[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't have knowledge skills for everything. You only have so many points, and if you go over your freebies, you start cutting into points that could be used for other things. I think it's kinda unfair to make characters spend points to know how to find the corner market in their own neighborhood.

To go with another example: my players don't know as much about the Shadowrun world as I do. The characters should know where things like Dunkelzahn's Rift is, but ofttimes the players don't. If one piece of common knowledge becomes important, they can make a straight Logic roll for it. Knowledges are for specific things your character knows; Logic is for general knowledge checks.

Which is covered by the Attribute-1 Skill Test normally used for Defaulting. Don't see any problems with that. Which is why the Defaulting rules are there, after all. As I said, I have no real issues with your solution. It only adds 1 Dice to the role, after all. I just do not use that. I stick with the rules for defaulting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Okay, but I also have a Logic 1 troll running around in my game. This was against my better judgement: the character was designed by a person no longer allowed at my table, and the player has special needs, so he didn't fully understand how badly he was gimping his character. But he was convinced that trading mental stats for Body was the way to go. He's learned some since; but technically speaking, he can't even roll to find the nearest bathroom. That's simply not right: even Logic 1 characters, crippled as they are, should know some things without needing a specific skill.

[Nath]

Logic 1. The character has the shortest attention span you can imagine, short of brain trauma or disease. When he wake up in the morning, he has a hard time remembering what was on the evening news yesterday, often because he don't care (he would have invested some karma in a knowledge skills otherwise). Maybe he'd get a bonus to remember the commercials. The only "knowledge" he has are related to his job, and actually are Active Skills. To find the bathrooms, he should rely on a Memory Test (Logic+Willpower) if he ever came there, or an English Test (no test since rating is "N") to read the signs on every door and understand its meaning. I would consider standard pictographs as a Native language skill to anyone raised in a modern country.

The characters should know where things like Dunkelzahn's Rift is, but ofttimes the players don't.

I was wondering, how many people know what happened on Dealey Plaza (but to be fair, Dunkelzahn's death is a lot more recent events to SR characters) ?

On the original topic, you may take a look at Universal Decimal Classification, or Dewey Decimal System, or Library of Congress Classification. They have yet to include magic...

[Cain]

Logic 1. The character has the shortest attention span you can imagine, short of brain trauma or disease. When he wake up in the morning, he has a hard time remembering what was on the evening news yesterday, often because he don't care (he would have invested some karma in a knowledge skills otherwise). Maybe he'd get a bonus to remember the commercials. The only "knowledge" he has are related to his job, and actually are Active Skills. To find the bathrooms, he should rely on a Memory Test (Logic+Willpower) if he ever came there, or an English Test (no test since rating is "N") to read the signs on every door and understand its meaning. I would consider standard pictographs as a Native language skill to anyone raised in a modern country.

<snip>

On the original topic, you may take a look at Universal Decimal Classification, or Dewey Decimal System, or Library of Congress Classification. They have yet to include magic...

Logic of 1 is indeed a mental cripple. And he has a Willpower and Charisma of 1, to boot. I could not convince this player that this was a severely gimped build; his special needs make him hard to convince. That said, it seems unfair to require him to make more mental tests than someone with a 2 or 3 in their mental stats. Even requiring a memory test is bad, since there's a good chance he'll critically botch it, and be unable to find his way to the restroom.

But even for a severely mentally disabled individual, there's some things they should know without requiring a skill. There should be no chance of him critically botching when he ties his shoes. Heck, the player has special needs, and he knows a lot of random tidbits that shouldn't even be lumped into a knowledge skill. For example, no SR4.5 character I've ever seen has UCAS politics on their knowledge list, but they can all name a couple of Presidents. By going straight Logic, as opposed to defaulting, this troll actually is allowed to know basic, everyday things. For example, he remembers where the local Stuffer Shack is, the names of his friends, and so on and so forth. (The player is indeed learning, for the record: he's raising his Willpower and Charisma, and is working on Logic.)

BTW: Dewey Decimal system does have a classification for magic. It's under 110, for Metaphysics. Yes, I used to volunteer in a library. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[UmaroVI]

The other problem is this: if the Troll has to make a logic+willpower test to find the nearest bathroom, then Joe Average should too. But Joe Average with 6 dice on that test has about a 9% chance of failing. Do you really think that an average person has almost a 10% chance of failing to find a bathroom? Really? And if it's because the troll has 0 dice on defaulted Knowledge: Where The Bathroom Is At tests, then Joe Average also has a 45% chance of failing that one. I'm pretty sure an average person can find a bathroom more often than THAT.

I would argue that the answer here is pretty simple: the troll only has to roll when you'd make anyone else roll. If you make everyone roll .Logic-1 to find bathrooms than the troll will indeed have trouble finding bathrooms, but really I'd rather spend my time doing other things that playing Shadowrestroom

[Bodak]

This gives people a reason to actually develop experience, and raise knowledge skills, instead of just getting an active skill at 6 and calling it done.

