Some rules/mechanics questions Options

[Smirnov]

First, a small preface, if you excuse me for the high rhetoric. Our group have been playing SR4A for some time now, but not too long to consider ourselves fully proficient with rules. Questions like 'is it intended to work like this?' arise more often than not, and it's hard for us to answer these questions without any aid from more experienced players.

I don't want to start a new thread for each question, mainly because dome of them will probably be answered in one-line post and others had already been discussed, and also because there are just so many of them, that I'll be branded a spammer for sure. So i'll just use this thread to post any questions we have.



First question is about Drakes. I have read threads dedicated to them here and most of what I read only confirmed my own impressions about the metatype. But, still my question stands. Are Drakes worth anything? Given the stats, they are mainly intended for physical characters, but fluffwise I always thought of dragons and dragonkin as more magical folk. Drakes get Magic 1, but if I'm opting for Latent Dracomorphis (which is a great idea by itself - nothing beats a scene when a character turns out to be a dragon), this 'free' point is lost, as I get 'Magic 1 or keep your own', not even '+1 to Magic attribute' for my mage. Hardened Armor rocks, but it's only four points - not much, and only in dragon form, which means you can only tear and rend - no fine manipulation.
All this makes a good Drake out of Troll Adept... But out of anyone else? What am I paying 65 BPs for? And in case of Latent Dracomorphis, 120 Karma. Seriously? I can hardly imagine a game not lasting a year or more where character would have that much Karma, and then while he piles it up, other charactes will buy themselves new shiny skills, which will create a serious rift in character powerlevel. I doubt Drake bonuses would do anything to mend this rift.
Are Drakes working as intended? And if not, are there any suggestions how to make Drakes more point worthy?
Also, is there a summary of what drakes really are and how they came to be (back in the previous worlds also). I know about dragon-servant theme, but want to be sure we aren't missing any important pieces.


And some questions about magic.
Do Spirit categories mean anything when tasking said spirits? For example, I have Manipulation spirit of Fire. Can I order it not only manipulative task (what's that, anyway?), but also protect me from harm or outright destroy something? I've read through the conjuring section and can't find any real restrictions other than fluff. Am I missing something?

Also, am I right assuming that Shadow Spirits and Wild Spirits from Running Wild are considered to be Free Spirits when summoning/binding them?

The other question is about Combat mages. Are they a viable option when party has access to wide range of weaponry? And by saying 'combat mage' I mean stereotypical image of a fireball-totting spellcaster with specialization in Combat spell group, Combat-oriented Spirit Mentor, etc. I dislike the idea altogether - mages are more capable in SR than you average flamethrower, namely Manipulation and Detection spells open so many possibilities, it should be a punishable crime not to use them. Not to mention spirits. But also there comes a matter of Drain and necessary Magic rating. For example, to be on par with, say, rocket launcher, a mage must have a Magic at least of 8 and cast on full overbleed. Now he deals 16P base damage, but it comes packed with 13P Drain (if we speak about Fireball). And mage will never have the advantages of bursts, suppression and the like.
Again, am I missing something, or pure combat damage dealers are redundant and too costly to make?


Edit: sorry for the typos. Tried to catch tham all.

[Yerameyahu]

No, drakes are not 'worth it'. Be sure to Search the forums for previous discussions of why. It's a rarity tax/bad rule. *shrug* Dragons are lame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You have a Fire spirit, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The category correlations don't really mean much, if anything.

It *is* illegal to use those spells, and yeah, a rocket launcher is better. As in D&D, utility spells (and spirits) are the real power (though Stunbolt and Powerbolt are very handy—*direct* spells, not indirect). You want illusions, mind control, etc.

[Smirnov]

No, drakes are not 'worth it'. Be sure to Search the forums for previous discussions of why. It's a rarity tax/bad rule. *shrug* Dragons are lame. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Done that and that's why I'm saying that I was only reinforced in my assumption that as much as cool the concept is, the numbers just kill the whole idea.

It *is* illegal to use those spells, and yeah, a rocket launcher is better. As in D&D, utility spells (and spirits) are the real power (though Stunbolt and Powerbolt are very handy—*direct* spells, not indirect). You want illusions, mind control, etc.

Ok, let's change the wording of the question a bit.
If, say, I need to make an NPC combat mage and I want him to be if not of terrifying power, but at least fearsome enough for party to be afraid of him, what would I need to do?



