The second session..., .. in which things get worse Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

P.S. (What up TJ, you still here huh?!) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not much going on currently. And Yep, Still here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dr.Rockso]

Oh, sure. I knew they were combat monsters. If they're enjoying it, I'm happy with them playing that way. It's just that working out how to fudge it so that they don't end up with Lone Star impounding their car after somebody heard the frantic knocking coming from the trunk is a bit of a stretch, and if I do (hey, armour 20 could be soundproof, right?) then the game loses a lot of its colour. Every player might as well make their own Zod in that case, and go back to Street lifestyles while they're at it. At the same time, if I don't fudge it, I'm pretty sure the PCs won't want to shoot it out with the police (in fact, Zod's player specifically checked with me that the guys he saw in the junkyard were not police officers) and if they get busted, campaign over. Even if we start another, the players will probably still feel they've been bitchslapped by me for just playing in the way they enjoy, and that would suck.

I also spent a bit of time preparing the combat, hoping that the players would enjoy it, and was just shocked when people started going down in single hits. I had several strategies planned for their Mage and he was toasted before he could act. Plus, if he's going to carry on driving his car off-road into combat encounters, that means I have to either put the other guys in armoured cars too or give them stupidly huge weapons. (Actually, maybe a car chase with an armed Shangrili-La combat vehicle would be a neat thing to throw in at some point in the future). What I guess I'm really afraid of is that it'll become "kill or be killed", so that any combat encounter is either a walkover or results in the death of a PC.

Don't be afraid to bring the law down on them. My van got impounded once in game. The solution? A whole run to liberate my tricked out van. Ended up starting a drug fueled riot and burning down a good block or two of Snohomish, but I got it back. When you close the door on your players, they usually find a window. They then usually break that window, and loot the valuables.

Also, don't be afraid to hurt your players' characters. Get them while they are sleeping, when they're alone, break their things... Also, while your players might be tough, chances are their families aren't. Shangri-La's hard hitters could send the team Grandpa Zods fingers as a message.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't be afraid to bring the law down on them. My van got impounded once in game. The solution? A whole run to liberate my tricked out van. Ended up starting a drug fueled riot and burning down a good block or two of Snohomish, but I got it back. When you close the door on your players, they usually find a window. They then usually break that window, and loot the valuables.

Also, don't be afraid to hurt your players' characters. Get them while they are sleeping, when they're alone, break their things... Also, while your players might be tough, chances are their families aren't. Shangri-La's hard hitters could send the team Grandpa Zods fingers as a message.

Indeed... Make the consequences Hurt when it is appropriate.

My Cyberlogician Character was caught by MCT once (had to surrender or Die), and had almost all of his Cyberware ripped out of him by the by MCT before they threw him in Prison. Sucked, but I made it work out in the end. Not a horrible experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Dreadlord]

Indeed... Make the consequences Hurt when it is appropriate.

My Cyberlogician Character was caught by MCT once (had to surrender or Die), and had almost all of his Cyberware ripped out of him by the by MCT before they threw him in Prison. Sucked, but I made it work out in the end. Not a horrible experience. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Things like being caught or tortured are memorable, and oddly makes that character more fun to roleplay with that kind of history behind him to guide you. Now when you say "he's a hardbitten gunsel" all the players will color in that simple statement with the shared history AS PLAYERS of that event (he might even be the only survivor), and will know WHY that character is what he is.

My best example is not even SR, but Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, where I was playing a novice priest of Sigmar. The GM, in order to allow me to advance to the next "career", had me have a dream that Sigmar came down and anointed me as a full priest. My take on that was, what would YOU do if that happened to you? Dieter became a religious fanatic! It was a blast to play for me, and allowed for some interesting party dynamics and extra plot hooks and moral dilemmas for the GM to play with!

The REAL question is, are the players advanced enough to take on a roleplaying challenge like having VERY bad things happen to their characters, or will they instantly see it only as "GM anvil-dropping"? A lot of it is up to the skill of the GM to tell the story in a realistic way, and still make the VERY BAD THINGS fun as it is happening.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Things like being caught or tortured are memorable, and oddly makes that character more fun to roleplay with that kind of history behind him to guide you. Now when you say "he's a hardbitten gunsel" all the players will color in that simple statement with the shared history AS PLAYERS of that event (he might even be the only survivor), and will know WHY that character is what he is.

