The second session..., .. in which things get worse Options

[UmaroVI]

Then let them get bored of it, and when they're ready to turn over a new leaf, you can do a more Mirror Shades game without having to fight them over it.

[Faelan]

True, they could do that. It all depends on the game, but honestly, I think I would get bored of Pink Mohawk after a few sessions.

I would also, of course I would also tire of a mirror shades game. At least for me Shadowrun requires a careful balance between the two, because both break down at a point. Pink Mohawk assumes you can blow everything up, and mirror shades assumes you can finesse past everything, neither is accurate in reality, and neither is truly fun as a play style. They both carry certain conceits which require a GM to ignore major aspects of the setting for them to work.

[HunterHerne]

I would also, of course I would also tire of a mirror shades game. At least for me Shadowrun requires a careful balance between the two, because both break down at a point. Pink Mohawk assumes you can blow everything up, and mirror shades assumes you can finesse past everything, neither is accurate in reality, and neither is truly fun as a play style. They both carry certain conceits which require a GM to ignore major aspects of the setting for them to work.

That's true, there does have to be a balance.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would also, of course I would also tire of a mirror shades game. At least for me Shadowrun requires a careful balance between the two, because both break down at a point. Pink Mohawk assumes you can blow everything up, and mirror shades assumes you can finesse past everything, neither is accurate in reality, and neither is truly fun as a play style. They both carry certain conceits which require a GM to ignore major aspects of the setting for them to work.

Mirror Shades DOES NOT assume that you can finesse past everything. It is just your first choice in the progression of options. When Finesse does not work, you move to more forceful options. Eventually, you may, indeed, have to consider the Brute Force Option. Pink Mohawk, in comparison, assumes that the Brute Force Method Option is the first, and correct, one.

The big difference between the two styles is Consequences. Pink Mohawk has little to no consequences, so going Brute Force is the No-Brainer option. Mirror Shades goes the other route, assuming that the consequences will likely be generated by the characters own actions. In that style of game, you try to get by with the least amount of consequences incurred. Unfortunately, You can not always accomplish an objective sans consequence. They are always there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Faelan]

Mirror Shades DOES NOT assume that you can finesse past everything. It is just your first choice in the progression of options. When Finesse does not work, you move to more forceful options. Eventually, you may, indeed, have to consider the Brute Force Option. Pink Mohawk, in comparison, assumes that the Brute Force Method Option is the first, and correct, one.

Really. They are opposites. Even the Pink Mohawk will resort to finesse if Brute Force does not work, and it will be equally awkward. My comment was a generalization. Your comment seems to be indicating that Mirror Shades is somehow more versatile or better, when in fact they are exact opposites and equally deficient in their method in my opinion. They approach the same problem from the exact opposite end of the spectrum. My generalization is based on the consistent comment that if anyone knows you were there you failed to sufficiently fulfill the goal of the Mirror Shades aesthetic.

The big difference between the two styles is Consequences. Pink Mohawk has little to no consequences, so going Brute Force is the No-Brainer option. Mirror Shades goes the other route, assuming that the consequences will likely be generated by the characters own actions. In that style of game, you try to get by with the least amount of consequences incurred. Unfortunately, You can not always accomplish an objective sans consequence. They are always there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

There are consequences in Pink Mohawk, they just tend to be death, glorious death, and blazing glorious death. Essentially death in varying degrees of obviousness.

[HunterHerne]

Mirror Shades DOES NOT assume that you can finesse past everything. It is just your first choice in the progression of options. When Finesse does not work, you move to more forceful options. Eventually, you may, indeed, have to consider the Brute Force Option. Pink Mohawk, in comparison, assumes that the Brute Force Method Option is the first, and correct, one.

The big difference between the two styles is Consequences. Pink Mohawk has little to no consequences, so going Brute Force is the No-Brainer option. Mirror Shades goes the other route, assuming that the consequences will likely be generated by the characters own actions. In that style of game, you try to get by with the least amount of consequences incurred. Unfortunately, You can not always accomplish an objective sans consequence. They are always there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Even so, sometimes a player wants to feel like he can do something without consequences. I allow these kinds of things, however controlled.