And one more question.
Are Blood Spirits good for anything save depleting the Drain from Invocation/High Force Spirit? Invocation suggests it should be used on combat spirits, most of them already have Fear and Natural Weapons, Essence Drain is good almost only to sustain itself and losing greater form power almost exclusively means Blood Spirits should be Guardian Spirits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

Drakes blow chunks.

Spirit categories matter for using bound spirits to assist with casting that type of spell, but don't matter for anything else. It rarely comes up, but it's not totally unimportant.

Yes, they count as free spirits.

Blood Spirits are honestly not super impressive in my opinion, and really it's an NPC only option anyways. Blood magic is generally more good for being all DARK and SPOOKY than actually being all that effective.

Combat Mages are good, but not like you'd think.

First, rocket launchers blow. They scatter way too much and fade way too fast.

Second, rocket launchers are super obvious. You can't just walk around with a rocket launcher all the time.

Third, Indirect combat spells are a niche spell useful only for fighting drones and for AEing around corners. Stunbolt and Stunball are the power spells of the combat mage, because they are resisted with only Willpower+Counterspelling and don't do too much drain.

The balance with combat mages is this: a good combat mage will be less effective in a stand-up fight than a good street samurai, because both of them can one-round the other but the street samurai has an easier time jacking up their Initiative score. The combat mage has 3 advantages:
1) AE. There's no terribly effective nonmagical AE in shadowrun, chemical and splash grenades are not half bad but are nowhere near as effective as Stunball.
2) The mage gets plenty of useful stuff aside from blowing things up more or less "for free." If you make a badass combat mage, you can then spend a few more points to pick up a bunch of spells good for things besides blowing people up, and Assensing. Likewise, if you make a mage for other purposes, for 6 points you can pick up Stunbolt and Stunball and be plenty effective in a fight - not as good as a dedicated combat mage or a street samurai, but good enough, and you didn't pay much for the privilege.
3) Spirits. Spirits own pretty hard, and have a plethora of useful non-combat applications, as well as being able to summon spirits that are very good in a fight.

[Medicineman]

Latent Dracomorphis Sucks (ImO ) as you need to save 130 Karma just for a few physical attributes.
You should also choose an awakened Char and these need all the Karma they can get and its (also ImO) impossible to save these 130 Karma

Welll, Drakes themselves on the other Hand might be worth it....
If You know how to gather Synergy Effects
(I'm playing a surged Fomori Drake mystic Adept she has granite (Jade) skin and mystic armor)
or If You want to play a really unorthodox/extraordinary Char
(She is 15 Year Old Vietnamese and the Daughter of a Rice Farmer that spent the last two Years in a buddhistic/Shaolin Monastery where she was enclosed when she Surged until she was discovered by Perianwyr (whom she calls Uncle Peri)
This Character has to be MinMaxed a lot and she still starts lacking a lot of things (CHA 1,LOG 1 and Edge 1)
but I think its worth it if You give it a try
A Drake is a "longtime developement Char" thats needs at least 100-150 Karma to ....blossom fully (depends upon the Char Concept.Mine is a Wushu-Wujen)

with a traditional vietnamese Dance
Medicineman

[Aerospider]

AFB but don't all the drakes come with two or three +2 attribute boosts? There's 40/60 BP right there. Add in the other abilities and it's not so bad.

[UmaroVI]

It really, really is that bad. It is terrible in fact. You pay a huge amount, you only get the boosts in drake form (which locks out your ability to use gear, armor, etc), you are dual-natured which is very dangerous, etc.

If you really, really want to be a dragon SO BAD then go for it, it's just seriously suboptimal.

[Aerospider]

It really, really is that bad. It is terrible in fact. You pay a huge amount, you only get the boosts in drake form (which locks out your ability to use gear, armor, etc), you are dual-natured which is very dangerous, etc.

If you really, really want to be a dragon SO BAD then go for it, it's just seriously suboptimal.

Ah, didn't see it only applies to dragon form. Yeah, that sucks.

Easiest fix - agree a reduction in cost with your GM.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, didn't see it only applies to dragon form. Yeah, that sucks.

Easiest fix - agree a reduction in cost with your GM.

