So who else now has the Hero Lab Character Generator for SR4a? Options

[Nebulus]

I just bought this and it is fantastic for GMs! I can highly recommend it.

[_Pax._]

I've had the program, and every Shadowrun datafile on offer, for about two weeks now. And I love it very, very much.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I broke down and got it. It is fairly sweet. I am not sure I am going to agree with all of their rules interpretations though. Like they say cyber limb armor does not add to your armor it only applies if someone makes a called shot.

[_Pax._]

I don't think I'd let someone get +2/+2 armor, for only 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , because one arm is armored, either.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don't think I'd let someone get +2/+2 armor, for only 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , because one arm is armored, either.

Hey if you want to house rule things that is cool with me, but it clearly states in SR4 that the armor is cumulative with worn armor. It no where even hints that it is only for called shots. And an official character generator should strive to follow the rules. And on the house rule side I find it a bit suspect given the form fitting, helmets etc. all give extra armor for cheap as well, and really it isn't 600, since you need to buy the limb.

[Inu]

So: the software doesn't let you house rule and break rules? (For instance, could I alter the skill list?)

[Shinobi Killfist]

So: the software doesn't let you house rule and break rules? (For instance, could I alter the skill list?)

You can alter things and add things. Too what degree I am not sure, tech is no my strong suit. The person who is about to GM a game I will be running in on the other hand is in the tech field and is trying to get his house rules in. I'll wait and see how that pans out.

[_Pax._]

Hey if you want to house rule things that is cool with me, but it clearly states in SR4 that the armor is cumulative with worn armor. It no where even hints that it is only for called shots. And an official character generator should strive to follow the rules. And on the house rule side I find it a bit suspect given the form fitting, helmets etc. all give extra armor for cheap as well, and really it isn't 600, since you need to buy the limb.

Nowhere does it say that the armor is body-wide, either. In fact, the Strength o that limb isn't body-wide, so why should anything else be?

And given the lack of definitive statements either way, I - being a veteran of every edition of Shadowrun ever to grace this planet, to date - look to prior editions, where Cyberlimb armor was not an estraordinarily cheap way to layer on more armor.

I would probably be willing to give HALF the limb's armor to your overall armor rating - a little more generous than prioreditions, but SR4 armor ratings are universally higher anyway, so ... *shrug*. Also, at "half", a starting character could have a +1/+1 overall net benefit.

[_Pax._]

So: the software doesn't let you house rule and break rules? (For instance, could I alter the skill list?)

There is an editor that you can adjust the datafiles - or even create your own from scratch (useful, since for example: the German-produced stuff probably won't get an official release from LWD).

[Sengir]

In fact, the Strength o that limb isn't body-wide, so why should anything else be?

Because there are specific rules for uneven Attributes, but Armor is not an attribute. And because a helmet or ballistic vest gives its full bonus despite not covering the whole body...

[Hida Tsuzua]

In addition to stuff like helmets and FFBA, there's also Dermal Sheaths. Rating 1 and Rating 2 explicitly only cover a section of the user's body, but most people would say their armor bonuses apply all the time. There's also the question of what happens if a guy has armor 3 all over. Does it apply all the time then? What if he has no armor on his head? What about if he armors just his limbs?

[_Pax._]

Helmets cover a specifically-vulnerable part of the metahuman body (the part the brain is in).

Dermal Sheaths start out covering the torso (where several other "must have them to continue being alive" organs are kept), and a ratign 1 system costs 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

FFBA, like dermal sheathing, stars out covering the torso.

Even things like the Securetech PPP items, "forearm guards", "arm and leg casings", "shin guards": these items are worn on BOTH limbs, not just one.

...

Anyway: IMO either ruling is simply a matter of "how do you interpret this rule - which was not written to be explicitly clear enough?"

And there's an easy solution to that: post on the LWD forum for HL:Shadowrun, and ask that it at least be made an optional rule to apply some or all of a Cyberlimb's armor to a character's overall body. As I am already registered for that forum, I shall do so myself in just a moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

There, Feature requested. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Nowhere does it say that the armor is body-wide, either. In fact, the Strength o that limb isn't body-wide, so why should anything else be?

And given the lack of definitive statements either way, I - being a veteran of every edition of Shadowrun ever to grace this planet, to date - look to prior editions, where Cyberlimb armor was not an estraordinarily cheap way to layer on more armor.

I would probably be willing to give HALF the limb's armor to your overall armor rating - a little more generous than prioreditions, but SR4 armor ratings are universally higher anyway, so ... *shrug*. Also, at "half", a starting character could have a +1/+1 overall net benefit.

Hey, guess what, I'm also "a veteran of every edition of Shadowrun ever to grace this planet, to date". And I see in black and white that the rules definitively state that non-worn armor all stacks, and that armor is not an attribute.

The rules as written have no location-based damage or armoring. A bullet fired at you gets affected by the armor on your helmet or chest or foot or wherever. You don't fire at someone's head, or chest, or foot, you fire at "them". It's abstract. Armor on your arm is treated the same. If you want to aim at a specific part, you use the Called Shot rules, which do indeed allow you to bypass armor.

