Nanohives, cyberlimbs, and cyber eyes, dragged kicking and screaming out of the mage thread Options

[Mäx]

If i was a GM, i would rule that no matter where you get the nano-hive you always pay 0,5 essence for the organ modifications necessary for keeping the body from filtering out the nanites.
Also i would most likely change the capacity cost to be rating dependant, most likely rating*1.

[Draco18s]

for keeping the body from filtering out the nanites.

You realize that you BSed that into the game, right? The nanohive's purpose is to replace nanites lost due to the body filtering them out.

[Mäx]

You realize that you BSed that into the game, right? The nanohive's purpose is to replace nanites lost due to the body filtering them out.

Good job reading the nanohive description in the Augmentation:
"As part of nanohive implantation procedures, a host of
other minor cybernetic modifications are made to pre-existing
organs including the liver, kidneys, and spleen. These alterations
keep the body from filtering out nanites like other waste and cellular
“detritus.”"

Maybe next time you could actually read the relevant texts from the book, before being a dick and calling someone elses comment bs.

[Draco18s]

Good job reading the nanohive description in the Augmentation:
"As part of nanohive implantation procedures, a host of
other minor cybernetic modifications are made to pre-existing
organs including the liver, kidneys, and spleen. These alterations
keep the body from filtering out nanites like other waste and cellular
“detritus.”"

My mistake, I'd never read that text before, despite numerous readings on the nanohive when pondering getting one.

[MikeKozar]

So, maybe Draco18 wasn't being a dick after all?

[Mäx]

So, maybe Draco18 wasn't being a dick after all?

Well calling some ones post bs, without reading the relevant text before posting, is pretty damm dickish.

[Aku]

Fight nice boys, or I'll turn this discussion into something about Najda's buttery brown's

[Rubic]

Fight nice boys, or I'll turn this discussion into something about Najda's buttery brown's

DOOO EEEEET!

I'd never be statted in a CoC game, as I'd regain sanity by making others lose theirs xD

[KarmaInferno]

My mistake, I'd never read that text before, despite numerous readings on the nanohive when pondering getting one.

Dude, 3/4s of this entire thread has been revolving around that book passage. It's been quoted in the thread multiple times, including the first post.





-k

[Draco18s]

Dude, 3/4s of this entire thread has been revolving around that book passage. It's been quoted in the thread multiple times, including the first post.

In which case:

Excuse me for not recalling a passage of text I read several hours ago that I may or may not have been paying attention to at the time.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, actually reading the thread you're posting to might have been nice.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)






-k

[Draco18s]

Well, actually reading the thread you're posting to might have been nice.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Sometimes I take a cursory glance at a thread to see if I'm interested and not really paying attention closely until later on.
I happened to find something to "object to" and make a post before that really happened.

[Irion]

So right, we got some new information, now lets role with it.
Considering the fluff I guess it is a good idea to handle it like Max did.
So I guess you could but the capacity at 2 per Rating and an about 0.2 points of essence loss due to the modification
In Limb: 0.2 Essence + raiting*2 capacity
In Body: 0.2 + Raiting*0.2 Essence

Thats more than good if you look at the effects Nanoware has...


I would however increase the capacity of (at least) synthetic limps. (A Synthetic skull is worthless and a waste of essence)
The obvious limbs (with the exeption of the skull) are quite ok. Maybe raise skull and torso a bit.

[KCKitsune]

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, when you take 3 boxes of damage, every single nanoware loses a point of rating... which takes a week to get back if you have a nanohive. That is a drawback big enough to offset the fact that you don't lose Essence when getting a nanohive installed in a cyberlimb.

[PoliteMan]

Man, you people didn't read that section of Augmentation at all did you?

The following are worth their weight in gold:

Huh? I've run over that section several times, I'm not seeing the gold.

[*]O-Cells

So I'm paying 32,000 for, basically, immunity to most diseases. That's not bad if I've got a build to take advantage of it but it general, unless I'm punching Ghouls in the face for a living, that's pretty meh.

[*]Oxyrush

15k to hold my breath and a bonus on Fatigue tests? Really?

[*]Nano-symbiotes

I don't understand these at all. If I've been hurt, I lose nanites. So anytime I might use these, I've already lost them from damage. How the heck do these even work? Besides, 25k for +3 to natural healing isn't impressive.

[*]nantidotes

Again, this is 20-30k to for, basically, immunity to poisons. Why should I be excited about this?

[*]Control Rig Booster

I can see this. You're facing a real trade-off, since you can't get the simsense booster, but it's a legitimate tradeoff.

[*]Nanite Hunters "blue-goo"

I need to find a new way to say "unimpressive". I'd imagine these do more harm than good, since the only time I can think of a GM using cutter nanites is if you had these and reminded him they existed. Again, 16-25k to be completely underwhelmed.

[*]Trauma Control System (If you have the nano-biomonitor)

Like Nanosymbiotes, if I'm making a Stabilization Check, these have already suffered serious degradation. And for that, I'm paying 22k?