In SR3 I think there was an optional chargen rule (at least, I don't think it was a house-rule) that having an Active skill at a certain rank granted for free the associated Background Knowledge skill at Active rank -3. This could then be raised (if desired) independently from that rank by spending build points. The philosophy was that training an Active skill to a high rating is accompanied by study of the theory or increased awareness of the field.

[Cain]

The other problem is this: if the Troll has to make a logic+willpower test to find the nearest bathroom, then Joe Average should too. But Joe Average with 6 dice on that test has about a 9% chance of failing. Do you really think that an average person has almost a 10% chance of failing to find a bathroom? Really? And if it's because the troll has 0 dice on defaulted Knowledge: Where The Bathroom Is At tests, then Joe Average also has a 45% chance of failing that one. I'm pretty sure an average person can find a bathroom more often than THAT.

I would argue that the answer here is pretty simple: the troll only has to roll when you'd make anyone else roll. If you make everyone roll .Logic-1 to find bathrooms than the troll will indeed have trouble finding bathrooms, but really I'd rather spend my time doing other things that playing Shadowrestroom

The actual solution is: Don't take Logic at 1, but that's beside the point.

I try to only make players roll when it's significant. However, sometimes some stuff might come up that's simply not covered under their Knowledge skills. Making them default to something that should be common knowledge seems excessive to me; a roll at straight Logic is enough. For example, where's the nearest Stuffer Shack? If it's in your neighborhood, you shouldn't need to take Area Knowledge: My Own Backyard to have a chance to find it. And for a evening walk, I'd just let the players have it. But if they're running out of ammo and need reloads in a hurry, Stuffer Shack might be the quickest place to go. The troll should have a chance to find it, just like everyone else.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The actual solution is: Don't take Logic at 1, but that's beside the point.

I try to only make players roll when it's significant. However, sometimes some stuff might come up that's simply not covered under their Knowledge skills. Making them default to something that should be common knowledge seems excessive to me; a roll at straight Logic is enough. For example, where's the nearest Stuffer Shack? If it's in your neighborhood, you shouldn't need to take Area Knowledge: My Own Backyard to have a chance to find it. And for a evening walk, I'd just let the players have it. But if they're running out of ammo and need reloads in a hurry, Stuffer Shack might be the quickest place to go. The troll should have a chance to find it, just like everyone else.

The actual Solution is: Don't make them roll for stuff that is of no consequence...

As for your example of the Stuffer Shack. Use your Comlink. Nearest one will pop up in your window, and give you instructions on how to get there. What is so hard about that. You can do that today even.

If you are making them roll for every little thing that may have an impact; that is where you are making your mistake. Your Comlink will serve to identify 99% of the things you want in your neighborhood.

[Cain]

Didn't I mention: Logic of 1.

He has no Computer or Data Search skill either. Or a Browse program. Which means, if he tries to default, he actually has less of a dice pool than if I made him roll a defaulted Knowledge check. He knows how to voice dial, and that's about it. Actually trying to dial up the location of the nearest ammo store, while under fire, is an example of a good time to roll.

The point is, even as crippled as he is, he should know some things without investing in a knowledge skill. He should not get lost jandering to the local Stuffer Shack.

[CanRay]

With a Logic of 1, a fellow might get lost in his own museum!

[Draco18s]

Didn't I mention: Logic of 1.

He has no Computer or Data Search skill either. Or a Browse program.

If he has a comlink, it has Browse 1.

[Cain]

And with no Data Search skill, his dice pool is still 0. He can't even use it unless I handwave it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And with no Data Search skill, his dice pool is still 0. He can't even use it unless I handwave it.

Again, why are you making him make a Data Search Roll? He asks his comlink, and it outputs a Destination. Are you seriously telling me that you make a character actually make a roll to find a Soykaf shop or Azmart? Really? This falls into the category if irrelevant information. Why are you having your players make a roll for irrelevant information? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

The actual Solution is: Don't make them roll for stuff that is of no consequence...

As for your example of the Stuffer Shack. Use your Comlink. Nearest one will pop up in your window, and give you instructions on how to get there. What is so hard about that. You can do that today even.

If you are making them roll for every little thing that may have an impact; that is where you are making your mistake. Your Comlink will serve to identify 99% of the things you want in your neighborhood.

I'm pretty sure if you want that level of detail on any neighbourhood, you need a mapsoft.

If he has a comlink, it has Browse 1.

Actually, it is Scan 1 that comes for free. Browse has to be purchased seperately.

[Draco18s]

Actually, it is Scan 1 that comes for free. Browse has to be purchased seperately.

In 90 seconds I was unable to locate a reference for either (too lazy right now, and it's too unimportant) so I'm going to let it drop.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm pretty sure if you want that level of detail on any neighbourhood, you need a mapsoft.