More importantly, you might argue that this shouldn't be that way, but a third-party licensed product is not the place to do it.

The Hero Lab generator is supposed to follow the rules as written exactly. It's not there to serve as errata or rules correction.

If there is a rules correction that needs to be made, it should be coming from Catalyst, not Lone Wolf.



-k

[Hida Tsuzua]

Helmets cover a specifically-vulnerable part of the metahuman body (the part the brain is in).

Dermal Sheaths start out covering the torso (where several other "must have them to continue being alive" organs are kept), and a ratign 1 system costs 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

FFBA, like dermal sheathing, stars out covering the torso.

Even things like the Securetech PPP items, "forearm guards", "arm and leg casings", "shin guards": these items are worn on BOTH limbs, not just one.

...

Anyway: IMO either ruling is simply a matter of "how do you interpret this rule - which was not written to be explicitly clear enough?"

And there's an easy solution to that: post on the LWD forum for HL:Shadowrun, and ask that it at least be made an optional rule to apply some or all of a Cyberlimb's armor to a character's overall body. As I am already registered for that forum, I shall do so myself in just a moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

People can and do die from being hit in the limbs. There isn't a safe place to get hit.

Protecting your groin and thighs can increase your armor value. I can even wear glass wings that give me +1/+1 armor. You make generic called shots to bypass armor that work even if you're completely covered in military armor. Also what happens if I do shell out the nuyen for 4 limbs and a cybertorso with Armor 4? Does the armor now provide complete protection? If so how (average, stacking, or what)? When's the cut-off? Two limbs? The torso?

There are problems about cyberlimb armor is too good, but that's very different from arguing that it works in a way unlike its other armor and cyberware armor counterparts. Not only is Shadowrun not a hit location based system, Hero Labs isn't the place to change how it works.

As for bringing it to the HL forums, I actually was working on a post for this and other topics.

[_Pax._]

If there is a rules correction that needs to be made, it should be coming from Catalyst, not Lone Wolf.

... um ... where did you get the idea I was asking for any such thing?

I asked LWD to change their program, or at least make it optional, so that it could work the way you read it.

[_Pax._]

Yeah, upon reflection: I will definitely be houseruling Cyberlimb armor to cost more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and some Capacity, in my games. It's just too damned good as-is.

Really, I know this is an edge-case, but: Nartaki. Six alpha-grade cyberlimbs, each with 2 points of armor. Alpha grade Orthoskin (3). Armor jcket. Securetech PPP (everything except the helmet). Body 5 (including for the limbs).

Nuyen cost? 293,400 (so he won't have much ELSE, without taking "In Debt" - and has to have "Born Rich" so he can pump more BP into starting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ).
Essence? 0.2 left.

Next thing to unkillable, with physical damage at least: 25/25 armor. Heck, with the family jewels flappin' in the breeze, he's got 15/15 ...!!

[Caadium]

There is an editor that you can adjust the datafiles - or even create your own from scratch (useful, since for example: the German-produced stuff probably won't get an official release from LWD).

I recently picked it up as well. I've fiddled with the editor a bit in Pathfinder, and had a reason to use it in Shadowrun, and its pretty easy for equipment and cyber. I've not tried it for rules yet though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, upon reflection: I will definitely be houseruling Cyberlimb armor to cost more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and some Capacity, in my games. It's just too damned good as-is.

Really, I know this is an edge-case, but: Nartaki. Six alpha-grade cyberlimbs, each with 2 points of armor. Alpha grade Orthoskin (3). Armor jcket. Securetech PPP (everything except the helmet). Body 5 (including for the limbs).

Nuyen cost? 293,400 (so he won't have much ELSE, without taking "In Debt" - and has to have "Born Rich" so he can pump more BP into starting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ).
Essence? 0.2 left.

Next thing to unkillable, with physical damage at least: 25/25 armor. Heck, with the family jewels flappin' in the breeze, he's got 15/15 ...!!

Totally can see why. In our game the GM decided all cyber/bio based armor values are halved before stacking. And he doe snot allow staking from worn armor like form fitting etc. Too cheap and adds to dice pool bloat. As for your armor tank guy, yeah that is extreme. We had a full borg in one of our games at 2 armor per location, he rolled a crap ton of dice to resist damage but he was slower than the other combat guys and magic and toxins still screwed him. Especially since he cheesed it and had a 1 attribute in body, strength, agility saving tons of his 200 for other stats since those would all be cyber. 1 body does not resist toxins very well.

[_Pax._]

As I posted on JackPoint:

Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen, Rating * [2] Capacity
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen, Rating * [4] Capacity
Availability:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 4R
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 6R
Rating Limits:
... Hand/Foot: not available
... Half limb: 1 point (each limb)
... Full limb: 2 points (each limb)
... Torso: 3 points
... Skull: 2 points