My best example is not even SR, but Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, where I was playing a novice priest of Sigmar. The GM, in order to allow me to advance to the next "career", had me have a dream that Sigmar came down and anointed me as a full priest. My take on that was, what would YOU do if that happened to you? Dieter became a religious fanatic! It was a blast to play for me, and allowed for some interesting party dynamics and extra plot hooks and moral dilemmas for the GM to play with!

The REAL question is, are the players advanced enough to take on a roleplaying challenge like having VERY bad things happen to their characters, or will they instantly see it only as "GM anvil-dropping"? A lot of it is up to the skill of the GM to tell the story in a realistic way, and still make the VERY BAD THINGS fun as it is happening.

Too True... It sometimes takes a LOT of Trust in your GM to go with the flow. I have played with some GM's (And even other Players) that never earned that Trust. When you can trust your GM to advance the Story, instead of Anvil-Drop, then you have the makings of a very good story.

Interestingly enough. In the above campaign, there were two of us who got caught. One became a Stooge for MCT (Tyring to play the Corp against the Red Dragon Triad, of whom he was a significant Member), and my character, who was sent to prison. BOTH characters are highly memorable because of the fallout from the decisions we both made upon our Capture. Exceptionally fun to play for both of us, and the other Players (and their characters) STILL continue to talk about them to this day... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Cakeman]

The REAL question is, are the players advanced enough to take on a roleplaying challenge like having VERY bad things happen to their characters, or will they instantly see it only as "GM anvil-dropping"? A lot of it is up to the skill of the GM to tell the story in a realistic way, and still make the VERY BAD THINGS fun as it is happening.

Very true. You mailed the players. If they had fun, you don't have to be drastic. They learned after the first session, changed their characters and adapted. You can send a friendly pointer about how you want things to work in your gaming world, by having some contact calling saying something like "whoa, you didn't have something to do with this ruckuss? word is the shangri-la are out for revenge and are scanning the communications for any info where to send their heavy guys. just a friendly tip, don't call attention to yourselves the next couple of weeks."

So you can acknowledge that others have noticed this whithout it being the cops knocking, and you give them a chance to adapt. Just a suggestion, I think bending the rules of the gaming world is ok in favor of fun and memorable moments as long as it doesn't get out of hands. On another note, how is it that the players tend to do stuff like ripping out cyber while I think it can be morally... wrong? Is it because I threatened their characters and they are killing my NPC's? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (no derailing intended, just infering I've had some player characters in my games do icky stuff too...)

[Yerameyahu]

I'm loving the continued reality TV show of this, though, as they hit every newbie impulse and mistake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Keep it up!

[Manunancy]

that last comment brings me an idea to point that thy've not been exactly subtle and it might cause trouble : have an MCT filial release a special GTA Online 19 mission "kidnap the witness' - complete with the new, minigun-armed 'Exterminator' car, brand new dismembering animations for the 'grab the cyberware for cash' bonus. Feel the thrill of being an evil hardcore criminal, butchering your way to fortune ! Inspired from REAL EVENTS !

Of course there's a risk they'll go even more overboard to earn themselves another special release, but following that add by heavy advertising for private security contractors and maybe a Knight Errant talking head promising to stomp down HARD on violent crime (with footages from heavy weapon training and a demonstration of an ED-209 style firepower superiority drone) should point that it might not be a good idea.

[PittsburghRPGA]

Holy crap. I've just realised that they didn't take away Loomis' commlink before throwing him in the trunk.

Then I'm guessing they didn't take the commlinks of the Shangri La security force either. And that means that the eye and ear recording units (or the built in image & sound link from thier googles/visors/etc) of the instance are now going to be available to the corp (and law enforcement officials since it didn't happen on Corp property).

I'd have all the scream sheets plastered with wanted posters of all the PCs, and an APB out on the car because with all of that circling, surely one of the guards saw the license plate.

And those corp guys likely have good Doc Wagon contracts, so I'd be expecting a reinforced HTR Team to be arriving any second likely with at least one gunship escort.

Here's your Wanted drawback for no bonus BPs (or Karma) everyone.