Or just apply the stat Boosts to both forms... Easy peasy... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Smirnov]

Thanks for all the answers!
I think we'll go for houseruling Drakes if need arises. But maybe that's just how they should be - Threats2 and DotSW depict them pretty much as killing machines, so maybe toning down the cost will do. And I think I got Combat Mages. Less Fireball, More Manaball (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )
I have a bunch of new questions (and couple of old ones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )


Am I right assuming that Shadow Spirits and Wild Spirits from Running Wild are considered to be Free Spirits when summoning/binding them?


Are Blood Spirits good for anything save depleting the Drain from Invocation/High Force Spirit? Invocation suggests it should be used on combat spirits, most of them already have Fear and Natural Weapons, Essence Drain is good almost only to sustain itself and losing greater form power almost exclusively means Blood Spirits should be Guardian Spirits


I can't get the idea behind Essence and Magic correlation. If my Essence drops by a point, I lose a point of Magic, that's easy. I can buy it back, that's easy too. But what about maximums? I read that maximum Magic can't be higher than Essence rating. But it doesn't make sense because by RAW Initiation won't do anything as you can't have more Magic than Essence. Can someone clear this out for me?


I've read the summoming/banishing threads and I got a question. If I need to dispatch of a spirit - a watcher or a bound spirit - quietly, so that his conjurer doesn't know that the spirit was killed/banished, what should I do?


Also there are two questions which have no connection to game mechanics, but they are bothering me a lot.
First of all, is 2XS the JackPoint poster connected to Dirk Montgomery?
And secondly, is there any reason why Aztechnology is evil save for the sake of being evil?

[Yerameyahu]

The max is Essence + Initiations, which is the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's impossible to get rid of a spirit without the 'owner' knowing, AFAIK. They have a bond. AFAIK.

… Cuz they're evil. That's what evil people do. Spiral argument, go!

[Smirnov]

The max is Essence + Initiations, which is the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok, that makes sense, thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's impossible to get rid of a spirit without the 'owner' knowing, AFAIK. They have a bond. AFAIK.

Makes sense too... But it makes spirits the ultimate defence. If it sits and watches, it sits and watches and tells what it sees/reacts to the intrusion. Even if it gets killed before it could sound the alarm, the mage (who could be anywhere) gets his spider senses tingling.

… Cuz they're evil. That's what evil people do. Spiral argument, go!

Can't buy this one. Other corps do no less, sometimes even more evil than Big A. MCT trashes technomancers, for example. S-K is headed by ZOG (How more evil can you get?!). There are bugs in Ares. And still only Aztechnology get the brand on the scale of rulebooks. I think there are more evil aztechs in all books than all other evil guys combuned. And what's more, there's no reason for them to be evil. Why do they want to get CAS and Amazonia? Because they are evil corp. Why they practice Blood Magic? Because they are evil corp! That just can't be! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I can't get the idea behind Essence and Magic correlation. If my Essence drops by a point, I lose a point of Magic, that's easy. I can buy it back, that's easy too. But what about maximums? I read that maximum Magic can't be higher than Essence rating. But it doesn't make sense because by RAW Initiation won't do anything as you can't have more Magic than Essence. Can someone clear this out for me?

Basically your magic can't be higher than Essence + Initiation.
Say you have Magic 6 and Essence 6, later in life you decide to put some few wares on you, diminishing your Magic to 5. You can't raise your Magic back to 6 unless you first initiate and then you may increase your Magic back to 6.
Also, you can't have more Initiations than your Magic.

I've read the summoming/banishing threads and I got a question. If I need to dispatch of a spirit - a watcher or a bound spirit - quietly, so that his conjurer doesn't know that the spirit was killed/banished, what should I do?

Yes, distract the spirit with something. For watchers any shining object might work. For other spirits, it can be tricky or even impossible to distract them from their duty.

And secondly, is there any reason why Aztechnology is evil save for the sake of being evil?

Their corporate masters are involved with the events of the fourth world described in Earthdawn. There are rumours that at least one Horror-corrupted Feathered Serpent is involved with Aztechnology.