Most of my groups have been done through Skype IM, which I find to be incredibly helpful to my GMing style (I liketo withhold information from players that shouldn't learn it unless the player tells them. Can make for interesting dynamics. I also don't like bogging down other players with over excessive reading/waiting when another player does something that doesn't impact the group.) In one case, I had a secret tournament, kind of an underground urban brawl, where one team is on the defence, and the other is offence. I only had three characters that were primarily combat characters, so I had them (and only them) compete. They lost in the second round (the mage couldn't make it to the match, for in game reasons, and out of games. Left them a little gimped against a Jewish Loup-garou spider mage, and a wolf shapeshifter phys adept. There was a third but, he was sniping, just in case)

[hyphz]

MAdrax has teh right of it..

Maybe as a group they hadn't recognised the difference between Shadowrun and D&D - Shadowrun has instant communication and wide-reaching law. Their violent actions have long reaching consequences.

You have a group of characters who have committed atrocities - outright murder, torture, mutilation of corpses etc etc AND who have given the authorities ample opportunity to gather pictures and audio of them and their vehicle.

Well, I mean I guess this is sort of where I have trouble because I'm just not sure what the correct balance for these sort of things is. (Oh, and by the way, I looked up Horizon in Corporate Guide last night and there's no mention of a Shangri-La so I have no idea where they're linked to now.) I mean, let's look at what I have so far:

- Driving around in a turreted vehicle. Yes, they're going to have trouble with this, but it'd probably be more of a warning than a total bust since they are still learning the game, after all.

- Ripping the cyberware out of dead guys. I'm not at all sure about this because while it's clearly unpleasant, the books make it clear that this is totally a thing. I might rule that the kind of cyberware you get out of mook corpers and random gangers isn't going to be worth much because the big legger gangs can easily just kidnap someone like that, hack their 'ware off alive and drop it in the deep freeze to order - rather than having to scrape the rotting dead flesh out of a cyberarm that's been in someone's car for a few days.

- Zod mutilating/torturing the surrendered guys. Now, the fact he killed guys who had surrendered is obviously something that'll get out (he was hoping to stop them telling anyone, of course). But honestly, I'm really thinking about handwaving the other stuff under the Feng Shui rule - in other words, saying that basically all he did was kill them, but happened to add some flavor, and stopping him adding that flavor doesn't really benefit anything. The tone seemed that he was going for the old action movie thing where the final kill of a combat is ridiculously contrived and followed by a payoff line, and while he might seem that he's acting more like a villain than a hero, that's just because in an actual film the entire fight and situation can be choreographed from the beginning to make sure it ends with it being Totally All Right for the hero to chop a guy in half down the middle with a chainsaw or dump him in a cryogenics tank and decapitate him.

- Blowing away the gangers in the doorway who were unarmed. Obviously a rather over-the-top response, and it'll get them a rep. They could have probably negotiated or intimidated their way past, but if the players are spoiling for a rumble it seems kind of lame of me to have the enemies just cave as soon as a weapon comes out, even if that's what they would do.

- Killing the Shangri-La guys - honestly, I can't see this as psycho, all that much. They were obviously armed and, they deduced, likely to be using lethal force on someone they were trying to protect. Ok, opening fire on the unarmed guy first on the grounds that he must be a mage could certainly lead to bad results, but in this case they were actually right.

- Kidnapping Loomis. I think they really didn't think this one through at all..

- Not being in disguise. This is another question. Is it generally reasonable to assume that ANYONE who has a DNI'd commlink will have dropped a free action at some point to tell someone big about what's going on? It seems reasonable but whether or not it leads to a fun game, I'm not sure. I guess the real issue is that looking ahead, the only difference it would make is that someone makes a Disguise roll before the team sets out.

What I've actually done is to write to the players to confirm that they actually enjoyed having their PCs doing what they did in that session - as opposed to just doing it because it seemed to be what they "had" to do in the situation - so I can get an idea of how to spin this.

[UmaroVI]

Well, I mean I guess this is sort of where I have trouble because I'm just not sure what the correct balance for these sort of things is. (Oh, and by the way, I looked up Horizon in Corporate Guide last night and there's no mention of a Shangri-La so I have no idea where they're linked to now.) I mean, let's look at what I have so far:

Let me give you my take on the various parts. I have no idea who Shangri-La are so I can't help you there.

- Driving around in a turreted vehicle. Yes, they're going to have trouble with this, but it'd probably be more of a warning than a total bust since they are still learning the game, after all.

This one, honestly, I would just explain "F gear is OK, but unconcealable F gear is not," and tell them to mod it into a Concealed turret at the next opportunity. The general rule I go with is R = have a license, F = be able to hide it, be aware you can't take it everywhere.