Seems like it might be a good idea for the survivors to move from Seattle to Denver to escape their blood thirsty reps (and the sec guy who got his limbs blown off when he comes back as Robocop).

Cordially,

Eric
Pittsburgh

[Tanegar]

(and the sec guy who got his limbs blown off when he comes back as Robocop)

Ooh, Daddy likes. Why stop at a few cyberlimbs when you can make him a full-on cyberzombie? Because nothing says "recurring antagonist" like a quasi-human cybernetic crime-against-nature with a raging hate-on for Zod and all his buddies.

[Mardrax]

Ooh, Daddy likes. Why stop at a few cyberlimbs when you can make him a full-on cyberzombie? Because nothing says "recurring antagonist" like a quasi-human cybernetic crime-against-nature with a raging hate-on for Zod and all his buddies.

Sad thing is, he's Horizon.

...Being cuddled to death by Robocob might be fun too!

[hyphz]

I guess the big thing I'm sort of stuck on is that too many of these things seem to me, not like additional twists, but just like SOPs. I mean, in D&D, in most modern editions traps just come down to forcing the players to keep saying "I check for traps" which soon becomes so routine that it's being assumed (or in our group it was rolled into an abbreviation - "I TLP the door" - that's "Traps, Listen, Pick")

So.. "you should have been in disguise".. so we just make a disguise roll every time we go out. "You should have taken his commlink", so they just remember to say that every time they do something simillar... overall just those don't seem to add anything much. And I don't know if it's worth risking rubbing the players the wrong way just to introduce that..

[Aku]

Or, with the video, instead of going the "drek hits fan" route of having it given to the police, have some ganger kid stumble across the body, find the vids, and post it on MyTubeSpace as his snuff film.

[Mayhem_2006]

I guess the big thing I'm sort of stuck on is that too many of these things seem to me, not like additional twists, but just like SOPs. I mean, in D&D, in most modern editions traps just come down to forcing the players to keep saying "I check for traps" which soon becomes so routine that it's being assumed (or in our group it was rolled into an abbreviation - "I TLP the door" - that's "Traps, Listen, Pick")

So.. "you should have been in disguise".. so we just make a disguise roll every time we go out. "You should have taken his commlink", so they just remember to say that every time they do something simillar... overall just those don't seem to add anything much. And I don't know if it's worth risking rubbing the players the wrong way just to introduce that..

Taking their commlinks is always worthwhile, anyway. Give em a quick wipe, but never have too many disposable commlinks...

But here is the thing. Most shadowrunners CAN go out not in disguise, because they remain as low profile as possible whilst doing their illegal stuff.

But you can't look a man in the eye as you calmly shoot off each of his limbs and expect him *not* to have recorded your face, and voiceprint and the licences number of the APC you jumped out of. So yeah, if you are going to do *that* sort of thing, wear a mask at least!

****

Maybe you should redirect your campaign into a gang-level turf war, with your players getting hired by go-gangers to go shoot up other gangers, or even carving out a little niche of their own. Gang warfare down in the barrens will need a lot less subtlety than the average shadowrun...

[Wiseman]

I guess the big thing I'm sort of stuck on is that too many of these things seem to me, not like additional twists, but just like SOPs. I mean, in D&D, in most modern editions traps just come down to forcing the players to keep saying "I check for traps" which soon becomes so routine that it's being assumed (or in our group it was rolled into an abbreviation - "I TLP the door" - that's "Traps, Listen, Pick")

So.. "you should have been in disguise".. so we just make a disguise roll every time we go out. "You should have taken his commlink", so they just remember to say that every time they do something simillar... overall just those don't seem to add anything much. And I don't know if it's worth risking rubbing the players the wrong way just to introduce that..

Some of that is the nature of RPG's, but it's up to the GM to be creative in challenging players.

Seriously, making sure they took the guys commlink when they threw him in the trunk is nothing like opening a trapped locked door or being sure to always be in disguise. That's basic kidnapping 101, and was only mentioned as an angle for the GM to up the stakes (and difficulty and fun!). In fact, it's such a serious miss on the player's part if I had an artistic streak i'd make it into a web comic. Who the hell kidnaps someone and leaves them a means to communicate with everyone else? Next they'll take a hostage and give him the gun...And of everything said in this thread, that advice was probably the least of it all.

