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> Vehicle Speed, Does anyone else read this as: vehicles are slower than people?
longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 05:39 PM
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So I'm looking through the vehicle test rules in the core book in preparation for a run, when I read something that makes me do a double take, and then a triple take, and finally come to dumpshock in terror.
QUOTE
Acceleration
Vehicles have an Acceleration rating that determines their movement
rates. The number to the left of the slash is a vehicle’s Walking rate in
meters per turn. The number to the right is its Running rate. A driver or
drone can attempt to move a greater distance by making a Vehicle
Test (see below). Each hit on the test adds 5 meters
to the vehicle’s movement rate.


So the way I read this is: A large number of vehicles cannot move faster than a running human unless they have a competent driver. A sprinting troll on rollerblades will outpace almost any groundcraft in the game (53 run + hits*2 compared to the fastest car in the core book with run speed 60), and an unaugmented centaur would flatten anyone regardless of their vehicle or prowess.
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Stahlseele
post Aug 7 2011, 05:57 PM
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isn't there somewhere about max speed of vehicle and accelleration is how fast they can go faster than before? @.@
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Aku
post Aug 7 2011, 06:01 PM
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Not really long, because the acceleration rate is the fastest you can increase your speed with in 1 turn., But you would continue to climb towards your speed rating, which is the safest max speed you can go without affecting your handling test.
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longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 06:14 PM
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The way it reads to me is like this:
you have a Eurocar Westwind 3K (Sports Car): Handling=+3; Acceleration=20/60; Speed=240
On you first turn you just trundle along at 20 meters per combat turn.

Next turn you amp it up to 60 (your run speed). Since that is your maximum movement rate, you can't go any faster without making a vehicle test. Anyone would be disappointed with 60m/t, so you make a test and score 5 hits, taking you to a whopping 85m/t.

However, you are an incredible driver with 9 skill, hot-sim, control rig, boosters, 10 response, and 8 edge, so that's not nearly enough. Next turn you get 37 hits (because you roll all sixes or something). Anyway, this takes you up to 245m/t (five over your speed cap) so in stead of slowing down, you roll a crash test at -1 penalty for speeding (which you pass of course).

Next turn you only get one hit, and you're back down to 65 m/t.
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longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Aku @ Aug 7 2011, 11:01 AM) *
Not really long, because the acceleration rate is the fastest you can increase your speed with in 1 turn. But you would continue to climb towards your speed rating, which is the safest max speed you can go without affecting your handling test.

This is how I used to read it, but I can't find a way to twist this so that it says "you can increase your current speed by your acceleration every turn".
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Aku
post Aug 7 2011, 06:18 PM
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no, first turn you get to 20. Second turn, you make a test, and score an acceleration of 85m/turn, ON TOP OF the 20 you were doing, so you're doing 105 now.

Edit to add: I donno, i guess it's just implied to me by the definition of acceleration.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 7 2011, 06:19 PM
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It's one of those wonky 'Broken Rule' things, though it basically works fine. Vehicles can travel (A to B) very quickly, but their *combat* agility is much lower. There's no easy/elegant fix, but it rarely matters anyway.
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TheOOB
post Aug 7 2011, 06:20 PM
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Note that acceleration only really matters for tactical combat, and for chase combat speed is the important factor.
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Crazy Ivan
post Aug 7 2011, 06:20 PM
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Partly why i think that the character speeds are too fast. 30 feet seems to me to be a long way to walk in 3 seconds casually strolling.

An alternate idea I found on another forum drops humans, elves, and orks to 4 meters walking, trolls to 6, and dwarves at 3. For running speeds, human-sized at 12, Trolls at 18, and dwarves at 9. Has anyone else dropped them down to those levels?
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Aku
post Aug 7 2011, 06:25 PM
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I wouldnt think of combat walking as "casually strolling" though. to me it would be more of a "combat hustle" as opposed to an all out run.
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CanRay
post Aug 7 2011, 06:26 PM
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ac·cel·er·a·tion
noun
1. The act of accelerating; increase of speed or velocity.
2. A change in velocity.
3. Mechanics: The time rate of change of velocity with respect to magnitude or direction; the derivative of velocity with respect to time.
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Crazy Ivan
post Aug 7 2011, 06:28 PM
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still, it 10 meters still seems like a long way.
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CanRay
post Aug 7 2011, 06:30 PM
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Ten centimetres, ten metres, ten miles... They all seem the same distance when I'm trying to turn on the kaff pot.
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Aku
post Aug 7 2011, 06:31 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 7 2011, 02:30 PM) *
Ten centimetres, ten metres, ten miles... They all seem the same distance when I'm trying to turn on the kaff pot my lady friend.



fixted...ed
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Kirk
post Aug 7 2011, 06:35 PM
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I think the walking and running are the acceleration effect that applies to movement rate modifiers as per SR4A 149.