Is there something I'm missing. Besides the Control Rig Boosters, why would you pay 20-30k for a hyper-specialized system against very specific threats that just don't appear that often IMO? And why would I pay for a system to stabilize or heal me when I'm hurt if getting hurt reduces the effectiveness of that system?

[suoq]

I don't understand these at all. If I've been hurt, I lose nanites. So anytime I might use these, I've already lost them from damage. How the heck do these even work?

My impression with most of these is that they're not meant to be stored in the person using them, they're meant to be stored in the van. To me they read like incredibly expensive trauma patches for anything the GM might throw at you. Something worth stealing on your way to Prime Runner when you might need them.


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As was pointed out earlier in the thread, when you take 3 boxes of damage, every single nanoware loses a point of rating... which takes a week to get back if you have a nanohive. That is a drawback big enough to offset the fact that you don't lose Essence when getting a nanohive installed in a cyberlimb.

Can you run that by me again? There's something I'm not understanding here.
A rating 6 nanohive costs 2 essence and has the same loss of rating with damage as a rating 6 nanohive in a cyberfoot that costs .25 essence and and extra 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
How does taking the loss of rating in either case justify the essence saving in a single case?

[UmaroVI]

Control Rig Boosters are alright if you really want to be a jumped-in rigger, and suffer from the problems of jumped-in riggers rather than being inherently bad.

Universal Nantidotes are great, because Poisons are extremely hard to defend against otherwise. If you get hit with, say, Gamma-Scopalamine+DMSO, you are probably going down without these.

O-Cells I am less sold on because I've yet to actually see the disease rules in play, but I think that it's GM-dependant. If your GM is all "now make checks against the infection you picked up wading through that sewer!" then sure, probably worth it, or if you run into ghouls ever and the GM actually uses the hilariously stupid HMHVV as written.

Neocortical Nanites are great for downtime stuff like Armorer.

Every other type of nanite is really crappy, though.

[PoliteMan]

Can you run that by me again? There's something I'm not understanding here.
A rating 6 nanohive costs 2 essence and has the same loss of rating with damage as a rating 6 nanohive in a cyberfoot that costs .25 essence and and extra 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
How does taking the loss of rating in either case justify the essence saving in a single case?

Not sure which part is confusing you, so I'll answer two possibilities.

A nanohive is odd. Nanites don't require any essence, they're just expensive. Anybody can use them, or all of them, if they have the nuyen. However, your body naturally filters them out at a rate of one rating point a week and they're too expensive to keep replacing. You might grab, say, nanantidotes or anti-rads for a specific run and a few will be in your system for the next run but that's it.

A nanohive prevents this. Your body doesn't filter them out and it will replace ones lost due to damage at 1 rating point per week. Basically, you pay extra essence and nuyen to make the nanite boost permanent.

As for the essence and degradation.
Even without the essence cost, most nanites are so expensive (hive+nanites) that they're not going to see abuse even if they cost no essence. Neural Nanites are the only no-brainer there, the others are fairly underwhelming, and if you take enough damage (like on a run) their rating (nanites, not naohive) decreases, so overall they're just...not that impressive. You pay a lot to get some very specialized boosts that probably will have degraded by the time you really need them. Maybe if you're an adept or a mage with a cyberarm and you have a ton of money to invest in a high rating nanohive and all the individual nanites it might get a little wonky but you'd be looking at well over 100k at that point and there's probably better things you could buy.

[Irion]

@PoliteMan
O-Cells, Antidotes and anti rads?
Because the offer a freaking immunity in most cases.

For example: A toxic radiation spirit is killing runners like bugs.
With antirad, you just smile at him.
Add to those three nanohunters and you are immune to close to every trap in the game.
(With oxyrush you also got more time if somebody is drowning you)
And if you have a GM who is really into realistic gameplay, they will help a bit against strangulation while the internal air tank won't.

Even without the essence cost, most nanites are so expensive (hive+nanites) that they're not going to see abuse even if they cost no essence.

On a street level no. But on streetlevel you can't abuse much anyway.
But considering the cost of getting something beta or even delta grade....

Finally:
Yes if your game consist of we shoot lead at them and they shoot lead at us, most nanites are not that usefull.

For every 3 boxes of Physical damage
taken by the host, reduce the rating of any active nanoware systems
by 1.

Wow, so you just get yourselve a traume damper at a decant pool to soak damage. And if you get hit for lots of damage you are in a world of hurt anyway. (The reduced systems won't be that bad)

Oh, and every single one is very hard to find...

[Stahlseele]

Systems that are supposed to help with/against damage being reduced by the very damage they are supposed to help with/against is a bit dumb in my eyes too . .
At least they should not be reduced immediately . . if you patch the holes in your body up before too much of the soup runs out, then why should they have decreased in the first place?

[PoliteMan]

@PoliteMan
O-Cells, Antidotes and anti rads?
Because the offer a freaking immunity in most cases.

For example: A toxic radiation spirit is killing runners like bugs.
With antirad, you just smile at him.
Add to those three nanohunters and you are immune to close to every trap in the game.
(With oxyrush you also got more time if somebody is drowning you)
And if you have a GM who is really into realistic gameplay, they will help a bit against strangulation while the internal air tank won't.