Now don't get me wrong, I really enjoy reading the updates, and very much appreciate you posting (it's like playing SR at work!), but you kinda solicited advice in the OP, and you got some solid advice from some good guys (and they all say pretty much the same things). There were awesome ideas in there for you to work to create some unique scenario's that would only further immerse the players, create challenges, and ultimately lead to the fun you were hoping for.

And honestly, I personally think you really DO need to start rubbing them the wrong way. No one said to start yelling out "boom, sniper shot!" every time they don't say "I keep my head down", and i'm not sure how that's all you got from this thread. But a large part of the game is overcoming obstacles one way or another and pushing them to be creative is a good thing.

If none of that will work for you, just talk to them out of game over a beer. "Guys, are you having fun? What could be better? Etc." Maybe they want more hardcore violence with little punitive repercusions (run a barren's thug campaign!).

I guess it really comes down to what kind of game you want though. Plenty of threads about dark mohawks and pink sunglasses....

Looking forward to the next game update though it's a fun read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wiseman]

*double post* I glitched on my Computer + Logic *Loading Edit Program*

[Aku]

I'll say this: You know the team is catching on to the feel of SR when, if you're running a pregen module, the module does not cover the ideas that your team are coming up with.

[Glyph]

Be sure not to go too Mission Impossible/Minority Report on them. Shadowrun is a surveillance state, but it is also a balkanized corporate feudal state where there are a bewildering plethora of warring factions who don't exactly cooperate with each other, and don't like to share. Killing a corporate strike team will get them in trouble with that corporate subsidiary. They might have Knight Errant spending a token effort in finding them, but keep in mind that the other guys were running around outside their jurisdiction with heavy weaponry, too.

In the end, though, it is really the gratuitous stuff (maiming that guy, burning down the bar) that will, one, come back to bite them; and two, give them a hit on their reputation. On the one hand, they will get infamy as a crew of brutal hardcases that you don't want to go up against, but on the other hand, they will also get known as a noisy, less than subtle group, not the kind you hire for the jobs you need quiet and reliable people for. Guess that's why Notoriety gives a bonus to intimidation, and a penalty to everything else.

One thing just popped into my head regarding the commlink - unless they just tossed him into the car, make sure they didn't just think it was implied that they searched him/took away his stuff. It may have been a genuine lapse on their part, or it may have been something they thought went without saying.

[Mardrax]

They might have Knight Errant spending a token effort in finding them, but keep in mind that the other guys were running around outside their jurisdiction with heavy weaponry, too.

If I remember On the Run correctly, they were running around with nonlethal stuff mostly. Nothing heavy at all. Might be misremembering though.

[Troyminator]

There is an Interesting Episode (or two) of Firefly that should drive this theory Home. The Villain is Adelai Niska (First Appeared in the Train Robbery Episode)... Nuff Said...

I love that episode and the follow-up to it where (IIRC) they keep killing Mal and bringing him back. It's been a long time so I may be mis-remembering it.

[hyphz]

Now don't get me wrong, I really enjoy reading the updates, and very much appreciate you posting (it's like playing SR at work!), but you kinda solicited advice in the OP, and you got some solid advice from some good guys (and they all say pretty much the same things). There were awesome ideas in there for you to work to create some unique scenario's that would only further immerse the players, create challenges, and ultimately lead to the fun you were hoping for.

Yes, I was asking for advice; and yes, I liked a lot of the ideas I got. The problem is I'd find many of them really hard to run. I mean, that bit about "have the players wake up in a Lone Star cruiser" in OTR just reads like a total wash to me - how is a novice GM going to run that? There seems to be very little on Lone Star in any of the books at this point.

[Wiseman]

that bit about "have the players wake up in a Lone Star cruiser" in OTR just reads like a total wash to me - how is a novice GM going to run that? There seems to be very little on Lone Star in any of the books at this point.

I follow you, and honestly some of it is just trial and error. Everyone GM's a little different. Some are really good with the intrigue and politics, some know all the history or all the corporate connections, others are great at describing NPC's or highlighting the depth of their character/motivations, some are just better at balancing the game mechanics at the table or tweaking encounters on the fly. Focus on the area you want and keep improving.

