[X] My Assistant

[Aku]

This is one splace SR4/a fell flat, compared to 3. in 3, it explicitly said if you summon 3 of the same type of spirits, you get bob, jane, and sue (spirit threesome!). Next time, if you summon only 2 spirits, you get bob and jane (in that order), if on yet another occassion, you summon 4, you get bob, jane, sue, and a spirit to be named at that time, SR$/a has no such stipulation, so we dont really know if we get the same or different spirits every time we summon, afaik

[HunterHerne]

This is one splace SR4/a fell flat, compared to 3. in 3, it explicitly said if you summon 3 of the same type of spirits, you get bob, jane, and sue (spirit threesome!). Next time, if you summon only 2 spirits, you get bob and jane (in that order), if on yet another occassion, you summon 4, you get bob, jane, sue, and a spirit to be named at that time, SR$/a has no such stipulation, so we dont really know if we get the same or different spirits every time we summon, afaik

I've just assumed it to be a random spirit you summon. One that likely doesn't know what happened before. Unless it's bound, then I encourage players to give them a name (and will name NPC mage bound spirits)

[Warlordtheft]

Which I would assume would only be on-site paranimals, and maybe the astral sig of the corps local mages, including HTRT linked ones.

And the spirits of any Mages on the HTRT nearby. This is probably the real reason you wouldn't get agent smith'd by the spirits of the corps. They figure all the HTRTs in the local response area (and maybe some from elsewhere in the metroplex) could be allowed in. Any more and the costs get prohibitive. Also, IFF for spirits attacking people on site could get tricky. Freindly fire isn't.

[MikeKozar]

And the spirits of any Mages on the HTRT nearby. This is probably the real reason you wouldn't get agent smith'd by the spirits of the corps. They figure all the HTRTs in the local response area (and maybe some from elsewhere in the metroplex) could be allowed in. Any more and the costs get prohibitive. Also, IFF for spirits attacking people on site could get tricky. Freindly fire isn't.

The section on wards in the SR4A book is thin. It says that the ward's creator can allow people through at will, that they know if someone is attempting to get through, and that warding a location requires no special materials.

From that we can infer that whichever wagemage was responsible for putting up the barrier is also going to be contracted to call security when the ward is attacked; it seems like a feature that site security would want, and would be willing to negotiate for. (Of course, Corp negotiations tend to be along the lines of "Nice SIN. Shame if something happened to it.") So, assume that corps want the warding mage on call, and make sure that happens.

Since there are no special materials, it sounds like we don't need blood, hair, or some other physical link to provide a 'key' - if there is a method for permanent passive access, it is not explicitly called out. We don't know if the warding mage needs to shake hands with every person getting passive access so they can add their astral signature or something. What we *do* know is that the mage can open the ward at will, and that he owns a phone.

So, maybe there could be an astral "guest list", but let's go ahead and assume the least efficient scenario - every time somebody hits the ward, the mage taps a button to ping the site's security office. When the contact is valid, like some executive with a sustained Enhance Charisma, the site's security office verifies the person at the gate is credentialed and pings the mage back to allow entry.

I don't see any reason why this system would be particularly expensive to run, or in any way unreasonable for a corp security setup. The practical offshoot is that if the corp attack spirit is at the ward, the summoner knows through the spirit/summoner link and pings the office, who ping the warding mage, who lets the spirit in.

Regarding friendly fire, this is another case of being able to explain things clearly to the spirit, which is something the corporation has time to work out in advance. Off the top of my head, it could be a command like "Subdue anyone in that building who is carrying a firearm and not dressed in a corporate uniform like mine", but the limits are really just how complex a command the spirit can understand, how much time the commander has to explain, and if the spirit can just watch a prepared set of instructions flash on a screen complete with photos of staff not to be killed. There's an old joke about a gamer who gets a wish from a genie, and pulls out a two-inch thick document that he had his attorney prepare, just in case. The thing about corps is that they have functionally unlimited resources in this game, and that includes having people do prep work for this kind of scenario.

By the way, I checked my math and having New York offices summon for a HRT in Seattle is less effective then I thought. Based on Astral travel speeds listed in SR4A, that trip would take 40 minutes, so assume the two-minute spirit response is just in the metroplex.

