Technomancer's 4th pass, Is it possible for a technomancer to achieve a 4th matirix pass? Options

[Marvelous Marvin]

Mages and Adepts have never had trouble reaching 4 passes. The path has always been clear.

Augmented's addition of the Simsense Booster its possible for riggers and hackers to get to 4 passes in VR.

But is there a way for a technomancer to get there? Did I miss something in Unwired?

[Elfenlied]

Yes, there are two ways, both by submerging. One is called "Acceleration", and grants physical IP. The other is called "(Advanced) Overclocking", and grants Matrix IP. You can even gain a fifth IP in full VR!

[Harboe]

Echoes. Either in meatspace or the matrix.
He can even get a 5th initiative pass.

[Marvelous Marvin]

Yes, there are two ways, both by submerging. One is called "Acceleration", and grants physical IP. The other is called "(Advanced) Overclocking", and grants Matrix IP. You can even gain a fifth IP in full VR!

Is this in Unwired?

[Makki]

isn't Acceleration for meat IPs only and Overclocking for VR? Additionally, nothing restricts the TM to get the implant.

[Xahn Borealis]

I think Simsense Boosters also work with Living Personas.

[Udoshi]

I think Simsense Boosters also work with Living Personas.

it does, per the FAQ.

Overclocking is core book.(4th) Advanced overclocking(5th pass, exception to 4pass rule text) is unwired.

Drugs also work. A technomancer getting high can deck faster, because extra IPs are extra IPs, and it doesn't matter if they're matrix or not. It also makes some amount of sense that a guy who hacks with their brain who then takes meth hacks faster. This is not an optimal solution, because drug use can lead to a decrease of resonance abilities through essence loss caused by addiction.

[Yerameyahu]

That can't be right. Drugs (and *everything* that gives extra IPs) are meat IPs. Unless you're talking about AR-hacking on *lots* of drugs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

That can't be right. Drugs (and *everything* that gives extra IPs) are meat IPs. Unless you're talking about AR-hacking on *lots* of drugs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Aaannnd here is where the burden of proof is on you.

+1 pass is +1 pass. Thats the problem with drugs. They don't have non-stacking clauses.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Aaannnd here is where the burden of proof is on you.

+1 pass is +1 pass. Thats the problem with drugs. They don't have non-stacking clauses.

Matrix initiative replaces normal init when going into VR. And that isn't boosted by drugs.

[HunterHerne]

Matrix initiative replaces normal init when going into VR. And that isn't boosted by drugs.

I don't know. The drugs that offer increased IPs generally seem to be energy drink kind of concoctions, at least to me (the obvious exception being Jazz, as it specifically says it is usually taken from a inhaler).
I may not drink many energy drinks, but the few I've had, seemed to bring my mind into greater clarity for the time, and would be willing to extend that to IP boosting drugs, which would affect all IPs, not just meat body.

[Mardrax]

I don't know. The drugs that offer increased IPs generally seem to be energy drink kind of concoctions, at least to me (the obvious exception being Jazz, as it specifically says it is usually taken from a inhaler).
I may drink many energy drinks, but the few I've had, seemed to bring my mind into greater clarity for the time, and would be willing to extend that to IP boosting drugs, which would affect all IPs, not just meat body.

Sadly, Matrix Init isn't about how quick you are, it's about how fast your gear is.

[HunterHerne]

Sadly, Matrix Init isn't about how quick you are, it's about how fast your gear is.

I thought about that when writing my response. And, is it really? Sure, some of the gear adds to the speed (Simsense boosters et al.), but in VR, you are acting at thought speeds. If your brain is thinking faster, then you should be acting faster, too.

Keep in mind, in VR, your matrix Initiative is Response+ intuition. Your body has nothing to do with it, but your mind does.
Edit: This is doubly true for Technomancers. They have no gear to determine the speed, so everything is based on the biological node.

[Yerameyahu]

The bionode+echoes *is* gear. But we're mostly talking about IPs, which are basically gear-based on the Matrix. Some ware can enhance the gear connections.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I don't know. The drugs that offer increased IPs generally seem to be energy drink kind of concoctions, at least to me (the obvious exception being Jazz, as it specifically says it is usually taken from a inhaler).
I may drink many energy drinks, but the few I've had, seemed to bring my mind into greater clarity for the time, and would be willing to extend that to IP boosting drugs, which would affect all IPs, not just meat body.

I would say that's a valid house rule, but not RAW, unfortunately.

[Udoshi]

Matrix initiative replaces normal init when going into VR. And that isn't boosted by drugs.

Not true. Matrix initiative for a technomancer is calculated using their mental stats; the living persona. Drugging up your Intuition directly affects your Matrix Initiative.

Anyway, even if you swap in Matrix Initiative(3 instea, hotsim + 1 pass is still 4).