- Ripping the cyberware out of dead guys. I'm not at all sure about this because while it's clearly unpleasant, the books make it clear that this is totally a thing. I might rule that the kind of cyberware you get out of mook corpers and random gangers isn't going to be worth much because the big legger gangs can easily just kidnap someone like that, hack their 'ware off alive and drop it in the deep freeze to order - rather than having to scrape the rotting dead flesh out of a cyberarm that's been in someone's car for a few days.

So the whole "mutilating corpses for cyberware" thing is perfectly reasonable to do, but will get you a bad rep. I would suggest letting them do it, but (a) Don't let them sell it for too much of its value. 30% is the base price, -20% for used, -20% for stolen, -10% for used in a crime, and Secondhand Cyber is only worth half price anyways (the essence hit), so that's 7.5% of the "full value." I would also advise your PCs that this is in-universe considered pretty reprehensible, and that they'll get Notoriety for fencing, ahem, "recently liberated" cyberware. But do let them sell it and take the notoriety if they want.

- Zod mutilating/torturing the surrendered guys. Now, the fact he killed guys who had surrendered is obviously something that'll get out (he was hoping to stop them telling anyone, of course). But honestly, I'm really thinking about handwaving the other stuff under the Feng Shui rule - in other words, saying that basically all he did was kill them, but happened to add some flavor, and stopping him adding that flavor doesn't really benefit anything. The tone seemed that he was going for the old action movie thing where the final kill of a combat is ridiculously contrived and followed by a payoff line, and while he might seem that he's acting more like a villain than a hero, that's just because in an actual film the entire fight and situation can be choreographed from the beginning to make sure it ends with it being Totally All Right for the hero to chop a guy in half down the middle with a chainsaw or dump him in a cryogenics tank and decapitate him.

Shadowrunners don't have to be heroes. Here, you might give them Notoriety, but I would instead be inclined to have the consequences be the guy coming back with cyberware as a fun recurring villain.

- Blowing away the gangers in the doorway who were unarmed. Obviously a rather over-the-top response, and it'll get them a rep. They could have probably negotiated or intimidated their way past, but if the players are spoiling for a rumble it seems kind of lame of me to have the enemies just cave as soon as a weapon comes out, even if that's what they would do.

Honestly, I'm not sure about this one. Yeah, it sucks for the gangers, but they WERE gangers. I can see the rest of the gang being out for revenge, sure, but I don't think this one deserves further consequences. Looking at the Notoriety table, "killing unarmed gangers instead of being humane to them" doesn't really rank up there with "forget returning that Orphanage's money. Let the brats starve."

- Killing the Shangri-La guys - honestly, I can't see this as psycho, all that much. They were obviously armed and, they deduced, likely to be using lethal force on someone they were trying to protect. Ok, opening fire on the unarmed guy first on the grounds that he must be a mage could certainly lead to bad results, but in this case they were actually right.

I see no problem with this one either.

- Kidnapping Loomis. I think they really didn't think this one through at all..

I agree. I would suggest having something go wrong - in this case, they forgot to take his commlink, so he calls for help. That sounds like perfectly good consequences, and maybe next time they'll be smarter about kidnapping.

- Not being in disguise. This is another question. Is it generally reasonable to assume that ANYONE who has a DNI'd commlink will have dropped a free action at some point to tell someone big about what's going on? It seems reasonable but whether or not it leads to a fun game, I'm not sure. I guess the real issue is that looking ahead, the only difference it would make is that someone makes a Disguise roll before the team sets out.

I think this one really depends. If you want the PCs to wear disguises when doing stuff like this, just tell them "Yo, going on murder sprees without a disguise will get you killed. You should start wearing disguises" and they will probably do it. You can also just assume they are doing stuff like putting on masks for stuff like this. But you don't HAVE to run shadowrun like that.

What I've actually done is to write to the players to confirm that they actually enjoyed having their PCs doing what they did in that session - as opposed to just doing it because it seemed to be what they "had" to do in the situation - so I can get an idea of how to spin this.

This is a good idea.

[HunterHerne]

Give them a news feed, telling about the massive slaughter of gang members and hard working Corp employees, as has been said. Let them have warning and see what they do.

Once the run is over, give them the apropriate Notoriety ratings, especially Zod. It sounds like he's racking up quite the reputation, and maybe people don't want to work with him anymore, except on really dangerous jobs (ghouls, maybe a crazy dragon lairing in the city, or even sending him on tail chasers as the distraction)

If they don't let loomis go, the consequences should be apropriate. If I remember the run (gone through it once as a player, never GM'd), Loomis is at least a little connected to the Jet Black Band. That could get seriously bad for Zod and the rest.

