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mmmkay
post Aug 8 2011, 05:44 AM
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I generated some questions after reading the current mystic adept related thread and didn't want to derail their topic.

Is it possible for heightened concentration to sustain more than one spell?

QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 7 2011, 08:28 AM) *
The "boilerplate" mystic adept: Get Heightened Concentration (Digital Grimoire). Use it mostly to ignore the Sustaining penalty (obviously, you can find other uses for it too); with magic 6, that's 3 spells. Increase Reflexes, Increase Agility, and Increase Reaction are my recommendations. You can also take Psyche and then sustain 6 spells with no penalty, although your GM will probably want you to start making addiction checks if you do this every run.


"The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her
task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single
situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic
attribute." (digital grimoire)

I think multiple spells are more than a single distraction and 3 or 6 situational negative dicepool modifiers don't get lumped into one modifier associated with sustaining spells.

My next question came up because I was confused about the exact way that Ways reduce the pp required for adept powers.

I'm just not completely sure what "Characters with this Quality may purchase the following powers at a 25 percent discount (rounding as normal), selecting one power for every two Magic points" (Way of the Adept) means.

Does it mean that any of the following powers get a 25% discount, but that you can only select one of those powers every 2 magic points spent and you have to spend your magic points on other powers that are not in "the following powers"? Or does it mean that you have to select at least one power from the list of "following powers" every 2 magic points and for each power in the list of "following powers" you get a discount? Or does it mean that every 2 magic points your powers that are "following powers" get a discount?

I'm just not certain what that last clause means and I searched but it seems no one else was confused by the wording.

Thanks.
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Manunancy
post Aug 8 2011, 06:24 AM
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My interpretation of it is that each 2 point of magic allow you to pick one power in the list at 25% discount. Once that's done you can spend the rest of your powers freely at the normal rate, and can pick those normal-rate powers either on or off the list. The cap isn't on how many power from the list you can have but on how many of them benefit from the 25% discount.


Note the 'can' in the book's wording - you aren't forced to pick the whole number of discount powers. But doing that would be a bit stupid, if you can't find enough powers in the list to fill the quota, maybe you'd better pick another way.

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mmmkay
post Aug 8 2011, 06:53 AM
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I didn't understand your note at all, perhaps you meant may instead of can? At any rate I think it doesn't affect my understanding of the powers at all. If for each 2 magic points you get one discounted power is the correct reading, then Ways seem mediocre. The only way that seems decent under these conditions is any Way that offers improved reflexes as a discounted power. Improved reflexes at rating 3 is 4 pp so you'll be saving 1 pp which at chargen is 10 BP (the cost of raising your magic by 1 and gaining 1 pp). On the other hand if you want to be really good at adept stuff then you should take a Way for more powers.
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Illume
post Aug 8 2011, 06:58 AM
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It's really not that complicated. You just pick a power from your ways list, and discount it by 25%. Any power points you save, or fraction thereof, can be spent on other powers. And while you can only gt a discount on the powers listed by your way, you can still take any adept power you want, it's just not discounted.
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mmmkay
post Aug 8 2011, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE (Illume @ Aug 7 2011, 10:58 PM) *
It's really not that complicated. You just pick a power from your ways list, and discount it by 25%. Any power points you save, or fraction thereof, can be spent on other powers. You cab only apply the discount to a power on the list, but you can still pick any adept power you want, not just the ones on the listZ


I don't think that's right, because you're not taking into account the "select one power every 2 magic points" clause.
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Illume
post Aug 8 2011, 07:13 AM
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My last post was assuming that you had already picked what power(s) you wanted to discount. You can only have one power discounted per 2 points of magic that you have. So say you have 4 points of magic. 4/2=2, so you can pick two powers from your ways list to have discounted. You're free to pick any other power you want, but the only ones that can be discounted are the ones on that list.
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Manunancy
post Aug 8 2011, 12:27 PM
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I'll reword what I said with some examples to make it clear how I understand the effects : you apply the discount to one power per 2 points of magic, the dicsounted power muist be picked from the and cost 25% less than their normal cost. The power points (or fraction thereof) you've left after that can be spent normaly on whatever power you want, including those on the list. And of course barring those who picked at a discount since they've already been. Though in the case of augmented/boosted attribute, each separate attribute counts as a separate power.

Note that for powers that can be bought at different levels, the discount remains in effect when augmenting the power.

Example :
I create a character with 4 in magic and picks increased agility, reaction and strength powers and invest 1 PP in each. I apply the discount to agility and reaction, which means that in effect I've only spent 2.5 PP (2.5 x2 saved) and have still 1.5 to spend on whatever I want.

