[X] My Assistant

[Cain]

Nitpick: You default to Program-1 on the matrix, not Skill, because you default to Attribute and Program replaces Attribute.
See FAQ for details.


that being said, logic 1 still sucks.

I'm aware of that. Since he has no Program, his default is still a -1. So, no, he can't use Google 2070 on his commlink according to RAW.

[Midas]

Interesting all this anti-LOG 1 bias, especially considering how many Dumpshockers consider dumpstating STR 1 a clever thing to do. LOG 1 ain't brainless drooling imbecile, just as STR 1 characters ain't puny weaklings who can't lift anything heavier than a light pistol without breaking a sweat.

Considering how intuitive use of 2011 smartphones can be, your LOG 1 character shouldn't have a problem working the GPS on his 2071 commlink. RAW only requires rolls for difficult tasks or tasks under duress. As stated above, a REA 1 character with no skill can still drive a car, they'd just better hope they don't have to make a crash test during the drive. A CHR 1 character with no ettiquette skill can still order a drink in a bar. RAW thankfully does not try and bog things down by making characters roll for doing everyday tasks.

Your STR 1 no Climbing skill character can still get over a waist high wall, although they may take more time than everyone else and look rather awkward doing so. Under enemy fire is another thing entirely, and the poor mook is likely to get shot down as he/she tries to straddle the obstacle. In a similar way, your LOG 1 character can find the nearest Stuffer Shack or public toilet under normal circumstances. But when the lead's flying, panic might set in and he/she might make the wrong turn etc.

[Cain]

Considering how intuitive use of 2011 smartphones can be, your LOG 1 character shouldn't have a problem working the GPS on his 2071 commlink. RAW only requires rolls for difficult tasks or tasks under duress. As stated above, a REA 1 character with no skill can still drive a car, they'd just better hope they don't have to make a crash test during the drive. A CHR 1 character with no ettiquette skill can still order a drink in a bar. RAW thankfully does not try and bog things down by making characters roll for doing everyday tasks.

The amount of duress required varies considerably, from GM to GM. Also, there's just some things characters should know, even if they haven't invested in the appropriate Knowledge skills. I haven't seen anyone take Knowledge: UCAS politics, but the characters should be able to say who the UCAS president is.

[Minimax le Rouge]

Logic 1 and willpower 1?
hum right... raise your lifestyle by 20%. Yes, you send money to televangelists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Blade]

Logic 1 and willpower 1?
hum right... raise your lifestyle by 20%. Yes, you send money to televangelists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

By 50%: with 2 dice for memory tests you regularly critical glitches and forget you sent the money.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The amount of duress required varies considerably, from GM to GM. Also, there's just some things characters should know, even if they haven't invested in the appropriate Knowledge skills. I haven't seen anyone take Knowledge: UCAS politics, but the characters should be able to say who the UCAS president is.

Interesting as I have a character with just that Skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And you are correct, to a degree. There are things a character should know without a relevant Knowledge Skill. These things are not represented by any rolls at all, as far as I can see in game. My question is still... Why do you want to represent them with such?

[CanRay]

"Dunkie's still president, right?"

[Cain]

Interesting as I have a character with just that Skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And you are correct, to a degree. There are things a character should know without a relevant Knowledge Skill. These things are not represented by any rolls at all, as far as I can see in game. My question is still... Why do you want to represent them with such?

Because sometimes it does matter. A character without Area Background should still be able to find his way around his own home, even if he's under fire. Sometimes knowing things matter, like knowing that walking up to the Dunkelzahn Rift, sticking your arm through, and waggling your fingers at yourself is A Bad Idea. (The player, as I mentioned, is special needs: I give him the Common Sense Plus edge, for free, as often as I can.)

And there are things that sometimes pop up. For example, who is the current US vice-president? According to Senate.gov, most Americans can't answer that. But if you wanted to impress the players with how powerful the people they're dealing with really are, linking things to a vice-presidential visit might be a good plot device. Recognizing a famous star is another thing.