While there choice may not have been tactically sound, if you didn't give them reason to suspect he wasn't a mage, then let them get away with it. As long as he wasn't bound and gaged, it shouldn't be punished.

Blowing away the gangers might be a bit over board, but they had reason, since they showed up as enemies on the spell. I would maybe give them a point of notoriety for jumping the gun there.

Organ-legging and cyber harvesting, I would give them the low end, and be aware that the Fixer/Fence they go through takes a cut (usually 5% per connection rating of what the price ends up being). At the same time, I think a point of notoriety for how brutally they did it should be in order, too.

[Manunancy]

It feels your players have some quite a bit of a 'kill them all and loot the bodies' mindest - probably carried over from D&D. that's going to bring them some troubles if they keep piling corpses that way. Especially mutilated corpses, or which have been killed with a bullet to the back of the head.

It might not get them into immediate trouble, but odds are they'll start piling up a repute for that sort of crap. At which points their prosective employers are likely to think twice before giving them anything where a low profile is desirable. On a morale meter, odds are the jobs will start sinking too - from theft and information gathering toward wetwork, destruction of assets down to mass murder and the like. If you're known as a butcher, expect to get a butcher's work...

A remar about the car's turrets : replacing them with popups ones will be a tremendous help for inserting the vehicle into law-abiding locations, otherwise they can expect to have police drones keeping a close watch on them. And the cops dropping on them like a ton of bricks if something untoward happens to the drones.

[Glyph]

Honestly, the violence, in and of itself, should not be that big of a deal. They got in a fight with armed, hostile people, and happened to win. Be sure to stress to them, though, as something their characters would know, that similar tactics against a corporate facility, which can call upon reinforcements, will get them killed. Violent exfiltration after being discovered is one thing, but going in guns blazing will just get them to lock down the facility and call in heavy backup.

Going around without disguises was dumb, but probably something newbies wouldn't think of - not for day-to-day wandering around. Let their faces get on the news, and have them each plunk a grand or two of their pay to get new faces (and, if you're feeling generous, you can rule that their IDs can be altered for their new faces for a similar fee, rather than requiring them to get brand new ones); it can be a lesson for next time.

Cyberware harvesting, as has been said, should give them notoriety and squick even some of their underworld contacts and fellow runners out. Also, if none of them have any skills related to harvesting cyberware, then have the fixer look at these half-rotted limbs in disgust, and say there's nothing salvageable there. Although fencing cyberware should not usually be that lucrative.

Some of the things they did were a bit over the top, and the mutilated guy and the friends/survivors of the gang will probably be coming after the runners at some point. I would say, do it as more action, rather than "punishing" the players. But it will still let them know that there are consequences to their actions.

The "Mad Max" car, flat out tell them that until the guns, turrets, and such are hidden, driving it anywhere but the Barrens, or areas nearly as bad, will get them busted in no time. Shadowrunners and gangers exist at all in this ubiquitous surveillance society because of information glut, data balkanization, and the continual turf wars and jurisdictional squabbles between the corporations, the city, and other interests. But even so, a car-tank bristling with obvious weapons is like walking down the street with your Kingslayer assault cannon - you'll get a SWAT team called on your ass.

Now, the one mistake they made, forgetting to take their target's commlink - THAT should bite them, hard. At the least, have another corporate strike team, a tougher one this time, show up for another running gun battle.

[Mardrax]

Well, I mean I guess this is sort of where I have trouble because I'm just not sure what the correct balance for these sort of things is. (Oh, and by the way, I looked up Horizon in Corporate Guide last night and there's no mention of a Shangri-La so I have no idea where they're linked to now.) I mean, let's look at what I have so far:

Shangri-La is just described in On the Run, and is a subsidiary of Horizon. Basically a record label that specialises in new talent. Triple As tend to have subsidiaries like a devilrat has flees, and you have hairs on your head. What you find described are just the big ones, the important ones, the ones important for existing fluff, or just plot hooks. If you or anyone else wants more, something's made up that fits into the crop theme, like in this instance. Make stuff up as you go along and information needs arise.

- Ripping the cyberware out of dead guys. I'm not at all sure about this because while it's clearly unpleasant, the books make it clear that this is totally a thing. I might rule that the kind of cyberware you get out of mook corpers and random gangers isn't going to be worth much because the big legger gangs can easily just kidnap someone like that, hack their 'ware off alive and drop it in the deep freeze to order - rather than having to scrape the rotting dead flesh out of a cyberarm that's been in someone's car for a few days.

