[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's exactly what I would take as RAI but there are at least two assumptions involved and the result is, IMO, substandard. Choice of Force becomes either Magic or Magic x 2 - all other values are needless since Force determines the maximum that may be healed by hits. Healing a team mate near death now becomes a tricky choice, given the drain could easily be as much as twice what is healed. It's also at variance with every other spell in that nowhere else is drain subject to the working conditions rather than the amount of mana being called upon.

Maybe, but it does not bother me, or our table, in the least. Healing someone from 4 Overflow should not be something that is easy or painless for the caster. It does make a difference in the end, because you have to be careful of the drain involved. The Potential Drain is the more important factor for healing style spells, not the number of boxes healed.

No worries though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Glyph]

That's exactly what I would take as RAI but there are at least two assumptions involved and the result is, IMO, substandard. Choice of Force becomes either Magic or Magic x 2 - all other values are needless since Force determines the maximum that may be healed by hits. Healing a team mate near death now becomes a tricky choice, given the drain could easily be as much as twice what is healed. It's also at variance with every other spell in that nowhere else is drain subject to the working conditions rather than the amount of mana being called upon.

Not quite true. The antidote and cure disease spell both have Drain based on the DV of the toxin or disease. I had assumed the DV-2 was referring to the boxes healed, myself, but when I read closer, I saw that the other interpretation was more in line with how the other two spells calculated Drain. I don't like it, though, for similar reasons to the ones you stated. Plus, I think a mage should have the option to heal someone just a little bit, for lower Drain, if they choose to do so. Oh well, I guess it's another reason to have someone use first aid on a character before casting heal on them.

[HunterHerne]

Not quite true. The antidote and cure disease spell both have Drain based on the DV of the toxin or disease. I had assumed the DV-2 was referring to the boxes healed, myself, but when I read closer, I saw that the other interpretation was more in line with how the other two spells calculated Drain. I don't like it, though, for similar reasons to the ones you stated. Plus, I think a mage should have the option to heal someone just a little bit, for lower Drain, if they choose to do so. Oh well, I guess it's another reason to have someone use first aid on a character before casting heal on them.

That is so. Personally, I like it when massive damage can't be automatically healed to a degree, it adds grit and consequences. But, then, I might take the gritty factor too far.

[Irion]

Maybe, but it does not bother me, or our table, in the least. Healing someone from 4 Overflow should not be something that is easy or painless for the caster. It does make a difference in the end, because you have to be careful of the drain involved. The Potential Drain is the more important factor for healing style spells, not the number of boxes healed.

No worries though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, that would be around 12-16 points of stun damage. (To overcast healing is quite useless if you have at least magic 4 or 5. Because to really get more hits you would need edge anyway...)

[Dakka Dakka]

Choice of Force becomes either Magic or Magic x 2 - all other values are needless since Force determines the maximum that may be healed by hits.

When have you last seen Increase Reflexes cast at a Force other than 4, except for Edge Shenanigans? I'm sure there are other spells that the most sense at certain Force levels.

[Glyph]

When have you last seen Increase Reflexes cast at a Force other than 4, except for Edge Shenanigans? I'm sure there are other spells that the most sense at certain Force levels.

Yeah, but that Force: 4 spell has higher Drain, which is how spells should work.

He was saying that if someone has 8 points of damage, then if your Magic is 5, and you are not going to overcast, there is no point in casting it at, say, Force: 3, since it will have the exact same Drain as casting it at Force: 5, and the only difference will be that your successes will be capped at 3 instead of 5. I agree with him - it is jarring, to have a spell where the Drain doesn't depend on the Force of the spell itself, but other factors.

[HunterHerne]

Yeah, but that Force: 4 spell has higher Drain, which is how spells should work.

He was saying that if someone has 8 points of damage, then if your Magic is 5, and you are not going to overcast, there is no point in casting it at, say, Force: 3, since it will have the exact same Drain as casting it at Force: 5, and the only difference will be that your successes will be capped at 3 instead of 5. I agree with him - it is jarring, to have a spell where the Drain doesn't depend on the Force of the spell itself, but other factors.