Later on the character climbs to a magic of 5, giving one extra PP to play with. If I spend that point to improve strength further, no change. If I spend it on agility or reaction increase, it will cost only .75, letting me free to use .25 PP on whatever I want.

Later still, magic goes to 6. I can pick another power to be discounted.
Let's say I pick a new 1 PP power eligible for the discount. It costs only .75 and I can spend .25 where I want.
If I choose to apply it to an existing power (say improve strength, which I'll suppose hasn't been improved since creation), I'll get back .25 PP which means I now have 1.25 PP to spend on whatever power I want

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UmaroVI
post Aug 8 2011, 12:44 PM
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QUOTE (mmmkay @ Aug 8 2011, 01:44 AM) *
I generated some questions after reading the current mystic adept related thread and didn't want to derail their topic.

Is it possible for heightened concentration to sustain more than one spell?



"The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her
task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single
situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic
attribute." (digital grimoire)

I think multiple spells are more than a single distraction and 3 or 6 situational negative dicepool modifiers don't get lumped into one modifier associated with sustaining spells.


The way sustaining is described in SR4A makes me think it is a single penalty of -2 per spell, rather than several separate -2 penalties. Honestly, though, there's no way to be 100% sure and this is really a "check with your GM" thing.
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 8 2011, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 8 2011, 08:44 AM) *
The way sustaining is described in SR4A makes me think it is a single penalty of -2 per spell, rather than several separate -2 penalties. Honestly, though, there's no way to be 100% sure and this is really a "check with your GM" thing.


I'm reposting from a waay back OOC in a PBP game where this came up. Also keep in mind it takes a complex action to activate and them you must take your action (you cannot save this for later). :

From my read on it it would only apply to one of the spells at most. I am assuming your quoting from the source book it is from-(It's not in War, Street Magic or SR4a--so I don't have that reference). As, per RAW each spell causes a mage to suffer a -2 dice penalty to all other tests, as the caster must concentrate on the sustained spell. I'm not sure something you need to concentrate on can be considered a distraction you can ignore (GM call on that one). Also the problem here is what do you define as a task at hand. In general terms to me that means a single test.

IMHO- that if you don't take the -2 your not concentrating on the spell, your not concentrating on the spell, therefore the spell is no longer being sustained. Another way of putting it is that it is not a distraction, but something that you must concentrate on. Even if allowed, at most though you would be able ignore one sustained spell, or other distraction after spending a complex action to do the task at hand. So in order to cast a stunbolt ignoring the the sustaining a spell modifier you'd have to use two complex actions for the task at hand. You cannot activate and save for later. It is not written clearly but unless this Adept power cost 3 magic, I can't see it overpowering a susatining foci (which costs karma or BP and Nuyen) or living focus (which costs 1 magic point)

There are very few ways to ignore sustaining spells:One is sustaining spell foci, another is bonded spirits. The living focus adept power is another way for a mage to not have to sustain a spell as well, but then the adept ends up sustaining it.

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UmaroVI
post Aug 8 2011, 02:35 PM
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The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and may be be combined with the Adept Centering metamagic.

I'd not considered that it required a Complex Action to activate per "task at hand" rather than per "single situational negative dice pool modifier."

Honestly, there's probably a half-dozen different ways to interpret it. You should probably just ask your GM how this power works. How long does it last when activated? How specific do you have to be about the task? What counts as a single modifier?

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DamienKnight
post Aug 8 2011, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 8 2011, 09:25 AM) *
I'm not sure something you need to concentrate on can be considered a distraction you can ignore (GM call on that one). Also the problem here is what do you define as a task at hand. In general terms to me that means a single test.

Something you need to concentrate on is exactly what this power is for. Thats why they call it 'Heightened CONCENTRATION'.

As a GM, I count each spell sustained as a separate distraction. Allowing a mystic adept to sustain his magic rating/2 in spells without any penalty is game unbalancing, no matter how you interpret the power. Ignoring a single -2 modifier is very powerful, and the power is absolutely worth it even with this limitation.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 8 2011, 04:16 PM
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SR never has had clear dice pool modifiers (especially penalties) stacking rules. To be fair, it rarely comes up (you can't be double blind for example). Recoil is the only case.