[Mardrax]

Well, you could extend it to a variety of corp mages at different locations, which would give you an effective spirit HRT team. However, it seems like it would also make all your facilities vulnerable to someone with Flexible Signature. Whether the benefits outweigh the costs, *shrug*

You're thinking of masking. It's about auras, not spell signatures.
And yes, but you'd need to have seen the aura of something with access rights. Which you might just copy off a patrolling spirit. That's quite a hefty Masking test though.

[Omenowl]

Drones with spiders are more than capable of handling 99.99% of incidents. Onsite security is to ensure lockdown, investigate issues, stop minor infractions such as a fist fight, etc. Mages would give backup to the spiders. This is more than enough to give shadowrunners hell and to handle all, but the most extreme incidents. As most sites do not have extraterritoriality there should not be issues with having Knight Errant/Lonestar arrive to back them up with their own SWAT teams.

Now for extraterritoriality site that is an entirely different issue. Now they are protecting not only their corporation, but also their citizens and their families. Any projectiles, explosives, etc leaving the site they are responsible for and if it should hit a citizen in another corporate property with extraterritoriality then you may have a war. They also have to deal with benefits such as healthcare, security, insurance, etc. Kill 10 employees and wound another 20 and they maybe looking at millions of yen losses, losses in productivity, a shaken faith by their workforce. As dystopian as shadowrun is, we cannot assume people suddenly don't care about their families or friends. PTSD can absolutely cripple a research team. So an HTR team will do their absolute best to instill faith into the workforce.

Now all bets are off at a secret facility where the goal of the HTR is to make sure no one leaves the area alive because of the nature of the research (WMDs, cyberzombies, etc.). The public outrage and required cleanup costs would far exceed destroying the facility.

Still an HTR is a highly valuable and expensive asset. 4-5 teams (assumes a 24/7 coverage by at least one team at any given time) each with 12-18 members will cost 15-22 million yen per year in salary, training and benefits. Plus equipment which is probably in the range of 10s to 100s of millions of yen. My bet is most companies have hired an HTR group which is shared by several companies. This way the cost is distributed and the risk is much less.

[Aku]

So, which do you think would help maintain morale/limit PTSD more, once a building is locked down? The presumed cold hard accuracy of the drones? or seeing the HRt team moving through the hallways?

My bet is most companies have hired an HTR group which is shared by several companies. This way the cost is distributed and the risk is much less.

I disagree with this. One, if you start an HTR company, then the company itself needs to make money as well, so the savings would be minimal. Secondly, While they may be available to low risk locations, I would think a company would keep its higher risk locations privatized, and once you have that established theres no reason to sell off the security for lower risk.

[suoq]

I troubled by the thought that AAA or AA companies have HRT from other companies on-call.

1) This implies that the company EXPECTS to need a HRT team, i.e. that they don't trust their security.
2) This creates an opportunity for the HRT company or for anyone who can infiltrate the HRT company to get someone into the first company's facility. i.e. the very existance of the contract of the HRT team could be considered an invitation to an event.

I'm much more comfortable with the thought that if an event happens AND the company finds itself unable to cope, then calls are quickly made to organizations that deal with these sorts of problems on a rapid basis. I can see such a firm contracting out as insurance to small firms (to cover their day-to-day), but not with the larger corporations who should have their own private firms that they own, not subcontract to.

This also has the appeal to me that I don't have a fixed, predictable, response team. I like options.

[PoliteMan]

My bet is most companies have hired an HTR group which is shared by several companies. This way the cost is distributed and the risk is much less.

Depends on the corp rating. A+ corp, sure, AA corp, maybe, AAA, unlikely. I mean, KS provides corp security but I can't see them providing security to SK, or the Azzies, or...or any megacorp really.

[Ascalaphus]

It depends a bit on the kind of facility, and on where;

1) A city where a corporation has multiple valuable locations. They'd station an HTR in the local headquarters, and it can be dispatched to any of the other locations as needed.

2) Low-value facility far from the corporation's home grounds: they'd subcontract a local firm to provide HTR if the situation ever came up.

3) A secret facility: HTR on-site, because flying it in as-needed is impractical. It might have a self-destruct mechanism in case all else fails.