If it bothers you, House rule it. I've already mentioned how I change it to fit the froce rules for other spells, and the other restorative healing spells follow suit. Yes, it means the spells in my version can be used more often, but it also means they can't be used on higher outliers (a magic 4 character can't stabilize someone who has 9 overflow)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I think the problem with Heal is they just took the old SR3 mechanic (soak 1/2F or so with a damage code of the damage of the target) and tried to translate it. And that just doesn't work too well. In SR3 resisting 3D was definitely doable. 8-12 Stun are a totally different matter, IMHO, and will likely knock you out. Even in SR3 it was wiser to use First Aid first, but that was mainly a result of the way that worked - it removed an entire damage level.

So I'm not sure what's the best solution, but I would go back to halfing the drain, probably still based on DV. 1/2 DV or so. If that seems too easy, make it 1/2DV +1.

[Irion]

Oh and there is an other interpretation too.
You may treat any damage sustained from a different source alone...
Sorry, to say that, but in my opinion the healing rules in general are not that good.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Oh and there is an other interpretation too.
You may treat any damage sustained from a different source alone...
Sorry, to say that, but in my opinion the healing rules in general are not that good.

Yes, that was also done in SR3 sometimes.

In SR3, there was the tremendous quick-healing you could do with first-aid and magic paired, and then the rest of the healing process took for fricken ever. NOW I'm not sure, it seems quick healing is harder (threshold for first-aid, and somehow weaker heal spell), but natural healing was supposed to be quicker. I haven't actually ever read those rules, because we always just did downtime healing, and there was always enough time.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, that was also done in SR3 sometimes.

In SR3, there was the tremendous quick-healing you could do with first-aid and magic paired, and then the rest of the healing process took for fricken ever. NOW I'm not sure, it seems quick healing is harder (threshold for first-aid, and somehow weaker heal spell), but natural healing was supposed to be quicker. I haven't actually ever read those rules, because we always just did downtime healing, and there was always enough time.

Healing Naturally is horrendously fast. I have seen Trolls go from 5 Over flow (13 Boxes of Normal Damage, and 5 Overflow) to fully healed in 3 days or less, Naturally. Healing that would take a normal Human in todays world Months to occur, and require Therapy for full functionality a Shadowrun character can naturally heal up in less than 5 days. Combine that with the Magical Healing and First Aid that goes on and you can go from Death's Door to Fully Functional in a Day or two, Tops.

[HunterHerne]

Healing Naturally is horrendously fast. I have seen Trolls go from 5 Over flow (13 Boxes of Normal Damage, and 5 Overflow) to fully healed in 3 days or less, Naturally. Healing that would take a normal Human in todays world Months to occur, and require Therapy for full functionality a Shadowrun character can naturally heal up in less than 5 days. Combine that with the Magical Healing and First Aid that goes on and you can go from Death's Door to Fully Functional in a Day or two, Tops.

Yeah, definitely not something I agree with. Which is why I use both slower healing options; Body-wounds for physical damage; Body/Willpower-wounds for stun. It takes that Troll from 3 days without help, and assuming 10 body, will make him wait 3 days to wake up (on average).

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Healing Naturally is horrendously fast. I have seen Trolls go from 5 Over flow (13 Boxes of Normal Damage, and 5 Overflow) to fully healed in 3 days or less, Naturally. Healing that would take a normal Human in todays world Months to occur, and require Therapy for full functionality a Shadowrun character can naturally heal up in less than 5 days. Combine that with the Magical Healing and First Aid that goes on and you can go from Death's Door to Fully Functional in a Day or two, Tops.

I'm assuming that incorporates mods for hosptital care? Or is that just baseline?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm assuming that incorporates mods for hosptital care? Or is that just baseline?

Straight Baseline...
With a High Lifestyle, and decent Conditions...

[Dakka Dakka]

I'm assuming that incorporates mods for hosptital care?

By RAW probably not.

[HunterHerne]

By RAW probably not.

No, it wouldn't. By RAW, the Troll would roll either 18 or 20 dice, depending on body 9 or 10. With 18 dice, he likely gets about 6 hits each roll, which would heal all 18 damage in three days.

[Bigity]

IIRC there is an optional rule to slow down healing, and I believe it mentions healing in SR4 was designed to be faster than older versions.

