[X] My Assistant

[Mardrax]

Depends on what you consider "each set of wounds".

Is it the simple act of being wounded, or is it the actual boxes of damage?

I tend to go with Aero's interpretation as well.

That said, without an actual First Aid skill to add on top of his medkit rating, I'm surprised he has any dice left to heal anything at all. Since

He also needs two hits, translating into 6 dices.

is actually wrong: he'll need three hits.

The test is Logic + First Aid (2) where only net hits heal anything. The third hit is the first net hit.
Standard modifiers for him would at least include -1 for indoors, -2 for awakened, -wound modifiers. Feel free to stack a -3 for combat on top of that.

That'd probably leave him at enough dice to heal one box, assuming he's the maxed out Logic kind of mage.

[KarmaInferno]

So, really, the biggest problem with First Aid being too good is letting it be too good.

Enforce the time required to apply First Aid, the relevant penalties, the max hits, and only one attempt per set of wounds, and it's suddenly not quite as unbalancing.




-k

[Fyndhal]

If his favorite spell is an overcast AoE, one thing you HAVE to keep in mind is that mana based AoE effects still only hit targets in the mages direct line of sight. Two guys standing next to one another, but only one is in LOS to the mage? ONly one guy gets hit. The other isn't a valid target for the effect. By using airlock style defenses, blind corners and drones, you can take a lot of the wind out of the sails of a mage.

[KCKitsune]

If the mage has a sterilize spell then he can get rid of the poor condition quickly.

Also, I guess I must have made my mage wrong because, yes he has stunbolt, but his main weapon of choice is his silenced Light Fire 70 with SnS for normal people and a MGL-6 for those pesky drones... and Narcojet gas grenades for a whole horde of mooks.

[Troyminator]

@First Aid: Don't forget that being in combat is -3 to the test. Since he is a magician he gets another -2, if he has 'ware there is an additional penalty based on lost essence. Also any dice pool modifiers from wounds also apply to this test, since he is helaing himself. So with 11 dice including the medkit, and a minimum of -5 dice, I doubt that he will often get the 3 required hits to heal the first box of damage. Maybe you should look more closely at what he is rolling.

Thank you all for your advice. I appreciate it.

What page of the rule book has the die modifiers for healing. Mage is also a bit of a rules lawer, so he will want to see it. The mage rarely heals himslef in combat. Since combat usually lasts 1, maybe 2 acction turns, and he does most of the killing in his 1st IP of the first combat turn.

Here's a bit of background with my group: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...inator&st=0

We've gotten one session past where the link above ends. Only the Mage and Face made it. They offed Xa Firebird, but not before talking/negotiating with him. As they are talking to him, I decide that a group of First Nations with come try to rescue him. First group of gangers can't even manage to break down the door. If I read the rules for the corretly, it seems like you would need a grenade or missile just to get through the door. Even shooting it with heavy pistols, they couldn't break the body/armor of the door. They went out the fire escape into the waiting arms of about 12 more First NAtions gangers. Mage spends edge to go first, overcasts manaball, kills 10 or 11 of them. The Face shotguns the last one. I thought about bringing in Lone Star, but figured with only 2 of the five players, I'll go easy on them. Guess I went too easy. I thought I had the gangers spread out. Apparently I didn't have them spread out far enough.

Saturday is our next session. They will be going for the corpse in the DocWagon clinic (in Ghost Cartels). This will be more of a challange. There will be riggers/hackers and at least one mage/shaman, impeded LOS, cover, and anthing else I can throw at them.

Thanks again for your help.

ps edited for clarity

[suoq]

I don't have a copy of his character sheet

Given your collection of issues, with this player and this group, this worries me.

[longbowrocks]

With (Force of Spell) + (net hits) he is regularly doing 11-13 boxes of damage and taking no boxes for overcasting (because of Logic + First Aid).

So far the mage has killed between 15-20 NPC's and the other four characters have killed 3 or 4 between the 4 of them.

