[X] My Assistant

[Troyminator]

Put him up against a mage eater. I can give you the stats.

I would love the stats. Toss it into the Kowloon section of Hong Kong in GC. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Cain]

We meet once a month for a session of anywhere from 8-11 hours. We've been refreshing every session. I have been thinking about altering that. I've been told that as a GM, the best response I can give to a player is "yes", then I make it work. They wanted to refresh every session, I wanted to go at milestones in the Ghost Cartel arc.

The thing is, Mage and Face are the two that regularly show up. GA shows up most of the time, and SS and Hacker sporadicly. I don't really know much about those character because I've rarely seen them. RL keeps them/us hoppin'. So I don't know how the SS and Hacker do combat-wise. I know the SS chose to take the pre-made out of the SR4A book. We're all still trying to figure out the rules and mechanics.

To put it bluntly, the sam out of the SR4.5 book is pretty mediocre. And while the early sections of Ghost Cartels is filled with mooks, more challenging fights come later on. A mage is definitely going to be a plus, but he won't be able to take on some fights with s single spell. You can read my review Here; I'm also running players through it again, so if you have any questions, feel free.

[UmaroVI]

That seems silly, if I wanted a datajack or biomonitor or some other "could be anywhere physically" component, in my cybereye it should be fine. Also does it actually say that anywhere? In any case it doesn't matter, if you don't allow the cybereyes get a cyberhand and put the nano-hive in there, still reduces the essence cost by an order of magnitude.

It seems more silly putting the nano-hive loaded with nanites for your brain in a hand or lower arm than in 'ware actually in your skull.

Right under Headware, in fact.

"These small complex devices are inserted into the head (typically constructed via less-invasive
nanosurgery). Items that have a Capacity rating may be installed in cyberlimbs instead, cost-
ing capacity rather than Essence."


Bodyware has the same disclaimer.

[UmaroVI]

To put it bluntly, the sam out of the SR4.5 book is pretty mediocre. And while the early sections of Ghost Cartels is filled with mooks, more challenging fights come later on. A mage is definitely going to be a plus, but he won't be able to take on some fights with s single spell. You can read my review Here; I'm also running players through it again, so if you have any questions, feel free.

This sounds much more like the source of the problem. The SS sample character, while not Weapons Specialist levels of bad, is not exactly good either; a Mage built by someone who halfway understands the system is going to be better at fighting then her. This isn't really an issue with mages; a Street Samurai who's built by someone who 3/4 of the way understands the system could stomp all over the Combat Mage sample character too.

If he's heavily combat focused it's probably not a huge issue that the Face and Hacker are getting outshone in combat. It might be an issue if the Street Samurai and Gun Adept are. You didn't mention anything about the Gun Adept, but if it's the sample character, then they'll have the same issues as the street samurai, but more so because pure adepts aren't very good at fighting.

You might consider talking to the SS and the GA players and ask if they're having fun. If they are, no problem. If they aren't, honestly, you might get better results and less QQ from letting them Radiation Accident their characters to fix them up some.

[Aku]

Right under Headware, in fact.

"These small complex devices are inserted into the head (typically constructed via less-invasive
nanosurgery). Items that have a Capacity rating may be installed in cyberlimbs instead, cost-
ing capacity rather than Essence."


Bodyware has the same disclaimer.

It's early, so I'm not sure which angle you're taking here Umaro, but to clarify, cybereyes, arent cyberlimbs, so their capacity rating doesnt compare with an actual limb therefore, no hives in the eyes.

[Hida Tsuzua]

It's early, so I'm not sure which angle you're taking here Umaro, but to clarify, cybereyes, arent cyberlimbs, so their capacity rating doesnt compare with an actual limb therefore, no hives in the eyes.

I think that's what he means in response to Lanlaorn's question. It does explicitly say that you can't put headware or bodyware in the eyes, only into cyberlimbs.

[UmaroVI]

It's early, so I'm not sure which angle you're taking here Umaro, but to clarify, cybereyes, arent cyberlimbs, so their capacity rating doesnt compare with an actual limb therefore, no hives in the eyes.

Yes, that's what I meant (ie, this is where it says "no nanohives in your cybereyes."

[Troyminator]

To put it bluntly, the sam out of the SR4.5 book is pretty mediocre. And while the early sections of Ghost Cartels is filled with mooks, more challenging fights come later on. A mage is definitely going to be a plus, but he won't be able to take on some fights with s single spell. You can read my review Here; I'm also running players through it again, so if you have any questions, feel free.