[Mardrax]

Applied use of Medicine skill can make it even faster.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Applied use of Medicine skill can make it even faster.

Oh Yes... Applied Medicine, or First Aid, creates situations in which Healing is about as good as Regeneration.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

No, it wouldn't. By RAW, the Troll would roll either 18 or 20 dice, depending on body 9 or 10. With 18 dice, he likely gets about 6 hits each roll, which would heal all 18 damage in three days.

Hmmm... that sure is fast. BUT quite a few runners I know do not in fact have a high lifestyle, and would at least have to pay a fair amount of money to improve their living conditions for a short while.

It's still fast enough to make injuries basically a non-issue unless you're sitting in the muck somewhere with no way to improve your conditions. Which... would make for a bit of good drama.

The trouble is: Slowing down baseline healing will necessarily also slow down healing under poor conditions, which you might also want to be finite in time scale. (A short stint with one runner incapacitated in hostile territory might be fun, but having to sit out three months of healing while under fire and nowhere to run will invariably be boring to the player of the incapacitated guy.)

[Aerospider]

Oh Yes... Applied Medicine, or First Aid, creates situations in which Healing is about as good as Regeneration.

Don't forget mystic healing. I forget whether or not it's incompatible with other bonuses, but I do seem to recall it can be a nice little extra boost to the healing DP.

[Mardrax]

Hmmm... that sure is fast. BUT quite a few runners I know do not in fact have a high lifestyle, and would at least have to pay a fair amount of money to improve their living conditions for a short while.

It's still fast enough to make injuries basically a non-issue unless you're sitting in the muck somewhere with no way to improve your conditions. Which... would make for a bit of good drama.

Healing in squalid conditions: another reason for adepts to take up Heightened Concentration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Hmmm... that sure is fast. BUT quite a few runners I know do not in fact have a high lifestyle, and would at least have to pay a fair amount of money to improve their living conditions for a short while.

It's still fast enough to make injuries basically a non-issue unless you're sitting in the muck somewhere with no way to improve your conditions. Which... would make for a bit of good drama.

The trouble is: Slowing down baseline healing will necessarily also slow down healing under poor conditions, which you might also want to be finite in time scale. (A short stint with one runner incapacitated in hostile territory might be fun, but having to sit out three months of healing while under fire and nowhere to run will invariably be boring to the player of the incapacitated guy.)

That's only baseline. No penalties or bonuses for conditions or lifestyles. I prefer grittier, and use the rules I mentioned above. Even in average conditons (not good or bad) the Troll would be unconscious for 3 days on average, and most others would need help to get anywhere on the healing.

[Aerospider]

The serious wounds and heavy damage rules can slow things down a bit. As and when they apply there are a fair few ways to make the player feel the hurt that little bit more. For example, I once had a party of 8 foolishly send the two dwarfs to take care of a cybertooth tiger on their own and one of them was a very squishy TM. In short order they were both out of it, one with brain damage (the TM) and the other with a couple of broken ribs. I ruled that the TM would suffer the Mental Handicap quality until he could source some gene therapy (or perhaps common or garden neurosurgery) whilst the other guy would be permamently saddled with six boxes of damage until he got some professional treatment. It might seem harsh, but lessons must be learned in my game!

[HunterHerne]

The serious wounds and heavy damage rules can slow things down a bit. As and when they apply there are a fair few ways to make the player feel the hurt that little bit more. For example, I once had a party of 8 foolishly send the two dwarfs to take care of a cybertooth tiger on their own and one of them was a very squishy TM. In short order they were both out of it, one with brain damage (the TM) and the other with a couple of broken ribs. I ruled that the TM would suffer the Mental Handicap quality until he could source some gene therapy (or perhaps common or garden neurosurgery) whilst the other guy would be permamently saddled with six boxes of damage until he got some professional treatment. It might seem harsh, but lessons must be learned in my game!

I completely agree. I use the sever damage rules as well, but the only times they came up were for a PC's broken ribs and internal bleeding, for an NPC getting a brain hemhorage after someone stun bolted him, and another NPC going into shock and soon dying after someone decided to try non-lethal with 14+ dice pool and Ex-Ex ammo.