[Draco18s]

Just FYI, you can make drakes work.
I had one that was a stealth/infiltrator that worked quite well. The challenge was not building an effective (meta)human character and instead focusing on the attributes that the drake had that made the drake good:

1) Only use Eastern drakes (their hands). They can still use guns in dracoform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
2) Armor, if you've got less of it in drake form than human, you're never going to dragon-out. Do be aware that "Mystic Armor" (innate) and "Mystic Armor" (adept power) are not the same. The former gives you "astral armor" the latter gives you "generic magic armor" (they stack, but not in the WTF awesome way). Work out with your GM how normal armor stacks with hardened armor.
3) Magic, make them a mage or mystic adept (pure adept will only hurt you)
4) SURGE that beastie, find a metagenetic quality that will aid the drake in some fashion (chameleon skin, dermal plating (granite shell?), etc.).
5) Dual-natured only effects their drake form. If you're getting beat up astrally, just change back. Alternatively, you can fight back as a drake using unarmed combat (a skill you should have and specialize (claws|bite)).
6) Get Exotic Weapon (Breath), because you'll want it (who else gets line of sight fireballs as a skill?)

[DamienKnight]

Just FYI, you can make drakes work.
I had one that was a stealth/infiltrator that worked quite well. The challenge was not building an effective (meta)human character and instead focusing on the attributes that the drake had that made the drake good:

1) Only use Eastern drakes (their hands). They can still use guns in dracoform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
2) Armor, if you've got less of it in drake form than human, you're never going to dragon-out. Do be aware that "Mystic Armor" (innate) and "Mystic Armor" (adept power) are not the same. The former gives you "astral armor" the latter gives you "generic magic armor" (they stack, but not in the WTF awesome way). Work out with your GM how normal armor stacks with hardened armor.
3) Magic, make them a mage or mystic adept (pure adept will only hurt you)
4) SURGE that beastie, find a metagenetic quality that will aid the drake in some fashion (chameleon skin, dermal plating (granite shell?), etc.).
5) Dual-natured only effects their drake form. If you're getting beat up astrally, just change back. Alternatively, you can fight back as a drake using unarmed combat (a skill you should have and specialize (claws|bite)).
6) Get Exotic Weapon (Breath), because you'll want it (who else gets line of sight fireballs as a skill?)

Awesome points. I just want to add that drakes can select any element for their breath weapon, and Sonic breath weapon is AMAZING. Target gets no armor, and if you do boxes of damage that equal or exceed their willpower they are paralyzed with the nauseated effect. Also, for a drake that likes to cause mass devastation, BLAST element makes for a Gnarly breath weapon.

You absolutely MUST have either a good armor spell or mystic armor. It stacks great though, and since the drakes mystic armor works on the astral, a projecting drake is fierce in astral combat.

They are not as pimped as some other race choices (like Vampires) but are definitely worth the points. You can make a drake build that is decent, and with the right physad build you can be devastating. Not to mention all the flair of being able to turn into a freaking dragon and eating people.

Also, FLYING. You can fly at twice your run speed. With Celerity (if GM allows) you can be flying very fast. Add a spirit with movement power and you are like a fighter jet with infinite shots of magical breath weapon!

Combining drake with orc or troll builds is great for physical stats. You can be a real killer in melee combat, and huge and intimidating too!

Edit: I almost forgot, you can make a drake Adept and then get the optional metamagic (again, if GM allows) from either Street Magic or Running Wild which allows drakes to learn detection based spells when using dragonspeech. Spells without being a mage, who could ask for more!?

[Draco18s]

Awesome points. I just want to add that drakes can select any element for their breath weapon, and Sonic breath weapon is AMAZING. Target gets no armor, and if you do boxes of damage that equal or exceed their willpower they are paralyzed with the nauseated effect. Also, for a drake that likes to cause mass devastation, BLAST element makes for a Gnarly breath weapon.

As a GM I'd not let a drake get a sonic breath. I'd restrict them to standard elements: fire, acid, ice, electricity. Others would be conditional (smoke, I don't see an issue).
Also remember, it takes karma to change it, it's not free. But it does open the option to have whatever you need for this run (it just costs 3 karma!)
Note: I don't remember the cost listed in that optional rule.

[Neraph]

Sorry I've been gone so long. I was busy.

Am I right assuming that Shadow Spirits and Wild Spirits from Running Wild are considered to be Free Spirits when summoning/binding them?

Yes, and you can only either use the Calling rules from Running Wild or the summoning rules for free spirits from Street Magic (needing their formula and all that), not the actual Summoning Skill.

Are Blood Spirits good for anything save depleting the Drain from Invocation/High Force Spirit? Invocation suggests it should be used on combat spirits, most of them already have Fear and Natural Weapons, Essence Drain is good almost only to sustain itself and losing greater form power almost exclusively means Blood Spirits should be Guardian Spirits.

