[X] My Assistant

[Warlordtheft]

Thank you for serving but I think that experience is going to work against you here for a simple reason:
The USMC is not (I hope) a profit-maximizing corporation.
A Megacorp is. They're going to minimize costs wherever they can, even if it leads to increased deaths at one of their facilities. The HRT will only get as much funding as the corp would lose from shadowruns if they downgraded the HRT to have weaker gear/ware. I'm not discussing a corp having or not having an HRT. I'm discussing how effective that HRT team is going to be given certain cost restraints. Let me put this in more concrete terms.

Let's presume the average SR has 3 IP. A corp can easily afford to upgrade all their HRT teams from Wired Reflexes II to Wired Reflexes III, which will give the HRT a significant advantage over the shadowrunners. However, since you probably need alphaware due to essence restrictions, there's an increased cost of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 168,000 per person to upgrade the team from Wired Reflexes II to Alphaware Wired Reflexes III. Over 30 people (2 HRTs), that's a bit over 5 million nuyen. Will that increased capability save the megacorp an extra five million nuyen? If not, the HRT will not get it.

In business terms, it's actually worse than that. If the corp could reinvest that 5 million nuyen into another factory, then for the HRT to get those Alphaware Wired Reflexes III, they need to save the corp an additional 5 million nuyen over what they would have saved the corp if they only had Wired Reflexes II, plus whatever profits that potential factory would have made.

I'm adding my $0.02. You'd think that. But lets suppose the potential profit for all the research in the response time area? If it is in the billions of nuyen (and for megacorps they are looking at profits in the billions), then the highly trained force costing 50 million would not be too far fetched. Also, some of those costs are sunk costs not related to ongoing expenses. And they are going to be "the best of the best of the best". The corp is not going to give alphaware grade wired reflexes III to some grunt strait out of boot camp. He's going to give it to the grunt who has had a few scrapes, is motivated to protect mother corp, and has the aptitude for this kind of work. Also there is PR angle to this and profits from Desert Wars to think about!

Yea if it is a small project worth only a couple million to the corp---they are probably going to be cheap on the security.

[HunterHerne]

Yea if it is a small project worth only a couple million to the corp---they are probably going to be cheap on the security.

But even so, if that small project is in the area the HTRT is designated to respond in, then a few men may get allocated to it. Certainly not the full squad, just in case something else happens, but 3-4 men to scout and take down a small group, if possible, is not a bad investment.

The thing is, HTRT might be a multi million nuyen investment. But they likely protect several reasearch facilities in a given area that have hundred million, or multi-billion forecasts.

[suoq]

The thing is, HTRT might be a multi million nuyen investment. But they likely protect several reasearch facilities in a given area that have hundred million, or multi-billion forecasts.

This may be a weakness of the HTRT team that the shadowrunners can exploit.
It may also be a weakness of the HTRT team that some other team of runners are using the shadowrunners to exploit.

[HunterHerne]

This may be a weakness of the HTRT team that the shadowrunners can exploit.
It may also be a weakness of the HTRT team that some other team of runners are using the shadowrunners to exploit.

Which is exactly what I was thinking as I wrote it.

[MikeKozar]

Spirit HRT

All this assumes that the corp goes for a strictly physical response. I like the idea of the cybersam team hitting the PCs, I think doing anything else is less fun, but consider the astral angle. If I were going for a TPK, I would just have the corp page every contracted wagemage in North America and have them send the biggest spirit they can summon on short notice. If we give them a full ten rounds to do the summoning, instruct the spirit, and have the spirit travel astrally to the facility, we're looking at something like 30 seconds from the alarm going off to a nightmare. Spirits are hard to kill, fast to arrive, eminently expendable and can be replaced in under a minute, not to mention bringing things like binding, fear, and elemental attack. Consider that the corp is probably has enough mages on staff that if just half of them pause for a minute and summon, you would see a *lot* of spirits, and no additional cost for running a HRT.

I'm not sure how other GMs handle spirits, but I pretty much have to pretend they don't exist. From a strategic POV they look a lot like God-mode. Vengeful, Old Testament God-mode.

[Warlordtheft]

Thing to remember about spirits is that the players are going to go through stick and shock like crazy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . But for the most part, the corp could be sending force 4 spirits ad nauseum. Force 5 and 6 might happen on occasion, and above that only rarely. THe main reason is, most mages are probably a 4 in the magic attribute and they aren't going to risk that asset. Also, spirits being summoned in othe parts of the continent could prove problematic. They might run into something and it would probably take something along the lines of bug city to bring out that kind of response.