4) Isolated high-value facility: likely HTR is stationed on-site, because this facility is too important to let in outsider HTRs (risk of espionage).



In general, corporations like scenario 1 best; a good HTR team is expensive. In fact, an HTR team is extremely expensive, because it needs to be able to deal with a wide range of emergencies, each of which is unlikely to occur. It's very unlikely multiple emergencies will occur. So to keep costs reasonable, a region would have a handful of HTRTs that service all the corp's facilities in the region.



What does all this mean for runners?

In case 3, it's just tough luck. Case 4 isn't too great either, although there's less reason for the corporation to have, say, a nuke buried under the facility to destroy evidence if security is compromised.

In case 1 and 2 however, you could actually divert HTR teams by creating a distraction on other facilities in those HTRTs' "service area". This is what alliances with crazy street gangs like the Halloweeners are good for.



On the other hand, particularly in cases 1 and 2, the facility may (apart from HTR) also have a "stalling response" (SR), designed to keep intruders from escaping before HTR arrives. This would be blast doors closing, lots of radio jamming/wifi inhibition to cut off runners from communicating with each other and their drones. Also: hatches sliding open and drones emerging (piloted by offsite spider) to keep runners busy. Maybe remote mages who hover in the astral while their spirits with Magical Guard materialize to provide counterspelling to the drones.

SR isn't nearly as intense as HTR, but it should give PCs a sense of urgency; they need to get past it before HTR arrives. It's the fight-your-way-out battle that a run ought to have, if the PCs get detected, but it's not a TPK thing. The objective is clear: run the gauntlet and get out, because if HTR gets there you're toast.

HTR could definitely be overwhelming, but you'd rarely get to see them. SR swinging in to lock you in, should be the warning sign players need to tell them that it's time to run. (This to the objection that "running from the HTR only works if you know HTR is on its way".)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, you could extend it to a variety of corp mages at different locations, which would give you an effective spirit HRT team. However, it seems like it would also make all your facilities vulnerable to someone with Flexible Signature. Whether the benefits outweigh the costs, *shrug*

Flexible Signature does not allow you to bypass a ward, it only allows you to alter your Signature. Bypassing wards is the provence of Masking alone.

[Omenowl]

I think most companies have several small sites or those of low importance and would have a contract HTR for those. IE docks with warehouses, multiple use office buildings, etc.

A centralized HTR for several sites, which in of themselves don't have enough to justify an HTR, but as a conglomerate do, would have a corporate HTR.

Top secret facilities or extraterritoriality locations would have their own onsite HTR.

Highly dangerous or critical sites that would cripple the company would have several HTRs with the capability of calling several others to arrive within hours.

These last two are what people view as the archetypical shadowrun, but honestly in my view those are campaign ending /retirement runs. It is a final climax with a TPK or where the players get so much money it no longer has the challenge. Regardless of the outcome everyone knows the campaign is coming to an end and people are ready to move on.

The first two are the bread and butter missions of shadowrunners. It is where they learn the tricks of the trade, garner enemies and friends, get better equipment, and the skills (karma) to pull off the legendary runs.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I'm having problems with some of the scenarios posted here:

@ HTRT on site: This should be limited to head-quarters or headquarters of security, because the HTRTs are being stationed there.

For secret production/research facilities it doesn't seem to make sense, because their prime defense is their secrecy: They don't want a lot of traffic going in or out, they don't want more personel there than necessary, and keeping just one elite team ready and trained is a major drain on any facility. I would say that most secret facilities should rely on drones and spirits for defense.

For high value production or research facilities, I would expect regular corpsec to be well staffed and equipped. But keeping an HTR team on site seems like overkill, and unnecessary expense.

So I believe a corp that has an HTR team must keep that in a central location within airlift reach of their high-value facilities.

@ Renting an HTRT: Why not? This is business, after all, and business knows no loyalty. Certainly AAAs or even AA+s might have their own, but I don't think too many other corps will. A dedicated security company with no known interest in similar fields of business as the customer is a small enough risk, and the gains are potentially very great. Highly rated security firms could easily rent out their elite troops, since they would hardly ever see enough "use" if they were just used for their own private business. So it is highly probable that many corps without an HTRT of their own will request one from an external source.