Would an adept with Heightened Concentration and Magic 7 suffer -1 or -2 when firing an uncompensated short and then a long burst? While the recoil of short bursts explicitly combine if you fire two in the first shot, it's a lot more vague when firing a long and then short. If they do combine, then the final recoil mod is -1 (2 from short burst + 6 from long burst - 7 from HC). If they don't, it's -2 since it only cancels out the -6 recoil mod from the long burst.

Really I can see it working either way. I think the more liberal interpetion isn't that unbalancing. It's really one of the few worthwhile and unique powers adepts get. It's better for mystic adepts true, but without completely redoing adepts from the ground up that will always be the case.
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Aerospider
post Aug 8 2011, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 8 2011, 03:25 PM) *
IMHO- that if you don't take the -2 your not concentrating on the spell, your not concentrating on the spell, therefore the spell is no longer being sustained. Another way of putting it is that it is not a distraction, but something that you must concentrate on.

This is possibly the most ambitious misuse of semantics I've ever seen. The rules are certainly clear enough that it's unnecessary to ask 'what is a distraction', but to humour the notion: distractions demand concentration. That's the problem they cause - you want to do A but some of your concentration is already spoken for by B, thereby hampering your efforts with A. Has anyone ever asked you for your complete concentration? This is where the phrase comes from.
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Aerospider
post Aug 8 2011, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Aug 8 2011, 05:16 PM) *
Would an adept with Heightened Concentration and Magic 7 suffer -1 or -2 when firing an uncompensated short and then a long burst? While the recoil of short bursts explicitly combine if you fire two in the first shot, it's a lot more vague when firing a long and then short. If they do combine, then the final recoil mod is -1 (2 from short burst + 6 from long burst - 7 from HC). If they don't, it's -2 since it only cancels out the -6 recoil mod from the long burst.

Firing a short then long would result in -2 then -8 respectively. The adept could ignore the -2 if he used a complex action to focus first, but he can't do this for the second simple action, so the smart move would be to go long then short which is -5 (fully ignored) then -8, assuming the long burst is more valuable to you.

If possible, the even smarter move would be to go full auto and split the rounds between your targets, since this is only one action. Ah, unless it's tests not actions, in which case there's no extra gain.
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 8 2011, 05:14 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 8 2011, 12:36 PM) *
This is possibly the most ambitious misuse of semantics I've ever seen. The rules are certainly clear enough that it's unnecessary to ask 'what is a distraction', but to humour the notion: distractions demand concentration. That's the problem they cause - you want to do A but some of your concentration is already spoken for by B, thereby hampering your efforts with A. Has anyone ever asked you for your complete concentration? This is where the phrase comes from.


I'm propbably reading more to it than intended, but I am also considering this in regards to other sustaining spell negation methods in terms of cost. My argument there was that sustaining a specll requires you to concentrate on the spell. Heightened concentration does not mean you are concentrating on the sustained spell but rather you are able to fully concentrate on the task at hand and are ignoring one distraction. If you are ignoring the sustaining penality to me that means your not concentrating on the spell and therefore no longer sustaining it.

Draconian interpretation? Yeah probably, but just like the slow spell this is a poorly worded ability.
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Aerospider
post Aug 8 2011, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 8 2011, 06:14 PM) *
I'm propbably reading more to it than intended, but I am also considering this in regards to other sustaining spell negation methods in terms of cost. My argument there was that sustaining a specll requires you to concentrate on the spell. Heightened concentration does not mean you are concentrating on the sustained spell but rather you are able to fully concentrate on the task at hand and are ignoring one distraction. If you are ignoring the sustaining penality to me that means your not concentrating on the spell and therefore no longer sustaining it.

Draconian interpretation? Yeah probably, but just like the slow spell this is a poorly worded ability.

But what you've described there is exactly what happens without Heightened Concentration. You take your eye off the spell and you lose it along with the -2 modifier.

I would equate the interpretation you give to the following. Adept on a very narrow ledge performs a melee attack. GM imposes a negative modifier for being on a narrow ledge. Player decides to use his Heightened Concentration power to ignore the modifier. GM rules that the adept falls off the ledge through lack of concentration on said ledge.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 8 2011, 06:07 PM
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The only point of debate I've seen about this is whether sustaining penalties stack into a single penalty that can all be ignored at once. I say no, solely because of balance. Others prefer it to be (much) more powerful. Just pick one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Aerospider
post Aug 8 2011, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 8 2011, 07:07 PM) *
The only point of debate I've seen about this is whether sustaining penalties stack into a single penalty that can all be ignored at once. I say no, solely because of balance. Others prefer it to be (much) more powerful. Just pick one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's no ambiguity there either.

