[X] My Assistant

[MikeKozar]

I think this is the major disconnect. HRT teams are not the corporate protagonist, if anything the Johnson is. While combat has a place, this is basically a game of corporate espionage. I have two major problems with what you're proposing.

The first is a realism issue. While it sounds like we have a bunch of people with military experience here and that's wonderful but HRT are not military units, they're corporate units. They're not going to be equipped or trained to military standards ...

You understand that these corps have fought hard to earn the right to defend their own territory? They literally have their own private army, not to mention enemies that are not above employing thieves and saboteurs to wreck up our pretty little corp. Also, this is set in a corporate distopia, where the corps have an obscene amount of money to throw around. Remember that this game was heavily inspired by Robocop.

The second is a general fun issue. I don't like TPKs, it's very hard to roleplay and get into a character if they all die. I don't like automatic TPKs, because they're just not fun.

I agree that the HRT should not actually hit the PCs if the PCs are careful. Ideally, I want to have the HRT in my pocket as a plot device, explaining why the mission is hit-and-run, not shoot-and-loot. If the players decide to go toe-to-toe with a corp army, I want the corp army to put fear in them, but that should only ever happen once. More useful is establishing that these guys *exist*, and then using them as part of the world - SnakeDancer got gunned down by the MCT Heavies last week, and is currently being interrogated - let's bust him out and he'll owe us big time. The safehouse is crawling with Heavies - we need to get out of town, fast! The biodrone hybrids are tearing through this place, and our weapons aren't working - the heavies show up and distract the monsters long enough for us to fall back and regroup! HRTs are a part of the Shadowrun world for me, they're why I justify the anarchists letting this go on so long, but I'm not after a TPK. I just want my players to think I am. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[PoliteMan]

You understand that these corps have fought hard to earn the right to defend their own territory? They literally have their own private army, not to mention enemies that are not above employing thieves and saboteurs to wreck up our pretty little corp. Also, this is set in a corporate distopia, where the corps have an obscene amount of money to throw around. Remember that this game was heavily inspired by Robocop.

Yes, they've fought hard to defend their own territory and they're all going to defend their territory differently. It doesn't matter how much money they have, presuming it's some non-infinite amount then every nuyen going into an HRT team isn't going into another defensive program like Matrix security or intelligence. And that's ignoring the broader corporate picture, giving every member of an HRT team Wired Reflexes 1 instead of Wired Reflexes 2 makes them less effective but that 300,000 could hire five more corporate drones and they'll bring in additional money every year. The only time the corp is ever going to spend the money on HRT is if they prevent more in losses than those additional corporate could make in profits.

I agree that the HRT should not actually hit the PCs if the PCs are careful. Ideally, I want to have the HRT in my pocket as a plot device, explaining why the mission is hit-and-run, not shoot-and-loot. If the players decide to go toe-to-toe with a corp army, I want the corp army to put fear in them, but that should only ever happen once. More useful is establishing that these guys *exist*, and then using them as part of the world - SnakeDancer got gunned down by the MCT Heavies last week, and is currently being interrogated - let's bust him out and he'll owe us big time. The safehouse is crawling with Heavies - we need to get out of town, fast! The biodrone hybrids are tearing through this place, and our weapons aren't working - the heavies show up and distract the monsters long enough for us to fall back and regroup! HRTs are a part of the Shadowrun world for me, they're why I justify the anarchists letting this go on so long, but I'm not after a TPK. I just want my players to think I am. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Hmm, I can dig this. As long as they're mostly "offscreen", no harm. I'd just be cautious when whenever they actually appear "onscreen", things could go bad real fast.

[Midas]

Form the fluff in SR, most megacorps (note the word MEGA, as in big) have on-site security at each facility and an HTRT overwatch ready to go in to any one of their many facilities should the alarm be raised. If a corp has the sort of paydata, research gizmo or brainiac that runners would be paid to get their hands on it doesn't make sense not to have an off-site HTRT on standby to protect these assets if needed. Larger corps will have their own flavour of HTRT, smaller corps may subcontract to a parent corp or Lone Star/Knight Errant, whatever.

On-site security is the first line of defence. Given the number of wars in SR multiverse history, these guys could be ex-military but now they are civvies with a cushy job and a family safely ensconced in corp housing. They are there to protect the facility from minor threats such as gangers etc., but if the facility is targetted by a highly trained group of runners their main job is to (1) sound the alarm, (2) lockdown the facility and/or protect its most sensitive assets (server room, research lab or whatever), and (3) do their best to thwart/slow down the runners until the HTRT arrive. These guys have dependents and a pretty crappy wage, so they will do their best to do their job (they don't want to lose it and have their family thrown out to fend for themselves) but won't die for the cause if they can help it.

As many have said and the fluff recommends, once the alarm is sounded it is time for the runners to finish their job and get the hell out of dodge. Within 10 mins or so (could be less, could be more), two things will happen. (1) The cavalry will arrive and surround the place, whether it is city cops, corp security or a mixture of both. (2) HTRT will be scrambled to go in and secure the facility.

According to the fluff, the HTRT should be highly-skilled and well equipped (mill spec armour, APDS, grenades [although probably more of the flash bang/smoke variety to minimize structural damage], drone and magical support). HTRT hackers should have backdoor access to the matrix and quite probably overrides for on-site drones, ICE etc. Yes, prime runners might eat an HTRT team for breakfast, but for lesser mortals taking on an HTRT squad should be something to be avoided if possible. The HTRT should be tactically astute, so getting the drop on them shouldn't be easy. They will use drones to scout ahead and use security doors etc to protect their backs. Yes PC's can take on HTRT units, but at least in my games unless they have a good plan they are potentially facing heavy casualties or worse.

I usually have 2 HTRT squads, one to secure the most sensitive part of the facility, and the second to move to neutralize the threat. The first squad's hacker will head to the CPU (ready for cybercombat) to check if data has been taken. The second group's hacker backdoors to security to get hold of the facility's eyes, ears, drones etc. and locate the threat. Team 1's hacker moniters team 2's hacker's biomoniter, and should something happen to him, hacker 1 will shutdown they system - so if the HTRT can't have the facility's eyes, they will at least blind the PC's as well.

YMMV, but if HTRT are just PC cannon fodder in your game, either your team are prime runners or the GM ain't playing them right.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Spent some time watching videos of various response teams suiting up, running drills, etc. It's interesting to realize just how long they take to do things. My impression was that their jobs require them to be very methodical and that they're trained to respond to what are, essentially, static situations.