It's not only unpleasant, it'll be worth virtually nothing, if only due to the modifiers mentioned by UmaroIV. You're going to need at least some Cybertechnology skill in order to salvage anything useful of a cyberarm. And recycling Wired Reflexes? Yeah, no. Too small, too invasive, too pervasive. Short of dropping the body off at a very skilled doc in its entirety, and having him work for far more hours than it's worth, you're not going to get it out. Plus, remember that these bodies have just been fired at by machine guns on full burst. The only character I ever allowed to treat 'ware as loot was a highly trained (Biotech group 5) 'ware 'surgeon himself, who actually had a Day Job in a shadow clinic. And he didn't cash in on them, as much as bring the 'ware into the clinic as a favor. Anyone else would probably get the value of a few kilos of titanium and optic chips from me. Minus "this stuff was in someone you perforated with your White Knight, and you're expecting me to /sell/ this?" charges.

[ Spoiler ]

Oh, and the doc was in fact looked upon as a borderline psycho by most of the party. Both ingame and out. Characters had increasing spurts of being very loathe to talk to him, and silent, awkward stares on rides home. He was great at the multitude of things he did, which was all they kept him on for.

It didn't get any better either when he was slowly revealed to be a Technomancer (this was running fairly parallel to the Emergence plotline), and he started freaking people out more, before saving them by having a Machine Sprite aid in operating the getaway boat.
I loved him, myself.

Also, who's actually going to sell them? I doubt most fixers would be happy if you came up to them, asking to sell this kind of stuff. Like a whole lot of runners are against pure wetwork, most people will be against you showing up on their doorstep with half a dead body. Especially if it's part of a corpsec citizen, and might just as well have a tracking chip in it, or whatever kind of stuff they put in there to keep their wageslaves under control. These aren't just people, they're an investment. And the investment bears protecting.

On a sidenote: you're having violent, really noisy combat in a corner of a city lawless enough to allow these guys to run free with ther Mad Max truck? You do know machinegun fire sounds like a dinner bell to the pack of feral ghouls that must be haunting the neighbourhood, right? See how happy they are to take time to perform field surgery after being jumped by a handful.

Seriously though, the looting mindset is one more groups deal with. Generally, it can be solved by making sure the players are satisfied with the payment
they get for actually running. Which IMHO means they need to be paid just-not-enough to be able to afford everything they'd want, while earning enough to get by. Also, once they the pittance of what this kind of stuff is worth, compared to the hassle of acquiring it and lugging it around (no Bags of Holding here), they'll tend to stop wanting to take it, like your average 6th level D&D party will not bother about taking anything that's not at least masterwok.
And after all, you're a group of highly trained, professional mercenaries. People who get called 'if no one else can help, and if you can find them.' Going around looting everything worth a dime just detracts from that image IMHO. Some ammo, comlinks (for info and paydata, not worth of the 'links), perhaps a gun or two, (to be used on-site, to avoid associating their own guns with the run) sure. Anything beyond that could, or IMHO even should probably be more hassle than it's worth on most occasions.
It might not be a problem for your group, or for you, but it's something to think and perhaps talk about.

- Zod mutilating/torturing the surrendered guys. Now, the fact he killed guys who had surrendered is obviously something that'll get out (he was hoping to stop them telling anyone, of course). But honestly, I'm really thinking about handwaving the other stuff under the Feng Shui rule - in other words, saying that basically all he did was kill them, but happened to add some flavor, and stopping him adding that flavor doesn't really benefit anything.

Of course. In fact, they're roleplaying, flavor is everything.
Point is, they're roleplaying a bunch of folks exercising quite a lack of moral standard. Which isn't a problem at all, as long as everyone's having fun. Pink mohawk is just as fun as the mirrorshades style you'll see people tout, with the right people. It just means that the world should be treating them as a bunch of folks who habitually engage in behaviour only the most hard edged of criminals will have an easy time condoning.

- Blowing away the gangers in the doorway who were unarmed. Obviously a rather over-the-top response, and it'll get them a rep. They could have probably negotiated or intimidated their way past, but if the players are spoiling for a rumble it seems kind of lame of me to have the enemies just cave as soon as a weapon comes out, even if that's what they would do.

I don't know. A lot of gun-fest loving people I know would be more than pleased with themselves when they a group of tough-acting NPCs cave and run for the safest place they can find once machine gun fire is opened.

- Kidnapping Loomis. I think they really didn't think this one through at all..