Thank you, Cain. I really appreciate it.

ps the link in your post that I quoted doesn't seem to work.

(edited for the PS)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If the mage has a sterilize spell then he can get rid of the poor condition quickly.

Also, I guess I must have made my mage wrong because, yes he has stunbolt, but his main weapon of choice is his silenced Light Fire 70 with SnS for normal people and a MGL-6 for those pesky drones... and Narcojet gas grenades for a whole horde of mooks.

Actually, that is the RIGHT way to design a mage. Why leave those pesky astral signatures lying around for later?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I personally refer absorption, followed in the next IP with a high force napalm spell (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This is my personal favorite as well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

Just to get this straight:
The mage we are talking about did not have a nanohive in his cybereyes?

If this is the case, there is only one possible option:
1. Get a newspaper.
2. Roll the newspaper.
3. Hit player with newspaper.
4. Repeat step 3.

I mean the nonohive in the lower arm is minmaxing.
The cyberfoot is above minmaxing.
But the eyes? Thats beyond munchkin.

PS:
One question regarding the napalm spell:
Is it armor/2 or armor/4?
I would guess it is the later but...

[Lanlaorn]

Actually, that is the RIGHT way to design a mage. Why leave those pesky astral signatures lying around for later?

Heh I would think the right way to play a mage would be to actually cast spells =P With respect to astral signatures though, they're not that dangerous. There's no way to put the astral signature into a database, no way to write it down or share it with other people. The Search power explicitly says that you need to see the target or provide a mental image to the spirit, and an astral signature isn't even close to an image.

If you leave behind astral signatures from your spells (you can remove them with a few complex actions after the firefight without any metamagic, and either do it faster with Cleansing or be devious with Flexible Signature) and the Mage investigator arrives on the scene before they fade (even for high force spells, if you stealthily take everyone down going in and out, nothing may be discovered until the morning) and he succeeds in his assensing (but since this is his profession let's assume that) then...

There is now one person, who if he personally sees you may, if he assenses you and if he succeeds on his memory check, recognize your aura.

It's really not that useful for tracking the Mage down unless you somehow manage to have that one investigator personally find and interrogate every Mage. IMO it's more like something that's damning evidence at your trial. Once you're caught they'll bring out the entire Magic Crime Department and have every detective assense you and compare that to their memory of crime scenes.

I don't know it just never seemed like a real threat to me, especially considering Lonestar, Knight Errant and all the individual corps you run against would each have their own magical investigation resources, so even the odds of one man building a profile because he knows you were involved in crimes X, Y and Z are slim since it'll be three guys each knowing one thing.

Irion: you should actually read the thread, since the nanohive was a completely tangential discussion about the first aid skill. For the record, I still think that putting non-eye components in cybereyes should be fine with obvious sanity checks.

[Crazy Ivan]

On a side note, here's a few thoughts I had while reading through this rather lengthy discussion...

1. Isn't it actually impossible to heal drain except by NATURAL healing? I'm pretty sure I read in one of the books that was the case.

2. The optional rule about extra drain for each net het on direct combat spells is listed as optional. I find direct combat spells crazy overpowered (make the low chance roll or take enough damage to effectively cripple you in exchange for maybe 3 drain? Not cool.

3. Area effects- I would think that direct spells only affect what you see, while indirect can spray around corners and such.- Even after re-reading it, I'm still not sure about it RAW.

[HunterHerne]

On a side note, here's a few thoughts I had while reading through this rather lengthy discussion...

1. Isn't it actually impossible to heal drain except by NATURAL healing? I'm pretty sure I read in one of the books that was the case.

No. You can heal drain with firstaid/aided by medicine, but it can't be healed with magic. Stun damage in general also seems to be immune to magic at my last read through (though I could be wrong. Please inform me if I am)

2. The optional rule about extra drain for each net het on direct combat spells is listed as optional. I find direct combat spells crazy overpowered (make the low chance roll or take enough damage to effectively cripple you in exchange for maybe 3 drain? Not cool.

I agree. And given the abundance of ways people seem to be able to avoid the effects, I use the Food Fight version of Direct spells. On the physical plane, they deal net hits in damage, and force+ net hits in astral.

3. Area effects- I would think that direct spells only affect what you see, while indirect can spray around corners and such.- Even after re-reading it, I'm still not sure about it RAW.

This is correct.

[HunterHerne]

On a side note, here's a few thoughts I had while reading through this rather lengthy discussion...

1. Isn't it actually impossible to heal drain except by NATURAL healing? I'm pretty sure I read in one of the books that was the case.