Some notes on response times:
http://acolumbinesite.com/swat.html - Columbine SWAT response times. Truly depressing.
http://franklinlakes.patch.com/articles/wy...t-team-on-scene - again, if you're looking for fast response, it isn't here.
http://cmeswat.com/Example%20Eval%20Hostag...scue%20Scen.pdf - Note that in this Evaluation, the expected response time of 2 hours was met.

Well... each of these things will provide a certain amount of insight - in 60-70 years, things might be different. Of course, basically ALL time frames in SR are compressed, due to the ridiculously short amounts of time people actually spend in combat. Which means, if you want HTR to be a credible threat, you HAVE to cheat the response time.

Right now, you can have firefights between less than 10 people on either side last hours, and even with few losses, because the attacks are pressed forward. Even classic terror attacks take a LONG time. Long enough to bring in relevant reinforcements. In SR, a fight is over in about 5-6 seconds, tops, with basically NO hostiles left within tactical distance. Everyone is either winner, dead, or running. The scenario that was mentioned earlier, with one platoon or so defending the mockup town, was a forced advance situation, but still took 8 hours. And the reason is simply, that in real life, people don't (normally) simply run forward when under fire. Of course there are relevant military tactics that advocate just this, but at that point the commander is calculating losses in ranges of 30-50%, and basically the only combatants corps can afford to lose in such numbers are dumb, cheap grunts. (And the military can't actually afford this at all, anymore.)

A solution would be to enforce non-combat actions in combat - if you encounter a difficult tactical situation, and withdraw to change the plans, play that out in mission time, instead of the usual out-game discussion that takes all of 0 time in game.

[ Spoiler ]

Personally I've long advocated vastly increasing the time increments of combat turns - make them 10 seconds, or even 30 seconds long. That way relevant non-combat actions can be taken at the same time as combat actions. Also, you can move longer distances. Of course, accuracy must be reduced, too, so that the increased time frame does not result in a loss of immersion. (For instance, in the first IP (of 3) of your 30 second turn, you state you engage with a semi-automatic weapon. You fire about 8-10 shots. If you engage with an automatic weapon at full auto, you empty one mag. OR you fire about 3-4 three-round bursts. You do ONE roll for these, and find a suitable manner of adjudicating effects. This requires a LOT of changes in the mechanics, but would produce more realistic tactical combat.

So you have to put the threat on the few minutes that actual mission completion takes, or on extraction. Even so, unless you have your runners actually move in turns along a very large tactical map, there aren't many good game mechanics to produce the kind of tension you want here: You basically have the clock ticking, while the runners do their thing, but all the time it's completely up to you whether they manage or not, because time frames for non-combat actions are so vague. Even if you roll the response time (perhaps 2d6x10 minutes for HTR), it's still the GM ensuring either success or failure, because it's up to him to say "you take 5 minutes to cross the perimeter" or, "you take 20 minutes to sneak across the perimeter". Of course there are rules for this, too, but they require a far greater amount of tedium - measuring distances, calculating movement speeds with varying modifiers, etc.

Basic response time issues I'm finding in research:
1) Gathering of personnel and gear. Note that the personnel and the gear may well be in different locations as it's more cost-effective to have the members of the team on duty in normal uniform than sitting in a response room. When this happens, the gear is brought to the location's staging area and the personnel suit up there.
2) Lack of intel. Unlike a GM that knows all, these teams often have a safe perimeter and very little information about the current state of the target location. This requires caution which takes time.
3) Chain of command. Someone has to have the authority to make the decision to commit the team. These people want to make the decision based on accurate information, something they simply don't have. Denied information, the ability to make the correct decision is greatly reduced and as such denial of information can result in delays on deployment.

What I would expect, and what other people here seem to expect does not appear to be in line with what happens in the field. Logistics, Intel, and the Chain of Command all seem to turn what we would like to be a Fast Action Response Team into a F.A.R.T.

This I would say is accurate, and makes sure that short of a hostage situation, or when regular corpsec has managed to box in the runners, they don't get to meet HTR. There is one other case where you could meet them: In an assault on the runner team. If a corp wants to make a point and set and example, I would not use regular corpsec for attacks on runner teams. I would use mercs, other runners, OR HTR teams, in order of how much the target team pissed off the corp. At that point the shit has really hit the fan.

[Warlordtheft]

Osprey, love it, live it, kick ass with it. Corporate Airspace as is undoubtedly limited in elevation or travel anywhere around a city would be completely screwed. As to assembling and all that. Personnel on standby, don't need to have anything distributed, get briefed on the way to the LZ, and generally take 2.5 minutes from getting kicked out of your bunk to launching off a LHD. I'm sure HTRT whose only job is responding to security has one team on standby at all times. Which means throw your shit on, and step out to the launchpad, and go. Try closer to one minute. If you don't want to believe me feel free to look at FMFM's that detail acceptable time frames. This was for TRAP missions.

So assuming the HTRT is stationed within 10 klicks of said secured facility, cause you know when setting up the location of the facility they would never consider the HTRT ability to get there and support the "standard security". A smart corp who thought all this out would have multiple facitilities and multiple HTRT on Standby for security reason. It only gets tricky when said lab/research facilitiy is secret, in which case mother corp might not know what sonny or daughter VP is up to so you would not have an HTRT. Though in this case they might hire local professionals (shadow runners, gangers, Yakuza, Mob, etc,etc) to pull guard duty. But assuming this is on mother corp's I know it is mine list, I'd assume the HTRT team is based out of the corp ZERO zone facilitities in the area (response time is immdiate in the Zero zone). I'd picture the scene of the HTRT team almost ready to go, and either running VR sims or playing cards when the wistle blows, grabbing their helmets (cause they wear their security armor while on call--massaging liners are standard along with biomonitors) and going to their waiting VTOL craft or Van. THis would include a mage or two (depending on corp).

Ok now that is the physical part of it....

Matrix: A facilitiy on alert has two options:swarm the system, or physically shut it down. Their response time is 1 combat turn, and well this can get ugly for the hacker if he/she/it faces off against 5 other hackers.....the PC hacker may control the system, but it will not be long before an OPFOR hacker commands the system to reboot the user access IDs. In addition, probably a couple of rating 6 jammers would be activated at the facility. To me most of a buildings matrix in any secure location would be hardwired. Yes it is a little more expensive, but not prohibitively so.

Astral: Probably within the 2-3 combat turns, astral HTRT will begin sweep of the facitility. They will most certainly be doing recon and using watchers to relay the information back to HQ. Also they can summon spirits or call their bonded ones on the astral to go in an mess with the runners.