Have him call Lone Star from the back of the truck. I wish him luck getting their support if they're actually in the barrens, though. Then again, having him namedrop Horizon in a 'getting killed' context might make them send the cavalry to his aid. Or it might turn them off completely. YMMV either way.
If he doesn't have DNI acces or a subvocal mic though, be sure to give the runners a chance to hear him talking, if they're not speeding somewhere like a gang of guntoting badasses, and drowning him out with engine noise.

- Not being in disguise. This is another question. Is it generally reasonable to assume that ANYONE who has a DNI'd commlink will have dropped a free action at some point to tell someone big about what's going on? It seems reasonable but whether or not it leads to a fun game, I'm not sure. I guess the real issue is that looking ahead, the only difference it would make is that someone makes a Disguise roll before the team sets out.

It's not only reasonable to assume the corp squad has some sort of radio contact back to HQ. It's also reasonable they have biomonitors that start sending out a distress signal once their lights start going out. Not to mention that they have a cameradrone or two flying overhead to keep overwatch. And a bunch of sensor channels being used for a TacNet, which will likely at least be recorded by said drones. A remote spider might even be running security on their network, if not joined by a superior officer as well.

Also, I had a character in my group who emigrated from a different group that had devolved into pink mohawk not due to planning, but due to player boredom with a horrible GM. The same cyberdoc as before offered to give him some reconstructive facial surgery. That might be a way out, since I don't assume Disguise skills are too high, or present at all. It's in Augmentation.

What I've actually done is to write to the players to confirm that they actually enjoyed having their PCs doing what they did in that session - as opposed to just doing it because it seemed to be what they "had" to do in the situation - so I can get an idea of how to spin this.

Sounds like a sound call. If this is what they want to play, and you enjoy it as well, there's no reason to worry at all.
Then again, I get the vibe from you that you'd rather lean more toward the mirrorshade style yourself, so perhaps some thought is required.

I think the main thing to consider is that whatever you do, however you handle things, you're not doing anything to punish the players. Even though you might send characters out who are out to punish their characters. Once you and the players get antagonistic in any way, there's a bigger issue that shouldn't be resolved IC.
I tend to think that before all of those things like providing an entertaining story and whatnot, your job as a GM is to provide your players with a world to play and entertain themselves in. A world that has a measure of internal consistency, and will look, move, act and react in accordance to that. If you're saying this is a dog eat dog, Big Brother is watching you and doesn't give a damn about wether you live or die as long as that isn't conflicting with His desire to make money and let their customers and wageslaves live without your interference kinda world, that's all good, but make it act that way, and how the world looks be in compliance with that. If you want to say gravity works in reverse, that's all good, it's your world. But shoes, tires and tables should probably all be covered in gecko tips.
What I've mentioned is a part of that. Of how I, and a lot of people assume the Shadowrun universe to work. It makes sense from a perspective, and as an extension of how people and organisations work, what they think, believe, what they want, how they go about this. And there's dozens of other scenarios that would make sense as well. And probably a few dozen other ones that do so without resortig to fridge logic. Ideal scenarios for gaming tend to vary between those categories.
If these scenarios diverge from what you had originally envisioned, that's no big deal. With a group like this, you'll likely have to learn to roll with the ruckus they make, more than with what you planned.

As long as you can keep a group (including yourself) entertained, and manage to keep up your collective suspension of disbelief enough to immerse to a level where you want to be, your mission is a success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Playing thugs is fine, if that's what the players want.

However, thugs only really get hired for thug jobs. Which never pay very well.






-k

[Mardrax]

Playing thugs is fine, if that's what the players want.

However, thugs only really get hired for thug jobs. Which never pay very well.

Thugs could easily be hired for high profile jobs, once their rep for wholesale massacre spreads. Which should pay well enough.
Also, you could always be shipped out to Amazonia or some other front, to perform wholesale massacres for Corp and Country. Where massacres are quite alright, as long as it's their people.

Don't get eaten by the trees though.

[KarmaInferno]

The high profile "thug jobs" usually end up with the thugs dead, though.




-k

[Mardrax]

The high profile "thug jobs" usually end up with the thugs dead, though.

This is why you get additional risk pay: life insurance for those left behind.
Isn't pink mohawk all about bringing down as many people as you can until you up into a blaze of fire though?

[CanRay]

This is why you get additional risk pay: life insurance for those left behind.
Isn't pink mohawk all about bringing down as many people as you can until you up into a blaze of fire though?

