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> Are Game AI's getting worse?
Blade
post Aug 12 2011, 07:05 AM
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Really? I haven't seen any RPG IA showing something superior to what there was in Ultima VII, but I haven't played that many recent RPGs.
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Juno
post Aug 29 2011, 11:39 PM
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I think everyone who plays Shadowrun and who's bothered by predictable AI should know about Sleep is Death Its a slice of improv, mixed with the virtual world, though maybe if you've played pen & paper RPGs with virtual desktops you'll be underwhelmed (I haven't, though I've not played SID either).

I know many would consider multi player to be completely tangental to AI, but I think this is far more deserving of gaming news hype than many other supposed AI breakthroughs (Watson on Jeopardy in particular).
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Blade
post Aug 30 2011, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE (Juno @ Aug 30 2011, 01:39 AM) *
I think everyone who plays Shadowrun and who's bothered by predictable AI should know about Sleep is Death Its a slice of improv, mixed with the virtual world, though maybe if you've played pen & paper RPGs with virtual desktops you'll be underwhelmed (I haven't, though I've not played SID either).

There's a huge difference with PnP RPG and SID. In P&P RPG you interact directly with a GM to interact indirectly with a world. In SID you interact directly with the world to interact with the GM. You feel much more like you're on your own. It's an interesting experience.

QUOTE
I know many would consider multi player to be completely tangental to AI, but I think this is far more deserving of gaming news hype than many other supposed AI breakthroughs (Watson on Jeopardy in particular).

It has little to do with AI. Something that would have been interesting would have been to have an AI learn from the games people played so that it could be able to GM game on its own. IIRC some people are working on that concept.
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Stahlseele
post Aug 30 2011, 12:32 PM
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The AI in Deus Ex 3 sucks . .
You shoot one guy in the head, where you can't be seen but the dead body can be seen . .
Then you don't change your aiming point at all and seconds later, the next head pops under your cross hair.
Rinse and repeat untill the enemies forces are depleted . .
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hermit
post Aug 30 2011, 03:03 PM
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Video games in general are becoming easier and going for nstant gratification. Probably not least because that's been pioneered by Blizzard's WoW.

And the AI in DX3 reminds me a lot of the AI from Metal Gear Solid. So yes, the guards indeed are stupid (Example: Me and gangers are shooting it out, the gangers are on red alert. I shoot all but one, who persistently is behind a cover I have a hard time getting to. Some time passes between him taking potshots and me trying to maneuver someplace where I can pick him off, and he goes to yellow alert, leaves cover, stretches and says "He's run off, we really kicked his ass." He says amid 7 dead buddies. With me aiming at him. Yeeeeeaaaaaah.)
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Wounded Ronin
post Aug 30 2011, 07:11 PM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Aug 30 2011, 08:32 AM) *
The AI in Deus Ex 3 sucks . .
You shoot one guy in the head, where you can't be seen but the dead body can be seen . .
Then you don't change your aiming point at all and seconds later, the next head pops under your cross hair.
Rinse and repeat untill the enemies forces are depleted . .


Are you joking? That has happened in real life. In "We Were Soldiers Once, And Young" one guy kills several North Vietnamese with headshots like that. At first he thought he missed but actually it was three guys who sequentially came and did the exact same thing and got BOOM HEADSHOT.

Realistic AI doesn't necessarily mean genius AI. In chaotic violent situations people often do less than ideal things.
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CanRay
post Aug 30 2011, 07:24 PM
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Well, don't snipers move from a position after they've taken their shot?

Or am I thinking Sgt. Johnson and his Laser Eyes?
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 30 2011, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Aug 30 2011, 12:03 PM) *
Video games in general are becoming easier and going for nstant gratification. Probably not least because that's been pioneered by Blizzard's WoW.


Yeah...
videogames should be designed back to the difficult level of nintendo hard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)
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hermit
post Aug 30 2011, 09:14 PM
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Axelay. Hard. Playthrough. Only R-Type 3 was harder.

QUOTE
Well, don't snipers move from a position after they've taken their shot?