Being a GM ain't easy, and you have the hallmarks of a great GM in that you care about everyone having fun. But bear in mind there is no "right answer" or perfect game, it's like art, it's messy. And you'd be amazed by how player's perceptions can run contrary to the GM.

I think the best thing you could do is to keep hashing through the first game and just get through it, for better or worse, and then ask for the player's feedback about what they liked and didn't. Definitely keep posting the updates though, as it's nostalgic for some, learning experience for others, and entertaining for everyone.

Eventually, you'll tailor the missions to your specific players and the characters that represent them, balancing encounters on their specific abilities and player habits. Eventually the whole setting becomes a kind of character itself and things become a whole lot easier.

No matter what though, just relax and enjoy yourself, the rest will work itself out!

[Crazy Ivan]

I follow you, and honestly some of it is just trial and error. Everyone GM's a little different. Some are really good with the intrigue and politics, some know all the history or all the corporate connections, others are great at describing NPC's or highlighting the depth of their character/motivations, some are just better at balancing the game mechanics at the table or tweaking encounters on the fly. Focus on the area you want and keep improving.

That is by far the truest statement ever stated about being a GM. I'll give you 4 GM's that I've worked with in real-life that each have their own style-

GM 1 is a big fan of canon "fluff" (novels and the like) and while dangerously knowledgable about the rules, he only uses it so that he can monitor his characters capabilities. He plays villains as lethally logical and intelligent as fits context, making battles against his foes intensely tactical affairs. He also is not afraid to say "screw the rules" when deciding an effect. NPC's all tend to act rationally and composed, despite stressful in-game situations.

GM 2 is someone that is relatively new to GM'ing, and true role-playing games in general. He thinks of entire campaigns as "levels" concluded with boss fights. The rules are very abstract, and NPC's often do not fit any real rules template. Everything has a "Deus Ex Machina" feel to it, where characters never really have a lot of influence unless combat is going on, and even that is sketchy. But for integrating new players to a rpg, it is a start.

GM 3 is a improviser, through and through. When asked to come up with a run, she had one ready in less than an hour. Her rules knowledge is strong in most areas that are commonly used, and she can usually use logic to deduce the rules she can't perfectly recall. Encounter scaling is still a chore, due to infamiliarity with the high lethality of the game. Politics, motivations, and different personalities are all humanly fleshed out and visible, while not requiring us to listen to an autobiography.

GM 4 knows a political structure of the game, social and otherwise. His knowledge of the rules is solid, and his ability to adapt to what the players what is strong. NPC's are all distinct, and the GM's ability to control his accents and voice styles is amazing. Despite these abilities, the GM is subtly biased when it comes to a style of play, as he is a public GM and some of his players decidedly play a "Pink Mohawk" style while he prefers mirror shades. Tends to drive him crazy.

Each GM there is unique, and all of them have their strengths. With the exception of GM 2, I love playing with each of them. If i was just getting into PnP rpgs, then I might have a stronger appreciation for GM 2's "video game" approach, but in time he will learn.

Learn what works for you, and what works for your players. There is going to be a way to balance them, it just requires observation and communication.

[Wiseman]

Crazy Ivan may have just created a list of the GM Archetype Templates. May need to start a new thread to sketch them all out! LOL

[UmaroVI]

Yes, I was asking for advice; and yes, I liked a lot of the ideas I got. The problem is I'd find many of them really hard to run. I mean, that bit about "have the players wake up in a Lone Star cruiser" in OTR just reads like a total wash to me - how is a novice GM going to run that? There seems to be very little on Lone Star in any of the books at this point.

Yeah, you have to take a lot of the GMing advice here with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how the culture of Dumpshock originated, but there's a certain subsection of the board that will advise any GM with any problem to do the GMing equivalent of pitching a hissyfit, taking your ball, and storming off in a huff, eg, "Kill all your PCs with a sniper, olol," "Have your PCs kidnapped so you can remove their free will, olol," "well clearly the answer is [contrived scenario clearly designed to passive-aggressively punish a particular character], olol."

Plenty of the advice is good, though, you just have to filter the bad advice out.