And you pay through the nose for it.
Later on in same book (p.134) you get pharmaceuticals you get plenty of anti-viral, anti-poison goodies. You can get chem protection or chem seal for armor. There's much, much cheaper alternatives. They aren't as good, not by a long shot, but I can fit them into most builds if I want to. Unless the nanites are helping with my specialization, I'm probably going to go for the dirt cheap alternative. Especially because if I buy anti-rad nanites and the GM uses poison, or vice-versa, those nanites do nothing for me. It's not like I normally have no chemical protection, I just don't see the point in paying 30k for the super-ultra version when the cheaper alternative is literally a few hundred nuyen.

I'm struggling to think of a character that would reasonably have ware and enough cash to dump into nanites to make this a concern. Maybe a Logic tradition mage, who already has ware for Cerebral Boosters, and then pours buys a cyberlimb for armor, or just why not? After dozen runs, maybe he has enough spare nuyen to get all the nanites he could want. But even then, it still seems very meh. Why would a Sam or any mundane dump that much nuyen into ware instead of, say, Alphaware.

Finally:
Yes if your game consist of we shoot lead at them and they shoot lead at us, most nanites are not that usefull.

Lead is constant. Lead is widely used, it's the default threat. And until I start running into more poison and rads than lead, I'm certainly not spending more on anti-poison/anti-rads than I do on armor, even if it doesn't cost any essence.

[Irion]

@PoliteMan
Those nanites have a different mechanic behind them.

Anti-rad
nanoware reduces the Power of radiation damage by its rating.

So with an Anti-rad 6 you would reduce 7 points of radiation damage to 1 single box.

And I guess after RAW (due to this mechanic) they are uneffected by any form of penetration ruling etc.

You can get chem protection or chem seal for armor.

Which is quite obvious and is not offering nearly as much protection.

They aren't as good, not by a long shot, but I can fit them into most builds if I want to.

They are mostly useless. Unless you start stacking tons of dices. Which would be costing much more than the nanoware.

I mean universal antidotes 9 cost 22.500.
Now tell me, where do I get 27 dices to resist poisons for that kind of money? (As invisible protection!)
(Not to mention, that they do not care about penetration due to the mechanic.)

Yes, if you do not use toxins they have no effect. If you do not encounter radiation, they have no effect. If you do not encounter diseases they do not have an effect.
But if you stay with the fluff for a bit you notice that radiation, diseases and toxins are quite common in Shadowrun.

Lets put it like that: You do not use nanites if you are doing "rescue the girl from her abusive boyfriend" kind of runs.


Shutdown is one of those runs, where nanites would help a lot. (Well I know it is SR3 but you still can make a spin off)
Any run where you might be in a dangerous environment (SOX for example) or where you can't bring to much gear, is much easyier if you have those nano systems.

You may actually consider getting away by jumping in the river. If you make it look like you slipped, they will think you are dead. (If you do not drown, the chemical waste will kill you)

So yes, If a GM does use out game knowledge or the encounters are written before the run even started, it won't help.

[PoliteMan]

Irion.

The most expensive combo for pharmaceuticals is Anti-Parasites and Inoculation. And that's 450 nuyen for a bonus 12 die on the test. Antibacs and antivirals are less. And Innoculation lasts forever.

But let's say resistance isn't enough, I want complete immunity. I can pick up AntiBac, Binder, or Zeta-Inferon, all for less than 1,000 nuyen apiece. Sure, they have downsides (4S) but I've got 30k in my pocket.

I mean, are you regularly making runs on biowarfare labs on top of unstable nuclear reactors with a zoo full of poisonous paranimals? The core rulebook only has rules for toxins (p.254). Diseases aren't introduced until Augmentation (p.129) and I honestly have no idea where to find the rules for radiation. It has literally never-ever come up and I've had a character defuse a nuclear bomb before.

Yes, I agree, GMs should throw poison, chemical warfare agents, and even radiation against runners. It's good to mix it up and force the characters to adjust their strategies a bit. But that's not something I'm dropping 30-100k on. That's something I'm going to find out through legwork and prepare a counter for, or if not, just suffer through it. Germs don't kill you any deader than one bullet too many, either way I gotta be a sneaky fragger and not get caught.

[Draco18s]

Wow, so you just get yourselve a traume damper at a decant pool to soak damage. And if you get hit for lots of damage you are in a world of hurt anyway. (The reduced systems won't be that bad)

Emphasis on the underlined part. Those nanite systems are designed to help you survive if you get in a world of hurt, and if the point of them is to prevent being in a world of hurt, then why is getting in a world of hurt anyway (so stop bitching) is ok?

[KarmaInferno]

Not sure which part is confusing you, so I'll answer two possibilities.

What he's trying to say is that nanite degradation effect from damage is in no way a "balancing" factor for their ability to be placed in cyberlimbs, since both the implanted version and the cyberlimb version suffer the same effect.



-k