Is the mage going first all the time? I imagine at least one of those other characters is a street sammy, who should be going first and dropping at least (without any powergaming whatsoever) one guy per IP. If he isn't, tell him what burst fire is, and how to spend the 400 nuyen required for a gun with access to BF and FA.

Also, spread out your thugs a bit. Don't let the mage hit more than three with one cast. Or make him feel the downside of having to see his targets.

[Lanlaorn]

So not only is he having to chuck high-drain spells, he has to get like 8 hits just to begin to affect it, or he's chucking indirect spells which drones can be really well armored and geared to defend against.

unlesss he goes mundane (the drain on indirect spells is brutal, and the threshold to affect drones means either xasting at high force (with the relevant drain) or taking time as hits are soaked in the treshold)

Indirect combat spells don't need to beat object resistance, the magic creates actual fire or lightning.

Edit 2: Nevermind found it. It actually replaces the skill? Honestly, that's kinda crap. Why would anyone want to take the skill at all then?

You need a really big dicepool to heal any real damage. 10-12 will only heal 1-2 if you're lucky after all the negative modifiers and you beat the threshold to even heal anything at all. And remember you can only heal a set of wounds once. To actually be able to use First Aid on anything other than the odd 1-2 points of Drain/Fading or scraped knee you're going to need the skill. I tried it once, if you can justify a high logic for some other reason (Logic mage/hacker), cyberware/bioware and even nanites (with a Focus Reality Amp to use in combat if your GM allows the wording) then it's worth it. The specializations for the skill are also pretty convenient, "Combat Wounds" is effectively a +2 to 90% of uses for a Shadowrunner. So say Logic 5, Cerebral Boosters (+2), Nanohive (as a component in your cybereyes or so) with logic nanites (+3), PuSheD (+1), Medkit 6 and say First Aid 2 (Combat Wounds).

You'd be rolling 21 dice which sounds like crazy overkill right? Unfortunately there are so many negative modifiers, unless you're in a sterilized medical facility it's at least -1, outdoors is -2, in combat is -3. Then a technomancer/mage/adept takes -2 "just because" and anyone with 'ware takes -1 per 2 points of lost essence, and you obviously see how that means everyone takes some kind of penalty. Plus only your net hits above the threshold count for healing, let's call it 6 dice to beat the threshold.

So you effectively lose 10 dice when you try to use the skill, and are left with 11ish. You could throw some more ranks in the skill I suppose but IMO it's best to raise the Logic instead, then you can also be a great Hacker (PuSheD and the nanites apply to "logic linked skills" not Logic directly) and take care of any Hardware problems with 1-2 ranks in that.

Anyway, tl;dr: Medkits are fine, the system has "taxes" built in that require you use one if you want to heal any real damage, and even then you need to use it in conjunction with the Heal spell.

With regards to the opening post, this isn't a magic system problem, overcasting actually isn't overpowered, I think you just have one player who likes to read the books and optimize and a few others that don't. Anyway just remember if you try some kind of GM arms race against him he may just give up and do some really cheap stuff, like summoning spirits =P

[longbowrocks]

There will be riggers/hackers and at least one mage/shaman, impeded LOS, cover, and anthing else I can throw at them.

Riggers for the win. Give them rating 6 response enhancement (unwired). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Troyminator]

Given your collection of issues, with this player and this group, this worries me.

I am taking steps to rectify the lack of character sheets.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

If the mage has a sterilize spell then he can get rid of the poor condition quickly.

Also, I guess I must have made my mage wrong because, yes he has stunbolt, but his main weapon of choice is his silenced Light Fire 70 with SnS for normal people and a MGL-6 for those pesky drones... and Narcojet gas grenades for a whole horde of mooks.

Hmmm... IMHO against a good (=savvy) GM this might be necessary, but against a normal GM, and probably a ton of published modules, spamming stunbolts is the way to go. Why? Because usually a stunbolt will be a near guaranteed takedown, while any sort of weapon attack, short of a chunky-salsa grenade, will not kill or incapacitate on the first attack. Unless of course your GM is far better with magical defenses than with common ones.