[Traul]

Spirit HRT

All this assumes that the corp goes for a strictly physical response. I like the idea of the cybersam team hitting the PCs, I think doing anything else is less fun, but consider the astral angle. If I were going for a TPK, I would just have the corp page every contracted wagemage in North America and have them send the biggest spirit they can summon on short notice. If we give them a full ten rounds to do the summoning, instruct the spirit, and have the spirit travel astrally to the facility, we're looking at something like 30 seconds from the alarm going off to a nightmare. Spirits are hard to kill, fast to arrive, eminently expendable and can be replaced in under a minute, not to mention bringing things like binding, fear, and elemental attack. Consider that the corp is probably has enough mages on staff that if just half of them pause for a minute and summon, you would see a *lot* of spirits, and no additional cost for running a HRT.

I'm not sure how other GMs handle spirits, but I pretty much have to pretend they don't exist. From a strategic POV they look a lot like God-mode. Vengeful, Old Testament God-mode.

How do you give them the address? There is no Google map in the Astral.

[HunterHerne]

I assume there is going to be at least one mage connected to the HTRT, that has at least sent a spirit to scout and maybe try softening up the team, followed very closely by scout drones. The actual team only makes a move to intercept the intruders once the Mage and rigger check in, whether the fight is continuing, or the drones and spirit(s) are disposed of.

Some corps might have a mage or two on the HTRT on a permanent basis, most likely Aztechnology, Wuxing and S-K. Others might rotate a mage into the squads, similar to how a wage-mage might have to do on-site security once in a while. MCT, I doubt would have a mage on any HTRT, as they are too valuable, and MCT has a penchant for mechanical security, especially Drones. But back them up with a spirit, and they can be a force to be reconed with, without putting a mage in immediate danger.

[MikeKozar]

Thing to remember about spirits is that the players are going to go through stick and shock like crazy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . But for the most part, the corp could be sending force 4 spirits ad nauseum. Force 5 and 6 might happen on occasion, and above that only rarely. THe main reason is, most mages are probably a 4 in the magic attribute and they aren't going to risk that asset. Also, spirits being summoned in othe parts of the continent could prove problematic. They might run into something and it would probably take something along the lines of bug city to bring out that kind of response.

I don't see why a Wuxing research team in New York couldn't pop a few spirits and have them fly to Seattle; the writeup on astral travel talks about going around the world fairly easily, so why not just fly above any obstructions? Why couldn't they do it? (Honest question, I feel like I missed your point.)

How do you give them the address? There is no Google map in the Astral.

Details that could be easily sorted out by a sophisticated command and control center - assuming the mages are getting orders via AR, whatever info would be required to communicate location could be sent, whether a simulated flight video that the mage could thought-send, or specific directions like "1235.21 miles from this point at exactly 275.1432`, talk to the man named Captain Venkman and follow his orders as you would mine."


Honestly, I want this plan to be impossible, but I worry that spirits per RAW are too badly unbalanced to handwave. For me, the idea that a military response force *wouldn't* be entirely combat spirits strains belief.

[Warlordtheft]

Cause they might be stopped at the Suiox or Salish border and just zotted for target practice if detected. The fact is there is no IFF in the astral, and more than likely the sovereign nations would object to such intrusions and blast them out of the astral sky. Also if traced back to Wuxing, it might cause wuxing some embarassment in terms of PR as to why they needed 100 spirits in seattle. Explaining that a research facility was under attack by terrorists would mean that the reasearch facility existed that contained something valuable enough to protect in such a manner.

I agree the response could be massive depending on the corp, but for the most part game wise I could see them sending a dozen or so spirits to defend the facilility pretty easily. Also I agree that this does get into the "do I want a TPK?" territory pretty quickly.

[Mardrax]

Cause they might be stopped at the Suiox or Salish border and just zotted for target practice if detected.

This is why there's such a thing as metaplanar shortcuts.

[toturi]

This is why there's such a thing as metaplanar shortcuts.

IIRC, metaplanar shortcuts are quite limited. Can the spirit shortcut to a location it's never been to before? Or do all summoned spirits get shown around all the sites they could be deployed to beforehand? "Hey, boss, I'm taking my posse for the orientation flight. Give Seattle a call, I got a headache smacking my head on a ward the last time!"

One problem I can foresee with giving highly specific instructions to a spirit is that it needs to be intelligent enough to comprehend and execute and whether the spirit was well treated/abused.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

I thought street magic cleared that one up? Isnt it specifically mentioned that the spirit may only shortcut to places that it or its summoner has specifically been?

[Mardrax]

One problem I can foresee with giving highly specific instructions to a spirit is that it needs to be intelligent enough to comprehend and execute and whether the spirit was well treated/abused.

Spirits have F worth of mental stats. They're more intelligent than the average human.
Also, as long as they have tasks remaining, they're going to do whatever you tell them, no questions asked. Even if you tell them to sit still while mister Blood spirit devours their karma.

The question is of course wether you told it what you want specifically enough. The badly treated ones might just take a different but equally valid interpretation of your order.