The expense of this is shared by the dozen or so research facilities/factories located in the response time frame there. It would probably be possible to have 50 or so members of the HTRT stationed there--not that all would be sent, with more available from further afield.


BTW---this is why I don't do Pink Mohawk....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Faelan]

I think this is the major disconnect. HRT teams are not the corporate protagonist, if anything the Johnson is. While combat has a place, this is basically a game of corporate espionage. I have two major problems with what you're proposing.

Stop right there. Shadowrun is a game about a dystopian future, where magic exists, and corporations are effectively their own countries. The tip of the iceberg for shadow activity is listed on p.18 and 19 of the SR4A. Some of these activities could be a part of espionage, they could also be done for their own sake, they could be done for personal reasons, they could even be done for the greater good, essentially saying SR is one thing is pigeonholing the setting, and in my opinion is a seriously flawed view of the game.

The first is a realism issue. While it sounds like we have a bunch of people with military experience here and that's wonderful but HRT are not military units, they're corporate units. They're not going to be equipped or trained to military standards because military units worry about effectiveness (eg. killing as many people as possible) while corporations worry about efficiency (how can we kill as many people for the least amount of money).

Well I know I was in the USMC for 8 years, and I know Tymaeus was also a gungi gumby man, and HTRT are military units. What do you think Corporate Security is? They start and run wars in third world nations, the advisors of 2072 are Corporate types, or their proxies. 20 years of Shadowrun cannon disagrees with your point, so please accept that it is not the default.

Money is always going to be a constraint because the corporation wants to maximize profits and faces significant opportunity costs. If you spend two million nuyen on an HRT team, that's two million you're not spending on something else: you could spend it in Magicians and power foci (like Wuxing), you could spend it on spies and bribes to let you know when shadowrunner's might attack (like Horizon or Shiawise), you might invest in drones and hackers/riggers (like MCT). Every corp faces tradeoffs in terms of their security, you can have great onsite security, or a strong HRT, or excellent intelligence, or excellent Matrix security, or great magical security, but you probably don't have enough to max each of those out. And each corp is going to choose which areas they focus on differently. Ares with Firewatch and Renraku with the Red Samurai take strong HRT teams, that's great. If every corp has the same defense, same focus, well, it might work for your table but you're missing out on a lot of potential depth.

Every corporation will have different methods, doctrine, tables of organization, combat loads, things they stress and things they don't, but if you are suggesting that they will lack something you are seriously mistaken. Corporations copy each other because success is something you copy. If you know that without a specific type of unit, another corporation is going to completely own your ass in that field, you step up and compete. While each will have their strengths, they are not going to be lacking in any of those areas entirely.

The second is a general fun issue. I don't like TPKs, it's very hard to roleplay and get into a character if they all die. I don't like automatic TPKs, because they're just not fun.

I don't like TPKs, in fact I hate them, but if after everything I hinted at, all the clues I dropped, the blatant direct "You may want to reconsider that course of action..." after all that if I don't "Bring It", my fun would be ruined, not for that session but for every session after. I don't get off on TPKs unless I somehow managed to pick up a crew of complete idiots to game with.

I'm glad you apparently run such great games that you have no shortage of players waiting. I don't; if somebody isn't having fun I want to know. I want to try to help new players, not just threaten them with consequences, because SR is a very different game from most RPGs. And if all the players are having problems with something, like TPKs, then it's probably time for me to adjust my game, go a bit more pink mohawk. And I think most GMs fall into that category, they need to be patient and coddle new players, they avoid TPKs, and they respond to what their players want.

How many TPK's have I had? Did I say it anywhere, no. So let's not play that card, or the fun card. Clearly if my players were not having fun I would not have players. I run a balanced game, leaning towards no particular style of play with great fervor. The one thing I stick to is what I tell them, so if I am giving them warnings I better back it up. Also SR is not a very different game, it is an RPG like any other, what the GM does with it is the same as any other game.

[CanRay]

You want to see my Heavy Response Team?

Fine: Here's just one of them.

[Aku]

You want to see my Heavy Response Team?

Fine: Here's just one of them.

Psh. my HR Team is awesomer

[PoliteMan]

Stop right there. Shadowrun is a game about a dystopian future, where magic exists, and corporations are effectively their own countries. The tip of the iceberg for shadow activity is listed on p.18 and 19 of the SR4A. Some of these activities could be a part of espionage, they could also be done for their own sake, they could be done for personal reasons, they could even be done for the greater good, essentially saying SR is one thing is pigeonholing the setting, and in my opinion is a seriously flawed view of the game.

Huh? We're discussing corporate HRT teams fighting armed intruders to a corporate building aiming at espionage, sabotage, or assassination. In a game called Shadowrun. If we were discussing a general campaign, or a mercenary mission, or a "ancient/arcane mysteries" mission, or any of the alternatives I'd totally agree with you. And yes, very rarely a team might risk their lives to break into a highly secure facility for something other than money. I don't think those 1-in-a-hundred runs are what's being discussed. And there's a real danger to viewing HRT as the corporate protagonist, there's a danger in promoting a "GM v PC attitude". When the Johnson is the protagonist, the goal is for the run to succeed, when HRT is the corporate protagonist, the goal is for the run to fail.

Well I know I was in the USMC for 8 years, and I know Tymaeus was also a gungi gumby man, and HTRT are military units. What do you think Corporate Security is? They start and run wars in third world nations, the advisors of 2072 are Corporate types, or their proxies. 20 years of Shadowrun cannon disagrees with your point, so please accept that it is not the default.

Thank you for serving but I think that experience is going to work against you here for a simple reason:
The USMC is not (I hope) a profit-maximizing corporation.
A Megacorp is.

They're going to minimize costs wherever they can, even if it leads to increased deaths at one of their facilities. The HRT will only get as much funding as the corp would lose from shadowruns if they downgraded the HRT to have weaker gear/ware.

I'm not discussing a corp having or not having an HRT. I'm discussing how effective that HRT team is going to be given certain cost restraints. Let me put this in more concrete terms.

Let's presume the average SR has 3 IP. A corp can easily afford to upgrade all their HRT teams from Wired Reflexes II to Wired Reflexes III, which will give the HRT a significant advantage over the shadowrunners. However, since you probably need alphaware due to essence restrictions, there's an increased cost of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 168,000 per person to upgrade the team from Wired Reflexes II to Alphaware Wired Reflexes III. Over 30 people (2 HRTs), that's a bit over 5 million nuyen. Will that increased capability save the megacorp an extra five million nuyen? If not, the HRT will not get it.