Dedicated snipers yes, marksmen or GIs with a scope maybe not. At least back then, in the days of a conscript army.
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CanRay
post Aug 30 2011, 11:03 PM
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Ah, right. Designated Marksman. My bad.
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Adarael
post Aug 30 2011, 11:43 PM
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I think it is extremly unwise to confuse difficulty for quality of AI. "Nintendo hard" games weren't hard because of great AI, they were hard because - as people have mentioned - the game cheated more outrageously, or the games required increasing levels of precision on the player's part.

Some of the more egregious cheating I can think of include insta-charge moves in Street Fighter II, and in Soul Calibur (or maybe it was SCII) the computer reads your controller input and techs out of attacks, even when in positions/moves that you normally can't tech in.

AI has gotten progressively better, but it cheats less. And in earlier games, well-hidden cheating was often mistaken for intelligence.
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CanRay
post Aug 31 2011, 02:56 AM
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The Computer is a cheating bastard. And you smile when you don't tell Your Friend And Mine The Comptuer that, otherwise you'll be summarily executed for treason.
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hermit
post Aug 31 2011, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE
I think it is extremly unwise to confuse difficulty for quality of AI. "Nintendo hard" games weren't hard because of great AI, they were hard because - as people have mentioned - the game cheated more outrageously, or the games required increasing levels of precision on the player's part.

Or having neither a health bar - first hit will kill (wel, usually you had three lives, so were able to 'soak' three hits) and no save function in-game. No regenerating health like in ever modern shooter out there, no shield or anything. Turn-based combat bosses that didn't pull any punch (if you want some truely outrageously frustrating boss fights, try the SNES Lufia game). Of course, the mechanics of a 3D shooter and a side-scroller are very different.

QUOTE
AI has gotten progressively better, but it cheats less. And in earlier games, well-hidden cheating was often mistaken for intelligence.

Very true for strategy games (like Civ I through III), though there, lots of cheating still is going on. But of course, well-timed cheating (or, in case of the original Mortal Kombat, blatantly obvious) is the way to go with a shoestring machine like a 16 bit console running on an Apple II equivalent chip.
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X-Kalibur
post Aug 31 2011, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Aug 30 2011, 12:23 PM) *
Yeah...
videogames should be designed back to the difficult level of nintendo hard (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)


Demon's Souls. Alternately, wait until October 4th for Dark Souls.

The former is actually hard in the traditional NES style. It requires memorization of patterns and levels for you to be successful, and if you die, you lose all your unspent souls (used as money AND for levelling) unless you can get back to the spot you died at and reclaim them, without dying again, and everything has respawned, and you're back at the beginning.

I love that game.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Aug 31 2011, 08:16 PM
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Yes...
Demon's Souls, that game is truly Nintendo Hard.
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Adarael
post Aug 31 2011, 08:24 PM
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I think one of the more interesting behaviors I've noticed in strategy & electronic boardgames is that in some games, lower difficulty equates a higher frequency of the computer players making utterly bone-headed moves. Carcassone from XBLA is like this - the lower the difficulty, the more often I'll notice the computer placing tiles in a fashion that's not just a bad idea, but actively gives me an advantage. Civilization Revolutions is like that as well - although that game is of the "cheats outrageously and blatantly" variety as well.

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Wounded Ronin
post Sep 1 2011, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Aug 30 2011, 07:43 PM) *
I think it is extremly unwise to confuse difficulty for quality of AI. "Nintendo hard" games weren't hard because of great AI, they were hard because - as people have mentioned - the game cheated more outrageously, or the games required increasing levels of precision on the player's part.

Some of the more egregious cheating I can think of include insta-charge moves in Street Fighter II, and in Soul Calibur (or maybe it was SCII) the computer reads your controller input and techs out of attacks, even when in positions/moves that you normally can't tech in.

AI has gotten progressively better, but it cheats less. And in earlier games, well-hidden cheating was often mistaken for intelligence.