The whole reason we have Knowledge skills is because sometimes knowing things matter. If you're having players roll Knowledge checks *at all*, then you're representing this fact in game. If you're having players roll defaulted Knowledge checks, then you're recognizing the fact that there are some things players should know, without a relevant Knowledge check. To be very specific here, that's what I'm arguing against: a defaulting penalty on common knowledge. Defaulting shouldn't be necessary for some things; it renders certain characters utterly unable to find the bathroom.

[Draco18s]

And there are things that sometimes pop up. For example, who is the current US vice-president?

[ Spoiler ]

Joe Biden. Holy crap, I know that. For a second there I was sitting going, "Damn, I don't know. What an uneducated bum I am."
I will, however, admit I have no idea who my senators and house representatives are.

[Aku]

[ Spoiler ]

Joe Biden. Holy crap, I know that. For a second there I was sitting going, "Damn, I don't know. What an uneducated bum I am."
I will, however, admit I have no idea who my senators and house representatives are.

I had the same thought, then i went "i think it's ..."

[Yerameyahu]

Wouldn't he just *look* for the bathroom? Most people don't know where they are in a given unfamiliar building. They wander around until they find them, aided perhaps by a general idea of where bathrooms tend to be (maybe an architecture Know), and of course by looking for signs (not to mention the obvious commlink/AR point, already mentioned). Or by simply asking someone. It's not a Knowledge skill at all.

I know it's just an example, and the skill ranks system is indeed crazy (at the low end, and the high end). It's just not a good example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wouldn't he just *look* for the bathroom? Most people don't know where they are in a given unfamiliar building. They wander around until they find them, aided perhaps by a general idea of where bathrooms tend to be (maybe an architecture Know), and of course by looking for signs (not to mention the obvious commlink/AR point, already mentioned). Or by simply asking someone. It's not a Knowledge skill at all.

I have to agree with this sentiment. I tend to "Just Look" for such things in an unfamiliar building. Having to roll a knowledge check for something that cannot possibly be known unless you were the guy who designed the building, or you are the guy who downloads building schematics just to study, seems like a waste of game time to me. It is not a skill, nor should it be; and it does not need a general Knowledge Check, nor should it require one.

As Yerameyahu indicated, it is a bad example.

As for the question: Who is the Vice President? Seems like a good place for a Politics skill check, or a Defaulted general knowledge check. The problem with your assumptions, Cain, is that Common Knowledge is generally not, to someone. Thus the Defaulting Skill Check. By your own admission, most Americans DO NOT KNOW WHO THE VP IS. Seems like you are making my point for me. Why should this be COMMON KNOWLEDGE, if it is really not all that common?

Defaulting works. And in the End, there are just some things that should never require a roll. Why? Because they are Common Knowledge.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aku]

To be fair, the VP really is not going to have a place in American minds, unless something happens to the President, or he goes and shoots people while turkey hunting

[Jhaiisiin]

Point of order: Many knowledge skills link to intuition, and I'd rule that figuring out where the bathroom is comes from intuition. It's really easy to guess where a bathroom will be located in any given locale.

[Mardrax]

Point of order: Many knowledge skills link to intuition, and I'd rule that figuring out where the bathroom is comes from intuition. It's really easy to guess where a bathroom will be located in any given locale.

Q: Where does a maxed out physical attribute Troll pee?

A: ANYWHERE HE WANTS.

Finding the Bathroom for this character should definitely be the best definition of 'Street' knowledge you can find.
Not just for this character either. Come on! It's the barrens. Who's going to stop you from whizzing against a wall/tree/(burnt out husk of a) car?

[CanRay]

Not just for this character either. Come on! It's the barrens. Who's going to stop you from whizzing against a wall/tree/(burnt out husk of a) car?

Free Toxic Spirits that live in those items?

When a burnt out husk of a car stands up and starts peeing on you, then lights a match and sets you on fire with it, people take notice and don't pee there.

[HunterHerne]

Free Toxic Spirits that live in those items?

When a burnt out husk of a car stands up and starts peeing on you, then lights a match and sets you on fire with it, people take notice and don't pee there.

I think I have a new run idea...

[Traul]

Free Toxic Spirits that live in those items?