Who needs the level of detail at the Map level? Type in what you want, the device outputs 10 locations. As I indicated, you can do that, even today, and in environments that you have absolutely no clue about.

A Mapsoft would work as well, but it is not really necessary. Especially since your vehicle can go there automatically with a spoken command and no skill.

[CanadianWolverin...]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I feel like an important thing was over looked in this conversation-

Q: Where does a maxed out physical attribute Troll pee?

A: ANYWHERE HE WANTS.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In SR3 I think there was an optional chargen rule (at least, I don't think it was a house-rule) that having an Active skill at a certain rank granted for free the associated Background Knowledge skill at Active rank -3. This could then be raised (if desired) independently from that rank by spending build points. The philosophy was that training an Active skill to a high rating is accompanied by study of the theory or increased awareness of the field.

I like that rule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

Again, why are you making him make a Data Search Roll? He asks his comlink, and it outputs a Destination. Are you seriously telling me that you make a character actually make a roll to find a Soykaf shop or Azmart? Really? This falls into the category if irrelevant information. Why are you having your players make a roll for irrelevant information? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Only under stress, or under fire. Orr when it's funny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But if it ever becomes relevant, there's just some things anyone should know, without a defaulting penalty, no matter what their Logic is. Knowledge skills does not adequately cover it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Only under stress, or under fire. Orr when it's funny. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But if it ever becomes relevant, there's just some things anyone should know, without a defaulting penalty, no matter what their Logic is. Knowledge skills does not adequately cover it.

I can see your argument. Like Usual, We see things a bit differently in the end. No worries though, it all works out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aku]

If I ever come across a GM that would make me roll to find a bathroom, the next character i make for him/her would have 6 ranks in Knowledge:Life Lessons

[Cain]

I can see your argument. Like Usual, We see things a bit differently in the end. No worries though, it all works out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The point is, defaulting to knowledge skills does not adequately model what people really should know. Your method doesn't work out, since the troll wouldn't be able to find his local Stuffer Shack, even with a commlink with GPS.

If I ever come across a GM that would make me roll to find a bathroom, the next character i make for him/her would have 6 ranks in Knowledge:Life Lessons

Life lesson: never make a troll with willpower 1. Your comment has inspired me: at some point during a battle, a mage is going to cast Influence on him, and he has to find the bathroom. His successes determine how long it takes to find one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The point is, defaulting to knowledge skills does not adequately model what people really should know. Your method doesn't work out, since the troll wouldn't be able to find his local Stuffer Shack, even with a commlink with GPS.

But this is where you and I would disagree. I would never require a roll for such things in the first place, where apparently, you would. And my example WOULD work out, because there is absolutely no need for a Roll to begin with. Especially since all the Logic 1 Troll would have to do is TELL HIS CAR to take him there. Done.

Knowledge skills are for things that you specifically concentrate upon in your life. I can guarantee, I do not concentrate on where my Local Grocery Store is located. That falls into the realm of knowledge that requires no skill, and no roll.

Remember, Logic 1 IS NOT NON-FUNCTIONAL. It DOES NOT denote someone with Mental Retardation. That requires other Negative Qualities, that could apply regardless of whether the Logic Attribute was a 1 or 7. I have known fully functional people that I would stat at a Logic of 1. They are still functional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Cain]

I would if it matters. Or if it's funny. Humor is a big part of my game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But according to RAW, he can't even do that. He's got no Pilot skill, so he has to default to something. Gridguide would be nice, except his history has him living in the Barrens, where there is no Gridguide. Technically speaking, he cannot do anything that requires a default to Logic, which includes just about every knowledge skill, including Area Knowledge.

But like I said: suppose some crafty mage casts Influence on him, to make him go to the restroom? With a willpower of 1, the mage will get a critical success, so the troll will need to find a bathroom in a big hurry. Suddenly being able to find a restroom *matters*. You can swap this with any other logic-linked roll; but finding the bathroom illustrates the point: by your rules (defaulting) he can't even find the bathroom. At least under my Common Knowledge houserule, he has a chance.

[Draco18s]

But according to RAW, he can't even do that. He's got no Pilot skill, so he has to default to something. Gridguide would be nice, except his history has him living in the Barrens, where there is no Gridguide. Technically speaking, he cannot do anything that requires a default to Logic, which includes just about every knowledge skill, including Area Knowledge.

You realize that Driving 0 is enough to actually drive a car, right? It just means that if you're forced to make any kind of test to avoid crashing or doing a complex maneuver (more than shifting lanes) you fail. You can still get from Point A to Point B safely 99% of the time (it's that 1% or less time where that jackass cuts you off and you don't slam on the breaks soon enough to avoid him that you have to worry about).

[Udoshi]

He has no Computer or Data Search skill either. Or a Browse program. l.

Nitpick: You default to Program-1 on the matrix, not Skill, because you default to Attribute and Program replaces Attribute.
See FAQ for details.


that being said, logic 1 still sucks.