In business terms, it's actually worse than that. If the corp could reinvest that 5 million nuyen into another factory, then for the HRT to get those Alphaware Wired Reflexes III, they need to save the corp an additional 5 million nuyen over what they would have saved the corp if they only had Wired Reflexes II, plus whatever profits that potential factory would have made.

These are circumstances I hope the USMC does not face. But they are circumstances HRT, and any loss prevention department, face in a megacorp. Because HRT are not military units, although they act like them, they're corporate units.

I don't like TPKs, in fact I hate them, but if after everything I hinted at, all the clues I dropped, the blatant direct "You may want to reconsider that course of action..." after all that if I don't "Bring It", my fun would be ruined, not for that session but for every session after. I don't get off on TPKs unless I somehow managed to pick up a crew of complete idiots to game with.

How many TPK's have I had? Did I say it anywhere, no. So let's not play that card, or the fun card. Clearly if my players were not having fun I would not have players. I run a balanced game, leaning towards no particular style of play with great fervor. The one thing I stick to is what I tell them, so if I am giving them warnings I better back it up. Also SR is not a very different game, it is an RPG like any other, what the GM does with it is the same as any other game.

I think your experiences as a GM are unique in several ways:
#1 Most of us do not have a surplus of fellow gamers to play with. Look at poor CanRay, who's been trying to find a group in the frozen wastes of Canada since dinosaurs roamed the Earth.
#2 So you warn your players not to do something, they do it, and you punish them with a TPK because otherwise you can't have fun? There's no other solution besides a TPK? And if all the players are doing something (and probably think it's a reasonable idea) and you think it's dumb, they're idiots?
#3 SR tends to throw new players because the violence is a lot more brutal and it requires much more stealth and subtlety than D&D or a lot of common RPGs. The only players I've seen who quickly adjust to the SR mindset are Trail/Call of Cthulu players.

[MikeKozar]

They're going to minimize costs wherever they can, even if it leads to increased deaths at one of their facilities. The HRT will only get as much funding as the corp would lose from shadowruns if they downgraded the HRT to have weaker gear/ware.

I'm not discussing a corp having or not having an HRT. I'm discussing how effective that HRT team is going to be given certain cost restraints. Let me put this in more concrete terms.

Let's presume the average SR has 3 IP. A corp can easily afford to upgrade all their HRT teams from Wired Reflexes II to Wired Reflexes III, which will give the HRT a significant advantage over the shadowrunners. However, since you probably need alphaware due to essence restrictions, there's an increased cost of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 168,000 per person to upgrade the team from Wired Reflexes II to Alphaware Wired Reflexes III. Over 30 people (2 HRTs), that's a bit over 5 million nuyen. Will that increased capability save the megacorp an extra five million nuyen? If not, the HRT will not get it.

In business terms, it's actually worse than that. If the corp could reinvest that 5 million nuyen into another factory, then for the HRT to get those Alphaware Wired Reflexes III, they need to save the corp an additional 5 million nuyen over what they would have saved the corp if they only had Wired Reflexes II, plus whatever profits that potential factory would have made.

These are circumstances I hope the USMC does not face. But they are circumstances HRT, and any loss prevention department, face in a megacorp. Because HRT are not military units, although they act like them, they're corporate units.

I feel the need to reiterate a few things. First, HRT members do not need to be prime runners - my original build had them at 100k per unit, including upgraded military armor and weapons, an extra IP and enough bodyware to make them survivable. By your math, that's an initial investment of 3 million nuyen. Assuming a fairly high survival rate, call it 2/3, we wind up reinvesting about 1 million nuyen per year to keep it running. That sounds like a lot of money to you and me, but let's consider that these companies pull in billions and trillions of nuyen. Further, if you don't believe that a Shadow team can deal a million nuyen of damage in one good night, you haven't been running the sorts of missions I have.

You make a good point that the corps will not want to overfund their security, but by definition, that security is only sufficiently funded if it can stop guys like us from breaking in, killing dozens of valuable people, destroying equipment and making our trade secrets public domain. In short, if they deliberately field incompetent security forces for accounting reasons (as you suggest) then that mistake is going to be corrected the first time somebody's pet project (or pet project manager) goes up in flames because accounting were cutting corners.

I also feel like you aren't giving private militaries enough credit. Police forces, including SWAT, have to jump through a lot of hoops to get funding increased - consider the big fight in the papers this week over how the US government needs to slash spending. Without that funding, you don't get teams on standby, you don't get 24 hour command and control, you don't get the best people and gear - you compromise. Conversely, if Damien Knight decides he wants Firewatch Seattle to be ready to fight a small war in less time then it takes him to order a pizza, guess what? He gets what he wants.

#2 So you warn your players not to do something, they do it, and you punish them with a TPK because otherwise you can't have fun? There's no other solution besides a TPK? And if all the players are doing something (and probably think it's a reasonable idea) and you think it's dumb, they're idiots?

To be fair, we're not suggesting "Rocks fall, everyone dies" here. The idea is that the Shadowrunners are taking on someone that is ostensibly more powerful then they are. The only reason that Shadowrunning works is that the big, bad corps don't have time to bring their big guns to bear before the Shadow team has already vanished. If the team give the corp forces time to mount a serious defense, then that defense should be sufficient to stop the attack. This isn't a GM vs Player mentality, it's one of the basic, canonical expectations of the run versus a megacorp. In fact, I think it is fair to say that if Megacorp A realizes that Megacorp B is unwilling or unable to stop mercenaries from destroying valuable property, they would seriously consider a hostile takeover by way of a frontal assault. Like you said, it's all about the bottom line, and having a competitor lose all three factories has got to help somebody's quarterly profits.

[Blitz66]

#2 So you warn your players not to do something, they do it, and you punish them with a TPK because otherwise you can't have fun? There's no other solution besides a TPK? And if all the players are doing something (and probably think it's a reasonable idea) and you think it's dumb, they're idiots?

If you're playing D&D, and the PCs go find the biggest red dragon in the setting at level 1, despite your warnings, what do you do? Tell them the dragon is in a deep sleep and thus isn't awake and killing them despite intruding in its lair? Well, when they declare they're going to butcher the dragon in its sleep, steal its horde, and sell his body parts to wizards, what do you do then? Do you let them do it, or does the dragon wake up and nuke them? "Letting the players do whatever they want without consequences" makes for a short, awful game.