When a burnt out husk of a car stands up and starts peeing on you, then lights a match and sets you on fire with it, people take notice and don't pee there.

Penis go boom.

[CanRay]

I think I have a new run idea...

I seem to give so many of those. Maybe I should do some writing or something...

Penis go boom.

Ah Minmax the Warrior... Developing an actual character nicely!

This helped me think of him in a better light, however.

[Draco18s]

I seem to give so many of those. Maybe I should do some writing or something...Ah Minmax the Warrior... Developing an actual character nicely!

This helped me think of him in a better light, however.

That's why I like the one...knife? brass knuckles? ring? that heals people when you punch them.

[Cain]

As for the question: Who is the Vice President? Seems like a good place for a Politics skill check, or a Defaulted general knowledge check. The problem with your assumptions, Cain, is that Common Knowledge is generally not, to someone. Thus the Defaulting Skill Check. By your own admission, most Americans DO NOT KNOW WHO THE VP IS. Seems like you are making my point for me. Why should this be COMMON KNOWLEDGE, if it is really not all that common?

Defaulting works. And in the End, there are just some things that should never require a roll. Why? Because they are Common Knowledge.

Defaulting doesn't work, because as you pointed out, there's some things people should know. Not all pieces of common knowledge are Common, as the vice-president example shows. Some things matter. And just because you have to default, shouldn't make it impossible to know common things.

[Bodak]

This gives people a reason to actually develop experience, and raise knowledge skills, instead of just getting an active skill at 6 and calling it done.

In SR3 I think there was an optional chargen rule (at least, I don't think it was a house-rule) that having an Active skill at a certain rank granted for free the associated Background Knowledge skill at Active rank -3. This could then be raised (if desired) independently from that rank by spending build points. The philosophy was that training an Active skill to a high rating is accompanied by study of the theory or increased awareness of the field.

Ah here it is:

Background Knowledge
As a character with an Active Skill becomes more proficient with it, he or she begins to learn theoretical backgrouond knowledge in that field. To represent this, gamemasters may allow players to assume, either at character generation or at no cost during play, Background Skills at a rating of 3 less than the rating in each related Active Skill they have. For example, if a character has Demolitions 5, that character would also have Background in Demolitions 2. As long as the Background Skill rating remains 3 less than the Active Skill rating, the player need not improve this Knowledge Skill; it automatically improves along with the Active Skill. If the player wants the Background Knowledge Skill to be higher than the Active Skill rating minus 3, he or she must improve it like any other Knowledge Skill.

[Traul]

Defaulting doesn't work, because as you pointed out, there's some things people should know. Not all pieces of common knowledge are Common, as the vice-president example shows. Some things matter. And just because you have to default, shouldn't make it impossible to know common things.

Is there any reason not to use this for knowledge skills?

The gamemaster should not require a player to make a test when the action is something that the character should be expected to do without difficulty. For example, if a character is driving downtown to buy soymilk and NERPS, no test is necessary.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Is there any reason not to use this for knowledge skills?

Because Cain wants everyone with a Logic of 1 to actually roll (and have a chance of Critically Glitching) to find a Bathroom in extremis? Personally, those types of things should NEVER call for a roll. If it is Common Knowledge, it is assumed to be known, after all. At which point, no roll should ever be required.

[Cain]

Because Cain wants everyone with a Logic of 1 to actually roll (and have a chance of Critically Glitching) to find a Bathroom in extremis? Personally, those types of things should NEVER call for a roll. If it is Common Knowledge, it is assumed to be known, after all. At which point, no roll should ever be required.

Sometimes it matters. And if it does, people with a Logic of 1 should have a chance.

Recently, someone asked my players the VP question as an example. For some odd reason, it was the troll's player (who is special needs) who came up with the right answer: Biden. Now, this guy might charitably be given a Logic of 1; his schooling and ability to make conclusions is decidedly lacking. He doesn't remember who was President when he was born, but he was the one who came up with the correct answer. (He can also do Imperial to Metric conversions in his head, a trick I never mastered.)

By *your* rules, it's either yes or no. The GM is sole arbiter of what a player character knows. You're essentially committing an either/or fallacy: there are situations in between.