I thought street magic cleared that one up? Isnt it specifically mentioned that the spirit may only shortcut to places that it or its summoner has specifically been?

So every summoner in the region has a trip around a number of key locations, or even all facilities in the region, or country, on being hired.
Low investment, high return on added safety.

[HunterHerne]

Spirits have F worth of mental stats. They're more intelligent than the average human.
Also, as long as they have tasks remaining, they're going to do whatever you tell them, no questions asked. Even if you tell them to sit still while mister Blood spirit devours their karma.

The question is of course wether you told it what you want specifically enough. The badly treated ones might just take a different but equally valid interpretation of your order.

Yeah... most summoned spirits don't have much karma (especially if you're using BP character gen), and even if they did, forcing a spirit to take that would be a bad idea, if I were GMing. Pretty much every spirit you summon afterwards is going to be a nuisance, using edge to resist, and forcing you to use more tasks for things that normally wouldn't require it.

[Mardrax]

Yeah... most summoned spirits don't have much karma (especially if you're using BP character gen), and even if they did, forcing a spirit to take that would be a bad idea, if I were GMing. Pretty much every spirit you summon afterwards is going to be a nuisance, using edge to resist, and forcing you to use more tasks for things that normally wouldn't require it.

No one said it was smart.
Then again, that Blood shaman might just be using other spirits to feed his pet Barney, purple eater of souls, and ally spirit.
Also, what does your form of chargen have to do with how much karma spirits you pull from their homeplane have? 0_o

Even though mages tend to treat them like nameless fodder, spirits have lives too. Do stuff to earn karma, make a pact here or there to earn some. All to make them grow from tiny F1 spirits to those mighty F8s that have people cry wolf at possession spirits. There's no reason why they'd be more or less likely to have any than your average person.

[HunterHerne]

No one said it was smart.
Then again, that Blood shaman might just be using other spirits to feed his pet Barney, purple eater of souls, and ally spirit.
Also, what does your form of chargen have to do with how much karma spirits you pull from their homeplane have? 0_o

Even though mages tend to treat them like nameless fodder, spirits have lives too. Do stuff to earn karma, make a pact here or there to earn some. All to make them grow from tiny F1 spirits to those mighty F8s that have people cry wolf at possession spirits. There's no reason why they'd be more or less likely to have any than your average person.

Except that in Street Magic, it says free spirits (and hence I'd have to assume most spirits on their home plane) can't earn karma, and must either get it gifted from others, or take it (such as the afore mentioned blood spirit). The build point thing was just my personal thing. I tend to create a lot of NPC character sheets, from people the current team may meet, to people that only appear on news feeds, including free spirits. Not necessarily important to most people.

[toturi]

Spirits have F worth of mental stats. They're more intelligent than the average human.
Also, as long as they have tasks remaining, they're going to do whatever you tell them, no questions asked.

I have no doubt that the higher Force spirits are likely to be smarter than the average human, but just because the spirit is smarter doesn't mean that it is any more able to successfully execute its orders. As long as the spirits have tasks remaining, the spirits will do as they are instructed, unless the order is something that they are unable to comply with - not within their capability to.

[onlyghostdancesw...]

So every summoner in the region has a trip around a number of key locations, or even all facilities in the region, or country, on being hired.
Low investment, high return on added safety.

Right so joe schmoe wage mage has the clearance to see the nice new deltaware-cyborg facility? Opening up that kind of access allows for even MOOORE exploitation.

I wouldnt think this would be relevant for the high-sec, no-one knows they exist places.

[PoliteMan]

Quick question (I don't usually play mages):

Presumably this facility is going to be heavily warded. I'm not sure exactly how much control the creators have over who can pass through their wards, p.194 from SRA4 makes it seem like even the mages own spirits couldn't automatically pass through, but it seems likely that series of wards that would allow dozens of spirits from who knows how many different traditions to pass through is either impossible or a gigantic security hole. And more mundane security features like biofiber won't allow them in at all.

I'm not big on magic but it seems like a spirit HRT team would require the facility to basically shut down their magical security just to let them in.

[PoliteMan]

I am big on double-posting though.

[Aku]

I thought whoever created the ward could allow permissions to whoever they wanted

[toturi]

I thought whoever created the ward could allow permissions to whoever they wanted

Yes, the creator of the ward can allow whoever they wish to pass through. If he knew to allow them to pass through.

[HunterHerne]

Yes, the creator of the ward can allow whoever they wish to pass through. If he knew to allow them to pass through.

Which I would assume would only be on-site paranimals, and maybe the astral sig of the corps local mages, including HTRT linked ones.

[PoliteMan]

Well, you could extend it to a variety of corp mages at different locations, which would give you an effective spirit HRT team. However, it seems like it would also make all your facilities vulnerable to someone with Flexible Signature. Whether the benefits outweigh the costs, *shrug*