HTR, while not being a dragon, is a threat far more easily avoidable than defeatable. All you have to do is GET OUT once your presence is discovered. Your players, going into the game, should know that they're not intended to gun down all opposition, but run away, killing as necessary to escape, so they can live to run away again another day. They're not heroic invincible supermen. They're common, possibly uncommon criminals. If they don't know that, somebody has failed.

[PoliteMan]

I'm not sure we're disagreeing on principles so much as degrees. Here's the gear I usually use for low-level HRT teams, UCAS soldiers, etc.

Ware: Military Suite
Muscle Replacement III 15,000 3.0
Wired Reflexes I 11,000 2.0
5.0*1.2*0.9=5.94
26,000*0,5*0.9=11,700
Armor: 24,100
Softweave Medium Military Armor with Helmet, Vision Magnification, Vision Enhancement 3, and Thermographic.
Weapon: 3,865
Ares Alpha with Stock, Gas Vent 3, Shock Pad, and Airburst Link.
Recoil: 7
Ammo: 100 rounds of ADPS
Micro Grenades: 3 Flash Bangs, 3 High Explosive.
Total: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 43,665

In general, I would encourage the use of used cyberware suites. It makes sense that companies would be able to afford their own customized cyberware suites for troops, making them used decreases cost greatly and enforces the uniformity/disposable nature of corpsec.
That's well below what a Sam can do but they can survive a lot and dish out a fair bit of damage with automatics/heavy weapons of 4.

Edit for blitz: I don't see HRT as a red dragon, especially since SR has dragons. In D&D, a good session has you kill everything because the game very carefully sets out level appropriate encounters. In SR, a good session is where you don't kill anyone because the planning was just that good. There's a big mindset switch involved there. How many newbie groups have you seen or heard of with the psychotic Sam who threatens or tries to kill everything? It's a cliche because it's very common.

[Blitz66]

If that's the problem, it's because someone didn't make it clear that gunning down all opposition wasn't the point. Personally, in such a group, let the psycho sammy play rear guard, and recruit his replacement tomorrow, because yikes. I'm a new player myself, but this is a game of a small band of criminals against extremely powerful entities of all types, and you don't survive that kind of thing by standing and slugging it out, as the fluff makes abundantly clear.

[Mardrax]

Like you said, it's all about the bottom line, and having a competitor lose all three factories has got to help somebody's quarterly profits.

Except you don't want them destroyed. You want their valuable research and production data copied, and the originals destroyed, earning you the fruits of years of their labour for the cost of hiring one runner team. With no one to implicate you when you release a slight variation on the product for the holiday season.

Oh, and for those who argue penny-turning accountants: really now?
What do you presume just one year-long research project is worth?
How's about when it nears reaching fruition in a couple years?
How's about its lead researcher, who can lead these this well as long as we keep up the leonisation treatment?
How's about a facility that houses several of these projects on varying scales?
How's about several of these facilities?

Because that's the value that HTRT team will be defending, among other things. And on that kind of scale, that investment of 10 million is laughable.

[Faelan]

Huh? We're discussing corporate HRT teams fighting armed intruders to a corporate building aiming at espionage, sabotage, or assassination. In a game called Shadowrun. If we were discussing a general campaign, or a mercenary mission, or a "ancient/arcane mysteries" mission, or any of the alternatives I'd totally agree with you. And yes, very rarely a team might risk their lives to break into a highly secure facility for something other than money. I don't think those 1-in-a-hundred runs are what's being discussed. And there's a real danger to viewing HRT as the corporate protagonist, there's a danger in promoting a "GM v PC attitude". When the Johnson is the protagonist, the goal is for the run to succeed, when HRT is the corporate protagonist, the goal is for the run to fail.

No actually we are discussing this:

I'm working on a write-up of my defense-in-depth security template, and I'm looking at my Heavy Responders. This is a tricky slot to write-up in advance, since the whole idea of a HRT is to put the fear of corporate wrath into the PCs; A Heavy Response Team needs to represent unquestionably overwhelming force. At the same time, I'd like to inject some of the corporate personality that Shadowrunners are rebelling against, in the sense that these guys are cookie-cutter cannon fodder, not as special or as tricked-out as the PCs.

I don't see anything about espionage. There is nothing about the context at all, though the location is mentioned later on. So once again someone is imagining things. Also a note to what I said about the corporate protagonist:

HTRT are the protagonists if you are the corper.

You know like from the point of view of the people the Shadowrunners are doing things to. Likewise from their point of view the Johnson would be an antagonist. Got it, read the posts if you want to have a discussion that makes sense.

Thank you for serving but I think that experience is going to work against you here for a simple reason:
The USMC is not (I hope) a profit-maximizing corporation. A Megacorp is.

The fact that I have owned a business for ten years should have no bearing on my ability to understand what maximizing profit is either. The books cleary disagree with you on this point. HTRT exist, in numbers, and every Megacorp has them, because otherwise the other Megacorps would eat them for breakfast.

They're going to minimize costs wherever they can, even if it leads to increased deaths at one of their facilities. The HRT will only get as much funding as the corp would lose from shadowruns if they downgraded the HRT to have weaker gear/ware.

I'm not discussing a corp having or not having an HRT. I'm discussing how effective that HRT team is going to be given certain cost restraints. Let me put this in more concrete terms.

No one suggested that runners were not individually better than HTRT, so the below scenario is rather pointless, not to mention trying to get everyone to agree to what you have presented as an average expense scenario would be futile so I am essentially going to ignore it and skip on to the rest of your post.

I think your experiences as a GM are unique in several ways:
#1 Most of us do not have a surplus of fellow gamers to play with. Look at poor CanRay, who's been trying to find a group in the frozen wastes of Canada since dinosaurs roamed the Earth.

I have lived in multiple cities, states, and even countries and have never had a problem getting a group together. Also I know I am not some unique flower because I have many friends I don't game with who also GM and never seem to have a problem getting a group together. I truly feel sorry for your pain, but I have to say the only place I have ever seen this shortage is on boards like these. I have suggestions for getting in touch with other gamers but I don't want to seem rude or presumptious, so if you want them please PM me.

#2 So you warn your players not to do something, they do it, and you punish them with a TPK because otherwise you can't have fun? There's no other solution besides a TPK? And if all the players are doing something (and probably think it's a reasonable idea) and you think it's dumb, they're idiots?