I need to see if the John Mullins interviews for Soldier of Fortune 2 are still online or not. Basically Mullins is a Vietnam vet who was the realism consultant for SoF2. In an interview someone asked him if improved realism re AI would make games harder in the future, and Mullins said something like, "I don't see why that would make games harder, because killing people is the easiest thing in the world."
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SleepMethod
post Sep 5 2011, 12:20 PM
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According to a few interiviews I've read the advancement of AI is going to be the next big thing in gaming as graphics seem to have pleatued somewhat.

Also one of the problems with programming for AI is that it's only budgeted a certain number of CPU cycles to do what it needs to do between frame rendering, usually between 10 - 15% with a good chuck of that dedicated to checking line of sight for the AI's, aparently the decision tree once that's determined is relatively easy to dictate
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Wounded Ronin
post Sep 5 2011, 03:20 PM
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I think you could make a pretty badass role playing game if you came up with an AI that could react realistically to violence.
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Tanegar
post Sep 5 2011, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 5 2011, 10:20 AM) *
I think you could make a pretty badass role playing game if you came up with an AI that could react realistically to violence.

For what value of "realism?" Running and screaming is realistic if the person is an untrained civilian, and AI can do that already.
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Critias
post Sep 5 2011, 05:40 PM
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And many already do.
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Wounded Ronin
post Sep 5 2011, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Sep 5 2011, 11:14 AM) *
For what value of "realism?" Running and screaming is realistic if the person is an untrained civilian, and AI can do that already.


Well I was thinking more along the lines of unpredictability. Like, some people will do that, but you never know. Maybe one unpredictably tries to tackle the shooter, or something like that.

I attended a simunitions training in Henderson, NV, and in the context of that training, given the mentality of the participants, when we were doing active shooter scenarios, people tended to pile on the active shooter, even at risk of being lit up with sims. So you never know.

That's why SWAT zipties everyone. Because of unpredictability.
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Critias
post Sep 5 2011, 06:32 PM
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Some do. GTA IV, for instance, has most people cowering, screaming, and running away when a firefight breaks out -- but in certain neighborhoods, instead, an assortment of 'bangers (and/or white-color CCW-looking types) will bust out pistols and start snapping shots at you. Likewise, if fisticuffs ensue when you're walking down the street and punch someone. Some folks will run away, some will square off and start swinging, some will brawl for a few swings and then break and run...

Some games already have this sort of thing built in, inasmuch as a video game can.
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Tanegar
post Sep 5 2011, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 5 2011, 02:17 PM) *
Well I was thinking more along the lines of unpredictability. Like, some people will do that, but you never know. Maybe one unpredictably tries to tackle the shooter, or something like that.

I attended a simunitions training in Henderson, NV, and in the context of that training, given the mentality of the participants, when we were doing active shooter scenarios, people tended to pile on the active shooter, even at risk of being lit up with sims. So you never know.

That's why SWAT zipties everyone. Because of unpredictability.

That's not AI, that's just a random number generator. Roll 1d10. 1-5, NPC cowers ineffectually, retaining just enough self-possession to look for a hiding place. 6-8, NPC flees. 9, NPC goes berserk, attacking without regard for personal safety. 10, NPC is combat-trained and attacks accordingly, using terrain to own advantage, etc. Objective achieved.
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CanRay
post Sep 5 2011, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Sep 5 2011, 01:17 PM) *
That's why SWAT zipties everyone. Because of unpredictability.
Zipties are cheap, hospital time is expensive.

QUOTE (Critias @ Sep 5 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Some do. GTA IV, for instance, has most people cowering, screaming, and running away when a firefight breaks out -- but in certain neighborhoods, instead, an assortment of 'bangers (and/or white-color CCW-looking types) will bust out pistols and start snapping shots at you. Likewise, if fisticuffs ensue when you're walking down the street and punch someone. Some folks will run away, some will square off and start swinging, some will brawl for a few swings and then break and run...

Some games already have this sort of thing built in, inasmuch as a video game can.
Gives a good reason not to start random s*** in certain parts of the city.
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