Launderer choke. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[CanadianWolverin...]

Also, at our table, we have a houserule for knowledge skills. If you have one that applies to a task at hand, you can use your knowledge skill to Teamwork Test yourself, because you know what the hell you're doing. To date, I don't think anyone's ever tried to cheese it, instead leaving it as an occasional bonus - but were it to be used in another game, i would suggest limiting the dice to half the knowledge skill's rating, round up. This gives people a reason to actually develop experience, and raise knowledge skills, instead of just getting an active skill at 6 and calling it done.

That is a houserule I advocate as well, only to limit the cheese, I limit the dice as such: You only get bonus dice from your Knowledge Skill Team Test(s), to be used at a later date on the run, from your planning and legwork (see: Preparation) stage of the run, after that Active skills are in effect and the bonus from the Knowledge skills gets used up when appropriate to abstractly represent how the runner used their knowledge of whatever to improve their chances on the run. If a Complication comes up that wasn't planned for, no bonus knowledge dice for it. Its sorta like a more limited (GM discretion, situational) edge pool with no exploding dice. Hannibal from the A-Team would be crazy good at this, just to think of a fictional example - "I love it when a plan comes together..."

I hope that makes sense, I think I have mentioned this idea before in other threads.

[Cain]

Covered: Area Knowledge Barrens (Shortcuts)

Your method is useful (gets you a bonus of 1 Dice over Defaulting) for some of the common things, but I just go with the rules for defaulting, personally.

You can't have knowledge skills for everything. You only have so many points, and if you go over your freebies, you start cutting into points that could be used for other things. I think it's kinda unfair to make characters spend points to know how to find the corner market in their own neighborhood.

To go with another example: my players don't know as much about the Shadowrun world as I do. The characters should know where things like Dunkelzahn's Rift is, but ofttimes the players don't. If one piece of common knowledge becomes important, they can make a straight Logic roll for it. Knowledges are for specific things your character knows; Logic is for general knowledge checks.