Once again ...what I said was:

I don't like TPKs, in fact I hate them, but if after everything I hinted at, all the clues I dropped, the blatant direct "You may want to reconsider that course of action..." after all that if I don't "Bring It", my fun would be ruined, not for that session but for every session after. I don't get off on TPKs unless I somehow managed to pick up a crew of complete idiots to game with.

Why would my fun be ruined...let me think...could it be because from that day on you will always be expected to cave to the players demands no matter how outlandish, ridiculous, or foolish they are. Read all the posts again you might begin to understand where I am coming from with the TPK being a direct result of WAITING FOR THE HTRT to get there. Is that stupid 99.9999% of the time. Heck yes. As a GM you are there to help bring a world to life for the players, and a world without consequences is just a case of being there to help them with their mental masturbation. Lastly to answer your question I have had nothing but good things come out of TPK's and character deaths in small doses. The last time I actually had a TPK was in 1993, the campaign following that quick cluster lasted over 3000 gaming hours in a two year period. You know why because they knew I was going to deliver a real challenge, and if they screwed up bad enough they would pay dearly. So they did their best not to screw up, and the hammer did not fall.

#3 SR tends to throw new players because the violence is a lot more brutal and it requires much more stealth and subtlety than D&D or a lot of common RPGs. The only players I've seen who quickly adjust to the SR mindset are Trail/Call of Cthulu players.

1. You are the only person talking about new players.
2. The violence in SR is no more brutal than any other RPG.
3. SR does require more stealth or subtlety than D&D unless your GM makes it so.
4. Any RPG requires stealth or subtlety if the GM makes it so.
5. I have taken complete RP newbies and turned them into hardcore gamers.

Your problem is that you are applying the same kind of exclusivity I used to see Vampire players pull. Many of my players have also been D&D only gamers, and now they play just about anything. The second you realize it is just a game, and not THE GAME, you will be a lot better off.

[Faelan]

I'm not sure we're disagreeing on principles so much as degrees. Here's the gear I usually use for low-level HRT teams, UCAS soldiers, etc.

Ware: Military Suite
Muscle Replacement III 15,000 3.0
Wired Reflexes I 11,000 2.0
5.0*1.2*0.9=5.94
26,000*0,5*0.9=11,700
Armor: 24,100
Softweave Medium Military Armor with Helmet, Vision Magnification, Vision Enhancement 3, and Thermographic.
Weapon: 3,865
Ares Alpha with Stock, Gas Vent 3, Shock Pad, and Airburst Link.
Recoil: 7
Ammo: 100 rounds of ADPS
Micro Grenades: 3 Flash Bangs, 3 High Explosive.
Total: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 43,665

You realize you are using retail costs. The cost for the Megacorp that makes them is should we say less. Training the personnel is the biggest expense, not the gear.

In general, I would encourage the use of used cyberware suites. It makes sense that companies would be able to afford their own customized cyberware suites for troops, making them used decreases cost greatly and enforces the uniformity/disposable nature of corpsec.
That's well below what a Sam can do but they can survive a lot and dish out a fair bit of damage with automatics/heavy weapons of 4.

Corpsec is disposable if you want your bodyguard to turn on you at the worst time. They are disposable, but it sure as hell is not done lightly. These guys are not some worker drones in the factory.

In D&D, a good session has you kill everything because the game very carefully sets out level appropriate encounters.

If you are a beginner sure, and after the first few sessions the experienced GM does not use CR or level appropriate encounters, or better yet is not using anything later than 2nd Edition , I know I am a grognard...whatever.

In SR, a good session is where you don't kill anyone because the planning was just that good.

If you are playing a mirrorshades game.

There's a big mindset switch involved there.

Not really. It is entirely dependent on the GM to set the mood, and present the themes. If that is the kind of game he wants he will do it regardless of system.

How many newbie groups have you seen or heard of with the psychotic Sam who threatens or tries to kill everything?

Not many actually. Most people realize that if you threaten to kill a stone cold killer he is likely to kill you the second your back is turned. It is kind of common sense.

[PoliteMan]

Oh, and for those who argue penny-turning accountants: really now?
What do you presume just one year-long research project is worth?
How's about when it nears reaching fruition in a couple years?
How's about its lead researcher, who can lead these this well as long as we keep up the leonisation treatment?
How's about a facility that houses several of these projects on varying scales?
How's about several of these facilities?

Security isn't just HRT though. Corporate Download (SR3) had an interesting section where they broke each corp down by a number of factors. We'll drop PR and Black Ops, because they're not really applicable, so that leaves:
Intelligence (because if you know they're coming, they're not a threat)
Counter-Intelligence (because the more they know about you, the less secure you are)
Efficiency (Because if it takes command fifteen minutes to analyze the intrusion and decide to dispatch HRT, it doesn't matter how fast HRT is, the shadowrunners are already gone).
Physical Security
Matrix Security
Magical Security

Let's add HRT as a seventh group (normally I'd put them in Physical Security, with some support from Magical and Matrix, but this gives them a lot more money and reflects a corp that really values it's HRT).

Now take a billion nuyen research lab. This corp has decided to spend 20% of it's budget on security (pretty high, all things considered, they haven't even hired anybody or built/bought the site)
So that's 200 million nuyen for security.
Split that evenly among all the departments, that's about 28.5 million nuyen for HRT.
Say there's only 30 HRT members, enough to guard that facility round the clock but other facilities will need to chip in if they want HRT coverage.

Now consider that 5 million for Alphaware Wired Reflexes III. Would you include that in the team? You still need to hire elite troops, buy the rest of their ware, equipment, transport, etc. For me, that's a maybe, leaning towards yes. Which is how it should be, a corp which spends a lot of money on security, and a lot of money on their HRT, would probably spring for that extra boost at a very important facility. Ares or Renraku probably would. But this is giving the HRT a huge cut of the budget and every other department (Matrix Security, Counter Intelligence, etc) has about 4.5 million nuyen less than than their equivalent competitor. Is that tradeoff worth it? Is your facility more secure if you have a stronger HRT team and weaker Matrix Security, or Intelligence, or any of the other factors?

This comes back to my original point. In the security for any installation, there's so many different groups doing so much different stuff, the only way HRT gets their great gear is other groups suffer serious cuts. Everyone is going to focus on different things. Some corps will go heavy on HRT, like Ares and Renraku, and others are going to focus on different areas.

Sticking around for the HTRT should likely result in TPK, especially with new players.