Again I think response times of 10 minutes are not realistic, but 30 minutes is possible around big cities, and 60 minutes for more remote installations.

Grades of HTR:

Corpsec in general has one problem: A security guard is ideally quite inconspicuous, while still being effective and efficient at his job. Now, like street cops, it doesn't really help to have everyone run around in heavy armour and with automatic weapons - if anything, that's a security risk.

So, I propose that the first line of increased threat response is not a real HTRT, but rather, a group of regular corpsec guards who are handed out special equipment. Just giving a regular goon heavy armour, an assault rifle and a shot of a given combat drug will dramatically increase his effectiveness for a while - long enough until the real contenders arrive. A lot of police forces really do the same: They can't afford to put every cop on the street with body armour and a big gun, and they also can't afford to keep so many SWAT teams or similar only on call and off street duty. So when a situation arrises they simply recall a select group of regular cops and outfit them with SWAT gear. These special corpsec guards try to contain the threat, while the real HTRT is en route.

That should make for more dramatic fights when trying to escape from a facility.

[HunterHerne]

I disagree with the HTRT being on-site for secret research facilities, as well. The biggest line of defence is secrecy, however, having a good security helps, when something eventually goes wrong. For this, the regular corpsec might have better gear then at another facility, but HTRT, if needed, would get the call, and likely arrive too late. Then it's a matter of internal investigations. For secret bases, it may be prudent to give regular security forces the equivalent of Home-ground, after all, in order to get the job there, they are either highly motivated to do their job, on it's own; or they are highly motivated to do their job because if they don't, no one will find the body.

[Warlordtheft]

In a secret facility I would place fewer guards, but higher quality ones. Also if the secret facility has a front then there may be more guards.


HTRTs to me would be onsite security for corp zero zones, special facilities like HQs or Arcologies. The could also be the base from which an HTRT would respond to another facility.

[KarmaInferno]

Ultra-secret facilities are where the cyberzombie security teams live.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-k

[Omenowl]

Most secret locations would be known. The secret part would be the type of experiments and activities actually occurring there. And you are right the quality of guards would be superior compared to other layered defenses of other facilities. Many secret locations would probably have their own underground ranges, training grounds, etc. The guards probably have several different responses, but access to every threat range of weapon. That said is you don't need or can afford the cost of an HTR for 95-99% of facilities.

The other issue we need to remember is corps probably have insurance. So a third party HTR may actually be the insurance corp's team who decided the liability is worth having their own team on call to protect the facility.

[Midas]

All these doubts about the economic viability of HTRTs, which are a part of SR canon! Some of you folks just aren't thinking big enough or dystopian enough, IMHO.

OK, first up the Megacorps are huge. Think GM, Ford and Boeing rolled into one and you are probably talking about a smaller megacorp. They are huge behemoths of corporations with economies larger than most countries and a tangled web of diversified interests, from food to tech to entertainment as well as whatever they are famous for. AAA megas will have multiple facilities in every city, as well as a raft of subsidiaries. This makes HTRT very feasible. Smaller corps will probably subcontract HTRT forces from parent corps or from specialists such as Lone Star and Knight Errant who have enough personnel to turn a buck on providing HTRT overlay.

As for expenses for running such forces? Milspec armour, big guns and drones are cheap and largely one-off investments. Cyberware/bioware for HTRT personnel will come at wholesale prices cheaper than laid out in the book; personnel may well be encouraged to buy SOTA 'ware from their salaries for the corp win. With all the wars in SR canon, the sixth world is awash with ex-military folks looking for a quieter, less lethal life. Corps will recruit the lowlier ranks as security guards and the elites as HTRT a la Haliburton, getting highly trained individuals without having to pay a single nuyen for their military training. OK, granted the corp will have to spend some on retraining these guys for their new jobs, but this costs much less than training up someone from scratch.

As for salaries, they won't necessarily be so high. Again, as per SR canon, wageslaves put up with a lot of crap because of the security the corp provides for them and their families. Not having to worry that your wife/hubby will get shot in a driveby on the way to buy groceries, or the knowledge that little Jimmy will get an education at the corp school (as opposed to no education) is priceless. This security is a big reason that wageslaves put up with all the shit the corp throws at them, and why they accept the demanding boss and the long hours they are exhorted to work. Granted HTRT guys would be paid a pretty good salary, but not as much as you might think. Around 15K a month (what HTRT guys would expect to be paid in my universe) keeps a family in a high lifestyle and allows them to put some money away as savings. And remember when you calculate this salary cost, they are paid in corp script which can be used to buy corp-made products and services (with inbuilt profits to recycle into the corp coffers).