Sometimes it's about going through that blaze of fire with the intent on getting through the other side with the big score...

[DMiller]

You said your team has a mage... Your cyber-stealing guy might be able to talk the mage into getting the spell "Turn to Goo", very easy to obtain "used" cyberware without all the yuck factor.

I hope your team doesn't read this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

P.S.
Wired 3 should net about 15,000 without the fixer/fence taking a cut.

[Glyph]

Except that the spell doesn't turn the victim into watery slop, but into a "sticky, glue-like substance" - which sounds like something it would be harder to extract any 'ware from, especially the hyper-delicate micro-circuitry of things like wired reflexes.

[Wiseman]

Well, this is what wearing the GM hat is all about. You have to balance the power and fun, and sample adventure be damned. When necessary, step things up, tweak encounters, throw in a monkey wrench.

As I see it though, really all you're dealing with are first experiences of new players. They're going to TRY everything, it's you that has to remind them the difference between a live runner and a dead one comes down to what kind of mess they leave.

I remember back in some D&D article they talked about a dwarf barbarian character of a first time player, that charged into the first fight headlong axe a-swinging. They noted that this experience would forever color the characters actions. If the charge succeeded, the dwarf player would continue to charge every time, but if it failed badly, they'd end up being more cautious.

Right now, your players are looking for you to set the tone and tempo. Forget the rules and the gear and the OTR adventure for a minute. Like children, they're testing boundaries, and you need to be the one to channel those energies into fun.

Is it fun to have players get railroaded, or suffer consequence for every action or slip up? Probably not. But neither is a game where they wheel around like master criminals killing and looting without any fear of being caught fun.

So enough with the lecture, how can you change the tone to create more tension, so that they must consider their actions and worry about their trail?

1) Really play up what happens to sloppy runners. That Yak boss going on and on about how he tortured that last runner that crossed him. News feeds pointing out the latest crack team that slipped up and what happend to them and Lone Star or whatever security agency boasting about how stupid they were. Play up the criminal setting and feed paranoia. Show them bad things DO happen to those who just shoot everyone and hack up bodies. This is a precursor to it happening to them, after all. Have Darius (think that was his name), call them up and ask what the hell they're doing, the Coda fire is all over the news with eye witnesses describing what went down. In short (yea right), turn up the heat.

2) No man is an island. Sure they took the Coda mook's gear, how about a call on that commlink from his kid wondering when dad is coming home? Play up on emotions (even if the runner wouldn't care there is a hopefully non-sociopath player behind him), and even if the sucker hearthrob shit won't work, have one of the mook's give his best dying gypsy curse as his lights are put out, and then play up glitches on the cursed character to color them to being haunted or "marked" (or up his chances to glitch until he makes amends).

3) Chopping up bodies for gear? First off, this is some of the most evil stuff in the game. Organlegging and cyberware repo runs are the stuff of nightmares. So if they want to play on the dark side, introduce them to the real guys who do this for a living... And really, how do they know what all the ware is?, or even how to go about extracting it? Sure a cyberarm is easy, but headware and implanted gear is more than likely to be damaged and useless if they try to dig it out with a screwdriver.

Maybe require them to have some of the relevant skills for surgery, biology, cybertechnology, to even begin making a profit of that junk. And really, hacking up bodies makes a MESS. Play up the point they're now covered in gore and trying to ride past that lonestar patrol. Seen pulp fiction? The mess a bullet to the head makes ain't pretty at point blank. Hacking off limbs and such should require all new clothes.

And the time it would take to do this... I honestly feel you're not playing up the threat of law enough. They should feel pressured to be moving after a massive firefight involving vehicle weapons. Sure the star isn't going to chase every stray gun shot in the barrens, but come on...it's their job to investigate people who shoot up a whole bar, hack up bodies, set the place on fire and kidnap people.. These players aren't even worried about being caught.

Have one of the guys they seized the arm from being the cousin to someone really connected, who shows up to reclaim the arm...no no..not the arm they hacked off, one of the players arms....an eye for an eye.

I get what you're saying about this being more likely at the end of the campaign, but that doesn't mean you can't threaten them. Have word get out that people are looking for them for what they have done, and there is going to be a price to pay eventually.

Bad Rep disadvantage exists for just this reason too!

5) Forget about going easy on the consequences. Killing people IS easy, living with the consequences is what deters most people in times of anger. Fun is them being afraid and thus having to adapt, get smarter, be more creative. Not fun is being afraid to punish them for outright murder because as others have said, at that point you're just rolling dice.