Going back to the OP. I think the dividing line here is whether HRT implies superior tactics/gear to the PCS, resulting in a TPK, or if HRT implies equal/slightly below PC level tactics and gear, resulting in a brutal fight where the PCs can make a tactical retreat (or just run away screaming). I tend towards the later and I think that's where your original build was. I wouldn't encourage you to increase it to automatic TPK levels for three reasons.
#1 I don't think it's realistic. The logistics, the economics, the corporate policy, only a few corps are realistically going to devote those kind of resources to their HRT teams.
#2 No one likes TPKs. Why would you increase the odds that the team is gonna get wiped out by one player's temporary stupidity when a weaker HRT will get the exact same effect (the PCs running)?
#3 Each corp is different and that's half the fun of it. Some corps should have strong HRT teams, some should have weak ones. Other corps should have excellent Matrix security, or Magical security, or something so every corp is a bit different.

I'm not quite sure where this is going at this point. I fell like I've gone over these points a couple times and I don't see anyone changing their minds. *shrug*

Mike, I would recommend using the cybersuite rules for you corp HRT team though.

[toturi]

As I see it, players have 2 primary options in dealing with HRT (or its alphabet soup cousins),
1) Force
2) Finesse

Either you have enough force to go through the HRT or you have enough finesse to make the HRT irrelevant. Users of force tend to be labelled "Pink Mohawk", users of finesse "Mirror Shades/Black Trenchcoat". I do not advocate either approach in my games, both are equally valid and players have to adapt and base their response on the merits of the situation. Sometimes it will be (in that I as the GM think it is) better to use brute force. Sometimes finesse works better.

What I do stress to my players is that whatever path they choose for their characters, they had better make sure they are really good at it. If you are using force, be sure to be able to take down the security response. If you choose finesse, make sure you can (and enable your team mates to) avoid detection.

[Blitz66]

As you know, PoliteMan, I had some of the same objections you state in your post, and I think they're perfectly reasonable still. What got me reconciled (enough) to Faelan's POV was just a shift in emphasis.

You're still reading it as I initially was. "Sticking around for the HTRT should likely result in TPK" Which makes HTR the big issue. Try reading it this way. "Sticking around for the HTRT should likely result in TPK" Sticking around on-site means that you're going to get surrounded by security personnel of some sort. If you're surrounded by a police barricade, are you screwed because SWAT is on its way, or because you're surrounded by a police barricade and they can keep bringing in resources all day long and there's not a thing you can do to stop them or get away? And if you're not penned in on-site, what are you doing hanging out for so long that HTR showed up? You should be long gone!

If HTR didn't exist, you'd still be screwed, because they'll call in reinforcements from somewhere, and you don't want to be there, whether it's more security just like the rest, the Village People, or the Avengers, because a small special ops style team stuck in enemy territory with no way out is just not looking at a happy ending. If you're not gone before it becomes an issue, then you're dead.

[PoliteMan]

Blitz:
I have to admit, that's persuasive, although that's not the vibe I'm getting from Faelan. Maybe I'm just misreading him.

I'd still rather go for HRT not being a TPK because you can get some epic moments out of it.

Say we're on a run, five minutes from the target, and someone screws up, fails a infiltration roll, forgets to erase the Access Log, or just does something dumb. HRT is on it's way.

If HRT is a TPK, then we make a quick calculation. If we can make it to the target and back out with some leeway time, then we go for it. If not we run for it. Done, failed, 'cause there's no point in trying to fight HRT.

If HRT isn't a TPK, then we "get dangerous". The Sam pulls out his "special occasions" gun; the Mage starts looking up the overcasting rules; the Face drops Kamikaze, Cram, and Jazz; the Hacker preps the system crashing worm/virus; and Rigger gets ready to drive through a wall with his "tank" to get us out once we've got the target. It's fragging GO time. It's gonna cost us, we're gonna be shooting it out with the best, just trying to get away, and there's a good chance one of us will die. At best, the corp is gonna be scouring the city for whoever shot up their prize facility and we're gonna be eating rats for a month. But there's still a chance.

If HRT is a TPK, then the run is ten minutes from done, one way or another. If HRT isn't a TPK, then the run is ten minutes away from epic.

[Blitz66]

PoliteMan, I was just trying to reconcile the argument, but wow. I like the cut of your jib. Sounds like the GM has decided that finesse only works part of the time, and the only way to win this one is to either walk away or let your hair get tall, linear, and a light reddish color - and every once in a while, that can be cool as hell.

I'm definitely in agreement that HTR shouldn't be a definite TPK. Probably going to be a death or two in the scenario you describe, but if the payoff is good enough, it just might be time to roll the dice.

[Faelan]

Blitz:
I have to admit, that's persuasive, although that's not the vibe I'm getting from Faelan. Maybe I'm just misreading him.

For the most part you are.

I'd still rather go for HRT not being a TPK because you can get some epic moments out of it.

Sure you can get epic moments out of it, the problem is when? You keep talking about new players, which in my mind means new characters, which to me = TPK. Think of it as a sliding scale where Newbies have zero margin for error, and Prime Runners have a shitload of margin for error, but regardless if you WAIT for them to get there and get surrounded, numbers will eventually tell the tale. If yo WAIT for HTRT they set the OODA loop, if you are doing something other than waiting like trying to get away you begin to get into their OODA loop. The better you are the better you will be at doing that increasing your survival chances.

Say we're on a run, five minutes from the target, and someone screws up, fails a infiltration roll, forgets to erase the Access Log, or just does something dumb. HRT is on it's way.

If HRT is a TPK, then we make a quick calculation. If we can make it to the target and back out with some leeway time, then we go for it. If not we run for it. Done, failed, 'cause there's no point in trying to fight HRT.

If HRT isn't a TPK, then we "get dangerous". The Sam pulls out his "special occasions" gun; the Mage starts looking up the overcasting rules; the Face drops Kamikaze, Cram, and Jazz; the Hacker preps the system crashing worm/virus; and Rigger gets ready to drive through a wall with his "tank" to get us out once we've got the target. It's fragging GO time. It's gonna cost us, we're gonna be shooting it out with the best, just trying to get away, and there's a good chance one of us will die. At best, the corp is gonna be scouring the city for whoever shot up their prize facility and we're gonna be eating rats for a month. But there's still a chance.

If HRT is a TPK, then the run is ten minutes from done, one way or another. If HRT isn't a TPK, then the run is ten minutes away from epic.

That is all fine and dandy but epicness is always salted by how easy it was. If that happens for a bunch of new inexperienced characters, it is not epic, it is Monty Haul. If it is for a group of experienced veterans, then it is pretty friggin epic. It would not be epic if it were not a real threat, and it cannot be a real threat if a TPK is not in the cards at all. Whether it is or not in fact as long as the players believe it is, and I just don't see how many times you can smoke and mirror it without ever delivering. I mean at least a serious stay in the hospital.