Granted running costs for an HTRT facility won't be cheap, but nor will they be extortionately expensive for a mega with 30+ facilities to look after. Most megas will probably have a number of HTRT facilities to cover each sprawl and get the specialists to most facilities in 10 mins or less, but YMMV.

[PoliteMan]

I obviously didn't clarify this well enough, my bad.

HRTs exist, there's no doubt, they're in the fluff and there's great story reasons to have an "elite" corp fighting force.

The disagreement, from my point of view, was whether the kind of "super HRT team" I thought some people were discussing is feasible, the kind that is an automatic TPK for the party. Just off gear, you're probably looking at 250k a person to match your typical Sam; over a team of, bare minimum, 30 HRT personnel that's a pretty chunk of change and it gets much more expensive if you try to make them better than the Sam because you've hit the Essence wall, now you need to start upgrading things to Alpha or Betaware just to fit new ware in. Add in the fact that they need a ton of support, super-fast transports, Matrix and Magical support, etc and you start to get a force which is simply too expensive for any but the most elite facilities. Other facilities are probably going to have HRT teams, they're just not that good.

It's kind of like Robocop. Yes, Robocop is awesome but wouldn't it be cheaper and more effective just to hire a hundred regular cops? You really only need one Robocop, if that.

[suoq]

My problem with the on-site Heavy Response Team and expense is not that the corps can't afford it. Obviously, they can.

But if you can afford X nuyen to have a Heavy Response Team on-site wouldn't it be better to spend X-1 nuyen on not needing to have a heavy response team on-site?

For example, in the Omaha write-up I just finished there are 12 secret facilities surrounding the city of Lincoln Nebraska. This type of secret facility exists across much of the US already, a Denver based campaign has options at least as good. They're easy to guard, ward, cut off from hackers, and prevent unwanted access to and they're cheap as heck. Heck, they come nuclear hardened.

From a GM perspective, they're already mapped with published layouts, meaning much of your work and justification is already complete.

These existing facilities are already as brutal to a team of shadowrunners as you need them to be without the constant ongoing expense of on-site heavy response teams rotating shifts with their butts nursing their thumbs.

sample links:
http://www.missilebases.com/properties
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoDcnbevOy8

[HunterHerne]

My problem with the on-site Heavy Response Team and expense is not that the corps can't afford it. Obviously, they can.

But if you can afford X nuyen to have a Heavy Response Team on-site wouldn't it be better to spend X-1 nuyen on not needing to have a heavy response team on-site?

For example, in the Omaha write-up I just finished there are 12 secret faculties surrounding the city of Lincoln Nebraska. This type of secret facility exists across much of the US already, a Denver based campaign has options at least as good. They're easy to guard, ward, cut off from hackers, and prevent unwanted access to and they're cheap as heck. Heck, they come nuclear hardened.

From a GM perspective, they're already mapped with published layouts, meaning much of your work and justification is already complete.

These existing facilities are already as brutal to a team of shadowrunners as you need them to be without the constant ongoing expense of on-site heavy response teams rotating shifts with their butts nursing their thumbs.

sample links:
http://www.missilebases.com/properties
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoDcnbevOy8

I agree. I don't think on-site HTRT is a good idea, ever. The HTRT should be a group of teams that respond to several locations (if there are multiple threats at several facilities, they can call in an off-duty group. There are on-call people at most jobs these days, anyway. Likely more chance of that in a dystopia.). The size of each team (3-5 depending on how many facilities they are actually responsible for) should be about 8, and highly trained.

For the secret facilities, 10-15 well trained guards with basic gear, and heavier gear in accessible locations (hidden compartments with bio-scanner locks and codes), for when they absolutely need it. HTRT shouldn't be necessary. Especially since they'll have extra-territoriality, and the intrusion shouldn't be able to escape (easily) once the alarm goes off.