Invoking is actually an amazing Metamagic to use for any spirit (especially your Free Spirit PC groupmember...). That aside, being able to give a Natural Weapon and Fear to any spirit you want without taking an optional power makes Blood Spirits much more dangerous.

... is there any reason why Aztechnology is evil save for the sake of being evil?

It has to do with their use of Blood Magic - other than that they're only as evil as all the other Megas.

[DamienKnight]

As a GM I'd not let a drake get a sonic breath. I'd restrict them to standard elements: fire, acid, ice, electricity. Others would be conditional (smoke, I don't see an issue).
Also remember, it takes karma to change it, it's not free. But it does open the option to have whatever you need for this run (it just costs 3 karma!)
Note: I don't remember the cost listed in that optional rule.

15 karma to change it. As a GM I would allow sonic breath... its basically a magical shout. Also, I would let characters choose their starting breath... why not?

[Draco18s]

15 karma to change it. As a GM I would allow sonic breath... its basically a magical shout. Also, I would let characters choose their starting breath... why not?

Ah, 15. Expensive to do all the time.

And yeah, it is, but Sonic damage is so broken anyway.

My mage is picking it up next. Flavorname will be "Screech" (he's a burd).

[Aerospider]

4) SURGE that beastie, find a metagenetic quality that will aid the drake in some fashion (chameleon skin, dermal plating (granite shell?), etc.).

You can't surge drakes. You have to choose a standard metatype, a metavariant or, with GM approval a non-metahuman sapient.

[Draco18s]

What, exactly, prevents a drake from taking SURGE Class I?

(For reference, when I did it, I picked up chameleon skin and unusual eyes: drakes, IIRC, already have unusual eyes as far as metahumans are concerned, all I did was make them strikingly purple).

[DamienKnight]

You can't surge drakes. You have to choose a standard metatype, a metavariant or, with GM approval a non-metahuman sapient.

What, exactly, prevents a drake from taking SURGE Class I?

The book specifically says SURGE is not exclusive to metahumans:

Only characters that have bought a metavariant
metatype (pp. 70–72) or the changeling quality (p. 73) may
choose qualities from this section.
[...] It should be noted that SURGE is not an exclusively metahuman
phenomenon.

[Smirnov]

Yes, distract the spirit with something. For watchers any shining object might work. For other spirits, it can be tricky or even impossible to distract them from their duty.

Their corporate masters are involved with the events of the fourth world described in Earthdawn. There are rumours that at least one Horror-corrupted Feathered Serpent is involved with Aztechnology.

As far as I know, that not the whole board. And some of them were eliminated - Darke as part of Harlequins Back, Atzcapotzaico in 2064 and I remember Augmentation mention that two dragons (?) are leaning the house. That leaves only the rumored corrupted dragon and maybe some leftovers. So it's hard to believe that the whole mega would do evil for the sake of evil. I just don't see a reason for Aztechnology to, for example, invade CAS. What's there for them that needs conquest? After all, as any corp, Big A needs client first of all, so that the corp can live long and prosper.

Just FYI, you can make drakes work.
I had one that was a stealth/infiltrator that worked quite well. The challenge was not building an effective (meta)human character and instead focusing on the attributes that the drake had that made the drake good:

Thanks for the points! I figured as much, but it gets the character in rather narrow niche. But that's probably intended.
Btw, would casting Armor on Hardeded Armor make the bonus Armor hardened as well?

Invoking is actually an amazing Metamagic to use for any spirit (especially your Free Spirit PC groupmember...). That aside, being able to give a Natural Weapon and Fear to any spirit you want without taking an optional power makes Blood Spirits much more dangerous.

Can you expand Invoking a little? I know that Invoking is great for combat spirits - they get physical boost. And some greater form power rock, but is there anything I miss?
But Blood Spirits still don't look that terrifying to me. In story texts they are like 'omg! teh blood spirit! we are doomed!', but mechanically I don't see that much of horror. As one russian joke says, 'yes, horror. But not the HORROR! HORROR! HORROR!'

[HunterHerne]

The book specifically says SURGE is not exclusive to metahumans:

It also suggests SURGEing critters to make more interesting challenges that aren't automatically known to well read Players.

Some of the critters are specifically said to be SURGEd forms, like the Demon Rat is to the Devil rat.

[Draco18s]

The book specifically says SURGE is not exclusive to metahumans:

Exactly. Also, even if it was, drakes are sufficiently metahuman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)