[suoq]

For the most part you are.

As far as I can tell, you're getting killed by your own hyperbole.

I realize on dumpshock as well as much of the rest of the internet, that in order to state a case, one often feels they must overstate a case. That being said, lets take a second and look at how this got started:

If they are flying in they will secure the perimeter, cover avenues of approach and escape, with fire, personnel, or mechanical assets. This includes air, ground, water, and underground routes. They will do so as quietly as possible, and utilize any video feeds to prioritize targets. Your runner team has to leave the facility at some point, and when it does the highest threat individual is taking a .50 caliber Raufoss round to the grape.

Here is the situation as you have painted it.
1) You've explained the shadowrun team has no chance to escape.
2) You've explained the shadowrun team is likely to not know the response team is out there.
3) You've explained that the shadowrun team will find out about the threat when their "highest threat individual is taking a .50 caliber Raufoss round to the grape".

You then start claiming a bunch of IRL experience, which quite honestly, I doubt anyone cares about. Those that do believe you should at least realize that shadowrun has nothing to do with real life and more than an action film does. But moving on.

I would not hit them in the facility, they have to leave, they are getting ambushed, and I have no problem giving an HRT team whatever they need to remain undetected.
...
Once again if HRT shows up you are screwed, and if you are not the GM is simply not running them as a threat.

So you confirm what you said above. if the characters are detected and HRT shows up, the characters are screwed and from the description of surrounded and sniper shots, that certainly sounds like a TPK to me.

OK. So the characters need to be undetected or know that they've been detected and get out before HRT shows up.

The run that never gets detected never happens. You will get detected the question is when.

Nevermind. They need to know that they've been detected and get out before HRT shows up

Having a team of these within 10 minutes essentially means in Shadowrun that you have a team like this covering a roughly sixty mile radius of a major metropolis.

So the HRT can move at an average of 360 miles per hour and get ready while doing so. The characters IF they know they've been detected have 10 minutes to wipe their traces and clear the facility past the perimeter that will be set up. And wiping all traces is necessary because

If they have not captured them, other teams will begin a manhunt, forensics units will arrive, and everything will be documented. If the Shadowrunnners did things right they go on the lam and disappear in the night because they were already gone, when the HTRT got there.

So, what you've painted for everyone, is essentially, an unwinnable scenario. Something I believe most people playing a role playing game have no interest in. There is no character growth here, there is only

buy a cemetery lot because you will likely need it in the near future.

If you don't understand why, as written, this doesn't sound like fun or good advice for a new GM then there's not much anyone can do to change your mind. Please understand that the "Not Fun" reaction people are having is going to cause them to disagree with you. They then have to say something before some new GM thinks they agree with you and employes the same level of severity you employ at their table. I'm all for a kick-ass HRT team, but I'm also for the players coming up with a solution and pulling it off. I'm there to create an exciting story with them, not run a brutal simulation that demands perfection. If you want to call that "Monty Haul" feel free. It wouldn't be the first time in this thread you've looked down on the people who disagree with you.

[PoliteMan]

But if you always default to TPKs, there's no room to improvise, no room to create cool scenes, there's "escaped alive" or "dead". If HRT doesn't mean a automatic TPK, there's tons of room to improvise, as a GM you have a million different options, your players have intentionally put themselves in a very difficult situation and they're expecting danger and consequences. You're free to think up any nasty consequences you want.

It's not (at least hopefully) like PCs hear "HRT inbound" and think "Well, time to get a cup of coffee". They're not just sitting around like morons; they're trying to achieve the mission, even though they know their odds are dropping by the minute. Maybe they need to finish this mission or they don't eat next month, maybe they hate corp X and they're willing to risk death to hurt them, maybe they just have a string of bad rolls. Do these things deserve a TPK?

There's a ton of space between TPK and Monty Haul campaigns. Individual players can die, they can lose limbs, their cyberware can be damaged or destroyed, they can be captured, they can escape but they're indebted to an NPC who drives the next mission, they can become the most wanted men in Seattle, etc. The GM has a huge amount of leeway, you can basically write the next session just based off the consequences of this run. Why would a GM intentionally limit himself to TPKs just for a "challenge" factor.

Because SR isn't a tactical simulator. Quite frankly, if all I wanted was a tactical challenge I'd go play a video game, or a wargame, or a different RPG. Of all the RPGs to use as a "challenging" system for players, why would you pick SR, a system infamous on these boards for imbalances and rule absurdities? We come for the story and the more options the GM has to craft his part of the story, the better it's likely to be. If HRT surrounds the players and you have to choose between a TPK and continuing the story, why would you automatically choose a TPK just for a challenge in a system that is blatantly not good at tactical simulations.

Finally, if there's anything that's going to depress new players, it's a TPK. It kills the story, because the PCs are integral to the story, and it has a tendency to punish new players more heavily because they don't know how to build characters. An optimized character out of chargen is likely to beat a sample character with 100 Karma. I honestly can't imagine dropping a TPK on a bunch of players still trying to learn to scan for nodes because they didn't run the moment HRT got called in.

Why would you limit yourself to TPKs when there's so many other fun and evil options to explore. I just don't get it, especially because SR is a poor "challenging" tactical game.

Edit (Slightly long):
Finally, while obliterating Anonymous Guard #3 silently with over whelming firepower is very "smart", eventually the players are gonna want more. The Sam wants to shoot it out with the Red Samurai, the Mage wants to face down greater spirits and master mages, the Rigger wants crazy chases with helicoptors and motorcycles and explosions, the Hacker wants to storm the unbreakable node and crash the system. At some point they're going to want to fight the elites, not the grunts, because those are the epic experiences we remember. Those are the climaxes of the story. And HRT is a great way to provide that, to create those memorable moments; you can't do that, however, if HRT is a TPK.

[Kliko]

Use an intermediary Fast Response Team for that.

Think lowly-paid orks choppering in with gel-round fed machine guns for clearing the facility, think drones for suppresive fire, think some nice shooting action for the players (which is at least fun for the street sam). Think smoke grenades, tear gas grenades, think action!

They still hang out for say more than 2-3 hours? Get the Corporate HTR, make it a challenge but offer a way out. Players screw up, ok. It happens, but remember whatever playing style you and the players prefer (make sure beforehand you're on the same level), the game is supposed to be fun!