On a last note, how did the SL team in the junkyard not notice him driving around the junkyard in circles... Seems to me they should have had a clue something was up and gotten the drop on the team, not the other way around.

TL;DR - Amp up the pressure that shadowrunners who aren't subtle, don't cover their tracks, and leave a swath of death and destruction don't last long in the shadows. Its the fear that feeds paranoia that feeds the creativity that makes it fun. Without that fear, it's just a bunch of guys playing wild west shoot outs and rolling dice.

My 2 cents!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1) Really play up what happens to sloppy runners. That Yak boss going on and on about how he tortured that last runner that crossed him. News feeds pointing out the latest crack team that slipped up and what happend to them and Lone Star or whatever security agency boasting about how stupid they were. Play up the criminal setting and feed paranoia. Show them bad things DO happen to those who just shoot everyone and hack up bodies. This is a precursor to it happening to them, after all. Have Darius (think that was his name), call them up and ask what the hell they're doing, the Coda fire is all over the news with eye witnesses describing what went down. In short (yea right), turn up the heat.

...

My 2 cents!

There is an Interesting Episode (or two) of Firefly that should drive this theory Home. The Villain is Adelai Niska (First Appeared in the Train Robbery Episode)... Nuff Said...

[Aku]

Wiseman is wise, talking about the fear of the law. One of the strongest (imo) things a GM can say to a group is

"You hear sirens in the area."

Even if they HAVEN'T begun the criminal aspect of the run, this phrase as scared the groups i've gm'd for. Have they been double crossed? was this all a set up to begin with? Most of the times i've done it, it's been some hot shot flying through the streets of seatle with a cop chasing him..but maybe next time they wont be so lucky.

[LurkerOutThere]

Honestly the fact he's posting at all tells me someone isn't having fun: The GM. Saying "As long as the players are having fun" is bull, because then there's no reasons to use canned settings, I can come up with "Murderworld: The rapening" fairly quickly and easily, it's not Shadowrun.

[Mardrax]

Honestly the fact he's posting at all tells me someone isn't having fun: The GM. Saying "As long as the players are having fun" is bull, because then there's no reasons to use canned settings, I can come up with "Murderworld: The rapening" fairly quickly and easily, it's not Shadowrun.

The first rule in any RPG book is 'if you don't like something, by all means, change it.'
With the ammount of house ruling some people have going on, it's barely recognisable as Shadowrun either. Not to mention the divide between the people playing 550 karma gangers, and those who ask "how can I maximise my chances to marry Lofwyr's daughter, kill Lofwyr and inherit S-K?"

To each his own.

But then, 'each' in no way excludes the GM.

[Wiseman]

Honestly the fact he's posting at all tells me someone isn't having fun: The GM. Saying "As long as the players are having fun" is bull, because then there's no reasons to use canned settings, I can come up with "Murderworld: The rapening" fairly quickly and easily, it's not Shadowrun.

I second that. I think he's just too hung up on either not altering the adventure or having the players suffer for their actions.

On the first point, On the Run actually goes into a lot about what happens if the players do stupid things and the consequences. Wait till they go to the "Yellow Lotus" (I think, i'm at work, going off memory) and are actually challenged to be an disrespectful or lose their cool and will FAIL if they resort to violence.

Read ahead to what happens when they act heavy handed with Marli/Maril (?) and mr. vampire rockstar shows up at the end or they end up in the back of a van in the barrens (or worse, it could be a lone star van sans gear). If it was me, being this was a first adventure, I'd let the heat keep piling on and maybe if they're smart, one or two might survive. Bet their next characters have a lot more to say and think before the guns come out.

On the second point, even a beginner adventure like OTR spells out if they do this kind of stuff, let them have it! It says warn them, it says give them an intuition test for advice, it says put up a blinking neon sign, but if they ignore common sense it's time to show them that no matter how big they get, the corps/law/other runners always have bigger guns.

Lastly, those mooks might be just a token resistance, but it doesn't mean they're dumb cannon fodder. Even a low build NPC played smart is way more dangerous than all the gear and BP/Karma you could sink in a stupid acting NPC.

This isn't D&D with guns, in the shadows, one slip up and you're dead (if you're lucky). If a player wants to keep their character, they burn edge onthe hand of god rule and learn something. I honestly feel if you upped the consequences, you'll up the tension and the fun from all the situations that stem from NOT being able to shoot everyone in the head.

Good luck OP! You can do eeeet!

P.S. (What up TJ, you still here huh?!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)