So the eurocar can accelerate 20 each turn with no effect on pilot/passenger tests. It can exceed that, however, reaching up to 60 each turn till it reaches maximum speed (thus 60, 120, 180), each time applying the -2 running modifier to pilot and passengers. In fact the running modifier applies whenever the acceleration of the Eurocar exceeds 20 per turn.

But that's how I'm reading the rules, I could be wrong.
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longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 06:37 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 7 2011, 11:19 AM) *
It's one of those wonky 'Broken Rule' things, though it basically works fine. Vehicles can travel (A to B) very quickly, but their *combat* agility is much lower. There's no easy/elegant fix, but it rarely matters anyway.

Thanks for the help. It makes a lot more sense if we only apply these rules to vehicle combat, even though the book should really specify that's how it is (grinds teeth). I think I'll abuse this by having trolls participate in vehicle combat barefoot until they fix the wording.

QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 7 2011, 11:26 AM) *
ac·cel·er·a·tion
noun
1. The act of accelerating; increase of speed or velocity.
2. A change in velocity.
3. Mechanics: The time rate of change of velocity with respect to magnitude or direction; the derivative of velocity with respect to time.

Good·job·that·is·why·I·thought·the·rules·were·wrong·but·
def·i·ni·tions·do·not·help·when·RAW·has·its·own·def·i·ni·tion.
 ▲
▲▲
This site is not very friendly to non-breaking-spaces. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Aku
post Aug 7 2011, 06:39 PM
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Well, the rule you are quoting IS under a section titled "Vehicle Combat", in the "combat" chapter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Aku @ Aug 7 2011, 11:39 AM) *
Well, the rule you are quoting IS under a section titled "Vehicle Combat", in the "combat" chapter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

They don't detail the vehicle stats anywhere else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
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CanRay
post Aug 7 2011, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Aug 7 2011, 01:37 PM) *
Good·job·that·is·why·I·thought·the·rules·were·wrong·but·
def·i·ni·tions·do·not·help·when·RAW·has·its·own·def·i·ni·tion.
You've been here how long and haven't figured out that I'm a drek disturber yet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 7 2011, 11:45 AM) *
You've been here how long and haven't figured out that I'm a drek disturber yet? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

No way. You were one of the reasonable guys in the threads where I was trying to prevent LOS from magic by wearing full body armor, or trying to rig drones with 12 agents in one IP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)
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BishopMcQ
post Aug 7 2011, 07:22 PM
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The following comes from playing SR for too many years:

Use Acceleration as the change (up or down) in speed that can safely be made in a turn. Use Speed as the maximum safe velocity of the vehicle.

Vehicle has Accel 20/60, Speed 240.

Pulling away from the curb at a base of 20m/turn, the rigger sees a group of go-gangers racing down the street. He hits the gas and accelerates at a run (60m/turn). At the end of the turn his new speed is 80m/turn. The rigger continues to give it gas increasing to 140, then 200m/turn. During the acceleration, the rigger is taking a -2 penalty to tests for "running". His Pilot actions are spent avoiding traffic on the road, rather than pushing the acceleration harder.

Looking down the street, he sees a police barricade waiting for the go-gangers. The rigger takes a hard right turn, swinging wide around traffic. (Threshold 2, at -2 DP for still running) Unfortunately, that block is also barricaded off. He slams hard on the brakes, bleeding speed down from 200 to 140m/turn (acceleration used as deceleration), and throws the wheel to the left as he pops it in neutral for a second and does a bootlegger's turn. (Threshold 6, -2 DP) He drifts half of his speed down the block as he completes the turn and puts it back in gear to get the hell out of there.


-------

It's an interpretation of the rules that works in the larger scope and is a bit more dynamic. Supported by RAW, not really, but it's not contradicted either.
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longbowrocks
post Aug 7 2011, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Aug 7 2011, 12:22 PM) *
It's an interpretation of the rules that works in the larger scope and is a bit more dynamic. Supported by RAW, not really, but it's not contradicted either.

I felt it should work that way, but I brought it here because the book does indeed seem to contradict that. It says that your acceleration stats are your movement rates, and sprinting will take you up to the speed rating of the vehicle without penalty.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 7 2011, 08:38 PM
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It really is one of those confusing points. Speed is only relevant out of combat; if a vehicle is moving at speed, it's either in Chase, or exiting combat instantly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It is a logic failure, but it works in practical cases. I think we've used movement rate (person or vehicle) maybe once in my whole Shadowrun career. It's just not important unless you like minis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Mardrax
post Aug 9 2011, 09:28 PM
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A player in my group actually played a street racing rigger once. We alternated between using chase and tactical rules with some homebrew mixed in for good purpose. Both Acceleration and Speed played a pretty integral part, the first mostly at the start and after failed Handling tests.
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