A common mook in my game will have maybe 4 dice of reaction, 3-6 dice of dodge(ranged), 10 dice for soak, and Willpower 2-3. Guess where he goes down faster.

An intermediate mook in my game will have about 5-7 reaction, 6 dice of dodge(ranged), 15 dice to soak with 4-5 electrical resistance, a gas mask and maybe some chemical resistance, yet a max WP of 4-5.

An elite mundane opponent will have maybe 8-9 dice of reaction, at least 6 dice of dodge, and about 20-25 dice for soak (with at least 6 electrical resistance, chem seal and other elemental protection), yet a max of 6 WP. Guess where he goes down faster.

This even disregards extremely lop-sided enemies like trolls with 10 body and 30 dice to soak, but 2 WP.

I'm assuming as a mage you will have about 12-15 dice for your weapons, unless you sustain Improved Attribute, and use other shenanigans. (At some tables Tacnets are completely common, on others they aren't, so....) I'm also assuming you are rolling about 11-15 dice for casting.

Against ALL opponents who don't get at least another 6 dice of counterspelling, a stunbolt at F9 or F11 is a certain takedown, and even then you have only restored parity of dice pools. I'll grant you, if you fail, you will not have destroyed the other guy's next action.

I'll also concede that against drones you're often better off with a big gun.

[Dakka Dakka]

What page of the rule book has the die modifiers for healing. Mage is also a bit of a rules lawer, so he will want to see it.

SR4A p. 252 f.

[Irion]

@Lanlaorn

With regards to the opening post, this isn't a magic system problem, overcasting actually isn't overpowered, I think you just have one player who likes to read the books and optimize and a few others that don't. Anyway just remember if you try some kind of GM arms race against him he may just give up and do some really cheap stuff, like summoning spirits =P

I disagree. It has much to do with the magic system.
This mage is not that bad. (No + to logik linked skills etc... probably no maxed out skill)
But the "unlimited spells per day" trick is bad in any system. Mages are mostly limited by the factor, that they can't do the crazy stuff all the time. If you have a work around for that....
(It is not that bad in shadowrun, I admit. But still... A nice synergy at least.

First aid (the medicine skill group in general) is very usefull. Beeing able to turn chars from nearly dead to 100% in 1 day is nice in any event.
(You have to invest, thats true)
But just for the maxed out hermetic magic it endy up like: Logic 8-10, skill 4(6), medkit 6, 3 to logic linked skills ->23-25 dice. Lets drop 12 dice for mali and we end up with 12. Thats 4 boxes...

[KarmaInferno]

So not only is he having to chuck high-drain spells, he has to get like 8 hits just to begin to affect it, or he's chucking indirect spells which drones can be really well armored and geared to defend against.

Indirect combat spells don't need to beat object resistance, the magic creates actual fire or lightning.

See the second half of my sentence. Bolded for emphasis.




-k

[Dakka Dakka]

Lets drop 12 dice for mali and we end up with 12. Thats 4 boxes...

Nope that is two boxes. It is a First Aid+LOG (2) test. Only net hits heal boxes. 1 or 2 hits do nothing.

[Fyndhal]

Another fun possibility. Have him meet up with a mage who has the Reflecting metamagic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Manunancy]

Indirect combat spells don't need to beat object resistance, the magic creates actual fire or lightning.

Of course - my wording was unfortunate, I meant to say that indirect spell allows to ignore the treshold but have a brutal drain to make up for it compared to direct spells.

Which means either option expose him to higher drain (and damage from it) when facing drones compared to facing live opponents.

[Mäx]

Hmmm... IMHO against a good (=savvy) GM this might be necessary, but against a normal GM, and probably a ton of published modules, spamming stunbolts is the way to go. Why? Because usually a stunbolt will be a near guaranteed takedown, while any sort of weapon attack, short of a chunky-salsa grenade, will not kill or incapacitate on the first attack.

Not on the first, but second one is pretty much guaranteed kill on mooks and you get 2 weapon attacks for every spell casting.