No. You can heal drain with firstaid/aided by medicine, but it can't be healed with magic. Stun damage in general also seems to be immune to magic at my last read through (though I could be wrong. Please inform me if I am, preferably with at least a page number so I can look it up.)

2. The optional rule about extra drain for each net het on direct combat spells is listed as optional. I find direct combat spells crazy overpowered (make the low chance roll or take enough damage to effectively cripple you in exchange for maybe 3 drain? Not cool.

I agree. And given the abundance of ways people seem to be able to avoid the effects, I use the Food Fight version of Direct spells. On the physical plane, they deal net hits in damage, and force+ net hits in astral.

3. Area effects- I would think that direct spells only affect what you see, while indirect can spray around corners and such.- Even after re-reading it, I'm still not sure about it RAW.

This is correct.

[Crazy Ivan]

This is correct.

WOOT! I got one of them right based on common sense. Anyways, I'm going to start hitting my books when I return home to see if I can find that rule about drain or at least the rule that gave me that impression. Its going to bug me, but oh well.

[Irion]

@Lanlaorn

Irion: you should actually read the thread, since the nanohive was a completely tangential discussion about the first aid skill. For the record, I still think that putting non-eye components in cybereyes should be fine with obvious sanity checks.

Thats about the level of:
"Ok, so I get 6 drain. Now I resist drain with 10 dices.... 2 points of drain left. Since it is physical damage I got to resist with body...."

Yes, the rules do not say it is forbidden but it is actually clear it does not work that way...
Well, actually they do.

Eyeware subsystems either take up Capacity in a cybereye
or Essence in a natural eye (not both). For both replacements
and retinal mods, upgrades usually involve both eyes
so the user’s vision is not unbalanced.

Is a nanohive an eyeware sub system? No, I do not think so...

[Lanlaorn]

@Lanlaorn

Thats about the level of:
"Ok, so I get 6 drain. Now I resist drain with 10 dices.... 2 points of drain left. Since it is physical damage I got to resist with body...."

Yes, the rules do not say it is forbidden but it is actually clear it does not work that way...
Well, actually they do.

Is a nanohive an eyeware sub system? No, I do not think so...

That says that eyeware can only go into a cybereye, not that a cybereye can only hold eyeware. Also, a nano-hive has no location classification whatsoever. Headware, bodyware, eyeware, who knows? IMO it, like a few other things such as datajack and biomonitor, just make sense that they could go anywhere. I'm not going to argue "it doesn't say I can't do it" like you're trying to strawman me with the drain example, really this is something to be decided at the table, but the quoted section does not help your argument whatsoever.

[Dakka Dakka]

While the quote above won't help this one might:

This system offers 20/20 vision for both eyes and includes an image link and an eye recording unit (for no extra cost), as well as capacity for various enhancement systems.

Though the rule does not specify vision enhancements explicitly, it's pretty clear that you cannot use every implant with a capacity rating.

[UmaroVI]

Check nanocybernetics; Augmentation 112. This is the category into which Nanohives fall.

"Some nanocybernetics can be installed within cyberlimbs; these have the ECU and other costs listed in their descriptions."

Note, cyberLIMBS. Not any old piece of cyberware.

[Irion]

@Lanlaorn
Sorry, but sometimes it is obvious. I mean come on, the format alone is a give away.

(The drain example, as a matter of fact, is not that clear I have to admit...)

[Lanlaorn]

Look, I see where you guys are coming from, but I'm not even saying to put commlinks, sim modules, hold out pistols, or anything else that could concievably fit in them, just the truly "versatile" stuff which IMHO a nano-hive is the prime example of.

Plus it's clearly not some kind of unfair advantage mechanically since Lower Leg has a similar essence:capacity ratio and offers side benefits like another physical box, armor enhancements and so on.

[suoq]

I would like to submit this page as evidence for why I believe the OP should:
a) have houserules and update them as necessary
b) have a copy of the player's character sheets

It's much easier to simply houserule what you think the rules say in the first place than argue about if the rules really say that.

[Traul]

Plus it's clearly not some kind of unfair advantage mechanically since Lower Leg has a similar essence:capacity ratio and offers side benefits like another physical box, armor enhancements and so on.

It is in that case: the mage already needs cybereyes for the vision enhancements. Fitting the hive in them greatly improves his Essence efficiency.

[Cain]

Thank you, Cain. I really appreciate it.

ps the link in your post that I quoted doesn't seem to work.

(edited for the PS)

Oops. Try this one.