When operating in full VR using cold sim, you use your Matrix
Initiative rather than your physical Initiative. Matrix Initiative equals
your Response + Intuition, and you receive an extra Initiative Pass (for
a total of two).

When operating with full VR using hot sim, use your Matrix
Initiative rather than your physical Initiative. Hot sim Matrix Initiative
equals your Response + Intuition + 1, and you receive two extra
Initiative Passes (for a total of three).

.
the point is that while you use your Matrix Initiave (Int+Int for a technomancer), the number of passes you possess isn't a factor of your Initiative Attribute, or your Initiative Score once you roll it. It is a seperate, distinct value.

Additionally, the idea that you're 'only as fast as your hardware on the matrix' is stupid, because anyone can spend edge to take another pass, regardless of whether they are using the matrix while running hot or cold or in AR.
Edge gives you another pass, and don't have a no-stacking clause.
Some drugs give you another pass, and also don't have a no-stacking clause.
Mechanically, how are these different to allow one but not the other? they aren't.

[Mardrax]

Additionally, the idea that you're 'only as fast as your hardware on the matrix' is stupid, because anyone can spend edge to take another pass, regardless of whether they are using the matrix while running hot or cold or in AR.

Edge, as always, is an edge case.
It's luck. Using Edge to get an extra IP on Matrix Initiative makes your gear run faster through luck. Not because you think faster.
Just like using edge to survive a 20P headshot doesn't make you survive it because you're more resilient.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Hmm... you may be on to something for technomancers. It's not spelled out, anywhere, though, so it's still a group/GM interpretation.

What counters your argument is that other meat IP boosters are not counted in VR, so that actually the "matrix initiative" argument includes IPs, not the just the init stat. Of course I'm not quite sure of the wording on those, anymore. It might just be spelled out at every instant that they don't affect matrix init, or it's spelled out in matrix init basics that meat boosters don't work. It all seemed sort of logical, until I thought about the magical alternative, where I'm now also not sure whether Improved Reflexes works in astral space. (Except you always do take active foci and spells with you while projecting...)

[Mardrax]

It all seemed sort of logical, until I thought about the magical alternative, where I'm now also not sure whether Improved Reflexes works in astral space. (Except you always do take active foci and spells with you while projecting...)

Increase Reflexes affecting Astral Initiative? No sir. You cast it while material, so it affects material things, not astral forms. And you can't cast it while astrally projecting since it's a P spell.
Of course, dual natured creatures benefit from it on both planes, since they use meat Initiative on both.

[Udoshi]

It all seemed sort of logical, until I thought about the magical alternative, where I'm now also not sure whether Improved Reflexes works in astral space.

Sadly, its a physical spell.

However, I've also been wondering if drugs help your astral initiative. Forgot to include a bit about Astral Initiative in my last post, though.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Increase Reflexes affecting Astral Initiative? No sir. You cast it while material, so it affects material things, not astral forms. And you can't cast it while astrally projecting since it's a P spell.
Of course, dual natured creatures benefit from it on both planes, since they use meat Initiative on both.

Yes, but you take active foci with you while projecting, so the sustaining focus will keep sustaining the spell on your astral body while projecting. IMHO it's another borderline case. You can rule that it doesn't work because it's a P spell, but then, for instance, Materialization is a P power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but you take active foci with you while projecting, so the sustaining focus will keep sustaining the spell on your astral body while projecting. IMHO it's another borderline case. You can rule that it doesn't work because it's a P spell, but then, for instance, Materialization is a P power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

But a Spirit is not Materialized on the Astral Plane... Spirit of the Rule, not Letter of the Rule.
And yes, I know that it should not work by definition, as the Astral is where the spirit starts out when the power is activated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

But a Spirit is not Materialized on the Astral Plane... Spirit of the Rule, not Letter of the Rule.
And yes, I know that it should not work by definition, as the Astral is where the spirit starts out when the power is activated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Meh, I think it's also spirit of the rule that Increased Ref (especially in a focus) works on the astral. It's magic, it doesn't have to be logical (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(And no, I'm not even arguing that Materialization should not work.)

So... now that we've found out that these things actually shouldn't work, how does a mage get 4IPs while projecting?

[Mardrax]

So... now that we've found out that these things actually shouldn't work, how does a mage get 4IPs while projecting?

He doesn't. This would be unbalancing in a silly way, since no other purely astral feature can achieve this.
Dual natured beings can, but that's balanced out by the fact they're tied to their fleshy form, and have to run everywhere at meat speeds. Dual natured magicians have it a bit easier in being able to stunbolt their way out of things.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He doesn't. This would be unbalancing in a silly way, since no other purely astral feature can achieve this.
Dual natured beings can, but that's balanced out by the fact they're tied to their fleshy form, and have to run everywhere at meat speeds. Dual natured magicians have it a bit easier in being able to stunbolt their way out of things.

Indeed... Well Said... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)