Can simsense record astral sight?, dual or projecting Options

[Mardegun]

I am pretty sure you can, but I am not 100% sure. As a side note, I think it is mentioned in cooperate security by one of the security archetypes.

[edit] I forget to mention, that in my option optic cameras would not record astral sight. The reason for this is, because astral sight does not use the eyes and hence is not optical. Astral sight uses the third eye, i.e. the mind, which is direct neural sensations.[/edit]

[Luke Hardison]

I'll go out on a limb and say it would record the sense, but it would only be able to play it back to another astrally percieving character. That's just my opinion, without canon backing of any kind. ;)

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Canon satates no. Well, not yet at any rate. There are one or two interesting possiblities to explore in this theory however.

Comments anyone?

[Hero]

You could have some sense translate into mundane sense, like touch, smell, and hearing. I say everything but sight could be because I think it would get some type of recordable sense from the physical body. Astral Sight I would have to say no, because it does not translate over top mundane sight. Just my two cents.

[RangerJoe]

Wow. A very neat problem to consider. I think that _in principle_, a simsense recorder could record astral sensations. I'd have to say that an off the shelf unit would not, though, as 99% of the world's population does not have the "sixth sense" that is astral perception. This is just the sort of thing Dunkie would have loved to see.

If the sensations could be recorded with a specially modified simsense unit (yes, the sense is pyschic, but at some point, at least in perception, your meat brain does some processing, I'd imagine), I imagine they could be transformed into "normal-sense" (five traditional senses) for the mundane. They would just mean less, perhaps.

Imagine the boon such a device would give hermetic thaumatological researchers....

This post has been edited by RangerJoe: Mar 30 2004, 06:04 PM

[Cray74]

[RedmondLarry]

Can simsense record the astral plane? -- of course not IMNSHO

[mfb]

i'd like a page number for the 'canon says no' answer. i don't recall anything specifically forbidding it.

[Cochise]

[tjn]

I would say due to the blurb "Astral Perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense." on pg 171 of the core rules that a direct reproduction of the experience of astral perception is impossible.

However having said that, I could see a Full-X version recorded of a mage using Astral Perception, and then having that same mage go over the recorded experience and edit in sensory perception that matched with his own perception of the Astral would produce something vaguely analogus.

The mage in question would probably have to take an essence hit for the wetwork recorders, and learn quite a bit about SimEditing to make a chip that wasn't obviously edited, but I do see it selling enough for a profit.

It would be IMO, perhaps not an accurate depiction of the experience, but as close as mundanes are going to get, short of being turned into a Ghoul.

EDIT: On the 'does everyone view the Astral the same way or not' issue: Personally, I would think that different mages would percieve differently. However there are two people in my table top group who are ardent supporters of the Astral Plane being the same experience. But if I can recal correctly, there is nothing in the corebooks that I can recall that supports either view.

[Voran]

On page 26, sprawl survival guide, it talks abit about simsense.

Special effects are used in place of active magic in most simproducts, for mana spells and astral projection do not show up on a simsense recording at all. Physical spells can show up, but because they have drain issues, (would rather suck to have the simsense star you've invested a buncha cash on, accidentally kill themselves through drain) simsense productions usually use special effects instead.

It goes on to say that illusions can affect the guy wearing the sim-rig, but won't show up on the actual sim-recording, so they also again have to add stuff via special effects.

[gknoy]

[Mardegun]

It looks like the question is what is psychic sense? If psychic sense where like any other sense, then a mundane could not understand it. For example if a person who was blind all their life was suddenly able to see, it wouldn't make any sense at all.

However astral sight unlike the other five sense, doesn't exist until later in life. So is this to say that anyone could feel what a awaken person feels when perceiving ... is it even a feeling? What is the different between being a dual-being and projecting? What would the +2 modifier feel like for being dual-being.

Here is the bottom line is for me. If astral sight make the body feel something, then a sim record could record it. If the simsense can record thoughts, then it could record astral sight. On the other hand even if a mundane could feel and see what a awaken person does, that does not mean it would make any sense.

ps: I found the spot where it mentions simsense in corporate security

page 122 under freelance magical security consultant it says

"Guns, IC, drones and the like can stop the meat from penetrating your security easily enough, but all it takes is one astral intruder and all your secrets are the simsense of the week."

Now, I don't claim that this is a rule, but it is a conflict ... assuming the mage isn't lying to give himself a job. ;)

In regards to equipment, why would special equipment be needed? All real world things have an effect on the body. If those signals can be recorded, then everything can be recorded.
All I suppose if we are talking about recording a part of the brain that is not normally monitored, then that would require modifications. However in principle it should work. In other words just, because something is psychic doesn't mean there wouldn't be a physiological response.

[BIG BAD BEESTE]

Hmmm, thought provoking ain't it?

OK, lets analyse this from the top shall we? SimSense is an abbreiviation of Simulated Senses which uses the ASIST innovation. IE; it records sensory input of the user/target who has been wired up with the appropriate technology to do so. This recording is usually tweaked by editing and then turned into a product (IE: polished up) which is themn able to be replayed over a variety of devices to another recipient. The recording allows the recipient to experience those same inputs.