Another fun possibility. Have him meet up with a mage who has the Reflecting metamagic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I personally refer absorption, followed in the next IP with a high force napalm spell (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sengir]

I noticed on pg 204 of SR4A it says, " As an optional rule, every net hit applied also increases the Drain DV of the spell by +1. For area effect spells, the highest net hits used applies to the DV". I am going to start using this. Any other thoughts?

For direct combat spells this is not an optional rule, as per Anniversary Ed. it's RAW...somewhere in the description of combat spells if memory serves.

In addition to what the others have proposed, a few extra points of Willpower are also easy to come by. Gangers looking for trouble might take a hit of Nitro or Kamikaze before, higher-rated grunts can take Adrenaline Pumps or Pain Editors.

PS: And the usual sermon, if players blow up stuff left and right, have them find out why it's called Shadowrun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lanlaorn]

For direct combat spells this is not an optional rule, as per Anniversary Ed. it's RAW...somewhere in the description of combat spells if memory serves.

In addition to what the others have proposed, a few extra points of Willpower are also easy to come by. Gangers looking for trouble might take a hit of Nitro or Kamikaze before, higher-rated grunts can take Adrenaline Pumps or Pain Editors.

PS: And the usual sermon, if players blow up stuff left and right, have them find out why it's called Shadowrun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SR4A first added it as mandatory and then errata'd it to optional. It's a silly rule because there's nothing wrong with direct combat spells and it doesn't do much beyond force the mage to overcast or multicast everything.

[Sengir]

SR4A first added it as mandatory and then errata'd it to optional.

Waiwaiwait, there's errata for 4A? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Lanlaorn]

It's not even really errata, they changed it really quickly, AFAIK only the early pdfs had it, in the SR4 to SR4A changes document (here) for example not only do they mention it was optional they put the "optional" in italics lol,

[suoq]

With regard to first aid skill: Unless you're

1) Spending enough BPs to get more than 6 dice in skills
2) Have houseruled rating 6 kits to be large and bulky
or
3) Have houseruled first aid kits to not replace the skill if the player doesn't have the skill

then first aid as a skill is, as written, not worth taking. The rating 6 first aid kit is right up there with the emotitoy when it comes to BAW (broken as written).

That's one of the issues the GM is facing. The player is using broken rules to their advantage. The opposition is not. Shadowrun is not a good game for a compliant GM to play in an adversarial fashion against a rules lawyering min-maxer. The game is not balanced and is clearly broken in a number of ways. Houseruled, it makes an incredible campaign setting, but even the official Missions campaign setting has pages of houseruling and could use more.

[Lanlaorn]

With regard to first aid skill: Unless you're

1) Spending enough BPs to get more than 6 dice in skills
2) Have houseruled rating 6 kits to be large and bulky
or
3) Have houseruled first aid kits to not replace the skill if the player doesn't have the skill

then first aid as a skill is, as written, not worth taking. The rating 6 first aid kit is right up there with the emotitoy when it comes to BAW (broken as written).

That's one of the issues the GM is facing. The player is using broken rules to their advantage. The opposition is not. Shadowrun is not a good game for a compliant GM to play in an adversarial fashion against a rules lawyering min-maxer. The game is not balanced and is clearly broken in a number of ways. Houseruled, it makes an incredible campaign setting, but even the official Missions campaign setting has pages of houseruling and could use more.

C'mon this seems silly, I see it in many games and everything the GM personally don't like are "broken" rules and players who happen to enjoy whatever that content is are rules lawyers min/maxing the system. Yes, it's easy to be really powerful in a number of ways in this system, but that's the whole idea lol. The mooks should die to the badass professional Shadowrun team and any important NPCs should use the same "broken" rules since they should be powerful too.

[Sengir]

It's not even really errata, they changed it really quickly, AFAIK only the early pdfs had it, in the SR4 to SR4A changes document (here) for example not only do they mention it was optional they put the "optional" in italics lol,

Hmmm, odd. My German hardcopy labels it as optional, the PDF doesn't...