'For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a -2 dice penalty on all other actions.'
SR4a p.184

So that's a modifier per spell, which should therefore be considered distinct. Otherwise the wording would be 'a negative modifier equal to twice the number of spells'.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 8 2011, 06:32 PM
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Didn't say ambiguity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, that's how some people *play* it.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 8 2011, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 8 2011, 11:28 AM) *
There's no ambiguity there either.

'For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a -2 dice penalty on all other actions.'
SR4a p.184

So that's a modifier per spell, which should therefore be considered distinct. Otherwise the wording would be 'a negative modifier equal to twice the number of spells'.


*For the other side of the argument*

However, it is a single "Spell Sustaining" penalty that scales with the number of spellls being sustained. Thus a single negative modifier that can be Negated by an Adept with the appropriate Magic Rating and the Heightened Concentration Adept Power.

This is no different than Range Penalties that can be eliminated. Range penalties scale at -1/-3/-6, and is a SINGLE penalty. It is not a -1 AND a -3 AND a -6 resulting in a -10 for being at extreme Range. Same Principle for the Spell sustainment penalty. It is -2 per spell, but it is a single penalty.

Heightened Concentration can also potentially last far longer than 1 Complex Action.
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Rubic
post Aug 8 2011, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 8 2011, 01:43 PM) *
*For the other side of the argument*

However, it is a single "Spell Sustaining" penalty that scales with the number of spellls being sustained. Thus a single negative modifier that can be Negated by an Adept with the appropriate Magic Rating and the Heightened Concentration Adept Power.

This is no different than Range Penalties that can be eliminated. Range penalties scale at -1/-3/-6, and is a SINGLE penalty. It is not a -1 AND a -3 AND a -6 resulting in a -10 for being at extreme Range. Same Principle for the Spell sustainment penalty. It is -2 per spell, but it is a single penalty.

Heightened Concentration can also potentially last far longer than 1 Complex Action.

A more accurate example might be the duality of the bonus from firing point blank and the penalty for ranged weapon in melee. One is a +3, the other is a -2. Does the penalty also negate the bonus, or do they stack? Either way, the bonus exists when you get rid of the penalty.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 8 2011, 08:41 PM
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QUOTE (Aerospider @ Aug 8 2011, 07:28 PM) *
There's no ambiguity there either.

'For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a -2 dice penalty on all other actions.'
SR4a p.184

So that's a modifier per spell, which should therefore be considered distinct. Otherwise the wording would be 'a negative modifier equal to twice the number of spells'.


I would point out that SR doesn't use consistent writing style (since SR uses a 5000 authors and not style manual pooling method of writing books). Even with that, I haven't seen anything written in that style. I could see the use of "every spell sustained suffers an additional -2 modifier" being used by whoever wrote the BF section (who didn't seem to write the FA section) if he wrote the sustaining spell section.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 8 2011, 08:45 PM
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So, here's a question: how many people think that it works like this:

You spend a Complex Action, and set your HC to, say, "Called Shot Penalty." Then you can run around making called shots all you want with no penalty until you spend a Complex Action to set it to a different task.

Versus

You spend a Complex Action, and set your HC to "Called Shot Penalty." Then your next called shot - which you had to have planned, ie, you can't do this an hour before a fight, but you can do it right before taking a sniper shot - ignores the penalty, but you then have to take another Complex Action to set it again.

Note that this is a totally separate question from whether 2 sustained spells can be negated with HC at the same time or not.
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mmmkay
post Aug 8 2011, 09:18 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 8 2011, 12:45 PM) *
So, here's a question: how many people think that it works like this:

You spend a Complex Action, and set your HC to, say, "Called Shot Penalty." Then you can run around making called shots all you want with no penalty until you spend a Complex Action to set it to a different task.

Versus

You spend a Complex Action, and set your HC to "Called Shot Penalty." Then your next called shot - which you had to have planned, ie, you can't do this an hour before a fight, but you can do it right before taking a sniper shot - ignores the penalty, but you then have to take another Complex Action to set it again.

Note that this is a totally separate question from whether 2 sustained spells can be negated with HC at the same time or not.


I'd vote that it works the first way. Mainly because the single situational dice pool modifier is "Called Shot Penalty" and Heightened Concentration works for an arbitrary amount of time.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 8 2011, 09:25 PM
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QUOTE (mmmkay @ Aug 8 2011, 03:18 PM) *
I'd vote that it works the first way. Mainly because the single situational dice pool modifier is "Called Shot Penalty" and Heightened Concentration works for an arbitrary amount of time.

Indeed...
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