Now, SimSense basically comes in two varienties. The first is basic sensory impressions of the five natural senses - sight, sound, touch, taste and smell. This is basic data compared to recording the more complex impression of emotions, which higher costing, more invasive and more advanced technology is recquired for. This is the difference from simply witnessing the experience and "becoming" the actual person who recorded it.

Varients of this technology include: Rigger tech devices (especially in the area of drone remote control systems); the Matrix (yup practically everything here is reliant on SimSense); Skillsofts (you're using a recording of someone else's skill Term); a multitude of domestic entertainment devices/gadgets; and oh yes, let us not forget such things as BTL and brainwashing/reprogramming devices.

OK, so the basis of SimSense is that a sense or emotion that can be felt by the user can effectively be recorded, as long as the technology knows where to record this sense from. (IE: in essence, is wired up to the bits of the brain that recieve and interpret this input.)

With me so far? Good. Now let us consider how this applies to the magician.

A magician is someone whose genetic code allows them to channel mana from astral space and into the physical world using their meat body as a filter for these energies. Their minds are the key to controlling these energies and through training of their though processes they can will their intent upon these energies and thus create a result in accordance to these patterns. (IE: casting spells, enchanting items or controlling spirits) Of course, trying to harness energies greater than their ability to control or successfully channel will result in drain - a physical side effect of the process. They also have the natural ability to alter their perceptions in order to witness, and in some cases travel, the astral realms.

Right then. So how does this affect a SimSense recorder? Well, my interpretation (based upon the published canon materiel since 1st Ed onwards) is that the technology cannot record the magical channeling because this is done at a genetic and above all instinctive level - noone has yet discovered where to plug it in to do this.

Here I cite references in the back of Shadowtech about the Magus Gene, the main rulebook on the nature of being a magican, and the Grimoire in its explanantions on spellcasting, astral travel, and the basic information on being a magician. OK, so many of these books are OOP, but the data is still around in the current 3rd Ed incarnation, so check through your copies of the rulebook, Magic in the Shadows, Man & Machine and even Matrix, Rigger 3 and Cannon Companion for details on ASIST/SimSense technology. Whoever came up with the citation form Sprawl Survival Guide - good one Term. Anyhow, its there all you have to do is look. (In particular the phrase that says magic can only be measured by the sentient awakened mind. It is part science and part art and therefore the reason why no mere unliving machine can utalise mana. That is why there are no magic "thermometers" and why no machines run on this free unlimited energy.)

However, despite the process being "psychic" and unable to be recorded, there is some physical feedback and that is what the tech would record. The comments above about a mage being able to recreate an illusion of the astral experience for others is a very nice and logical idea. The alternative to see what a magicain sees is either become awakened (not likely, but possible IE: SURGE), become another metavarient who is dual natured (HMHVV anyone?), or take some serious BTL (easy, available, but not recommended).

To conclude then, Astral Perception/Projection cannot be recorded because it doesn't use a praticular part of the brain - it's geneticly inbuilt. You will note that the game only translates the experience in terms of sight, sound, etc - heck as senses that we can comprehend because we do not actually possess the sixth sense to do so ourselves. Consider as it trying to explain what something tastes like to someone who has never tasted it before - the only true way of doing it is for them to experience it themselves. And in doing that, the person forms their own opinion about it and thus percieves it in their own unique way. (To support the everyone interprets Astral Space differently but see the same things theory).

Just one final point though - you can bet the megacorps and indeed many magical groups and academics are simply not satisfyied with this current analogy. Therefore they are undertaking significant research in the field of Astral studies. (Aztechnology, Wuxing & Mitsuhama spring to mind) So who is to say that there won't be some significant breakthrough in the years to come. Canon may say no, but if its your game, its your game. Play it how you like.

PS> Personally I like the concept of making Spellsofts that a mage with the correct wetware could jack and then use their own training to cast. Scary n'est pas?

[Lilt]

The way I view it is that physical tech dosen't work on the astral plane (as of yet). It may be technically possible to make a dual-natured radio or something, but there is no garuantee that radio waves work on the astral. On top of that you have the problems with making magical energy... You'd have to enchant batteries one by one. Magical appliances (and CCTV cameras ETC) would need to be connected using magical wires to magical power stations which burn magical fuel...

[Lantzer]

I remember that in ShadowBeat they explained that as far as simsense is concerned, when a mage assenses, nothing is happening. A full-X recording would get the emotive tracks of the "actor" based on what he is seeing, but would only record the sensory tracks for the usual mundane senses.

[mfb]

hm. the idea that illusion spells don't get recorded is wholly ridiculous. i could make myself completely immune to illusion spells by hooking up a simrig, cutting myself off from my natural sensorium via something similar to an RAS, and feeding the recorded simsense back into my brain 1/1000th of a second or so later.

[Lilt]

If a character did that then I'd let them be immune to manna-based illusion spells.

[BitBasher]

That would work if they were mana illusions and not physical, which are picked up by technological devices.

[mfb]

then why can't you use physical illusions to create simsense?

[Voran]

You'd probably have to come up with the reverse of an 'improved invisibility' type spell to have the illusion show up on both the simrig wearer and simsense recorder at the same time.

But given the drain issues involved, it'd still be more cost effective to loop in some special effects instead.

[BitBasher]

[mfb]

oh. color me an inactive reader.