[X] My Assistant

[mmmkay]

I'll reword what I said with some examples to make it clear how I understand the effects : you apply the discount to one power per 2 points of magic, the dicsounted power muist be picked from the and cost 25% less than their normal cost. The power points (or fraction thereof) you've left after that can be spent normaly on whatever power you want, including those on the list. And of course barring those who picked at a discount since they've already been. Though in the case of augmented/boosted attribute, each separate attribute counts as a separate power.

Note that for powers that can be bought at different levels, the discount remains in effect when augmenting the power.

Example :
I create a character with 4 in magic and picks increased agility, reaction and strength powers and invest 1 PP in each. I apply the discount to agility and reaction, which means that in effect I've only spent 2.5 PP (2.5 x2 saved) and have still 1.5 to spend on whatever I want.

Later on the character climbs to a magic of 5, giving one extra PP to play with. If I spend that point to improve strength further, no change. If I spend it on agility or reaction increase, it will cost only .75, letting me free to use .25 PP on whatever I want.

Later still, magic goes to 6. I can pick another power to be discounted.
Let's say I pick a new 1 PP power eligible for the discount. It costs only .75 and I can spend .25 where I want.
If I choose to apply it to an existing power (say improve strength, which I'll suppose hasn't been improved since creation), I'll get back .25 PP which means I now have 1.25 PP to spend on whatever power I want

This clears up almost everything about Ways. Thanks manunancy!

I still have a lingering question about what 25% discount rounding normally means. 0.25 pp powers get discounted to 0.1875, 0.188, 0.19, 0.2? Which decimal do we round to is what I normal ask, but there are times in SR when you round down, so I'm not sure what to think here.

[HunterHerne]

This clears up almost everything about Ways. Thanks manunancy!

I still have a lingering question about what 25% discount rounding normally means. 0.25 pp powers get discounted to 0.1875, 0.188, 0.19, 0.2? Which decimal do we round to is what I normal ask, but there are times in SR when you round down, so I'm not sure what to think here.

I've seen it done as .1875, only (but I haven`t had a chance to play with anyone who actually used the ways or Adept geas). That said, it is kind of an unwieldy number, so I would ask your GM what he prefers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I've seen it done as .1875, only (but I haven`t had a chance to play with anyone who actually used the ways or Adept geas). That said, it is kind of an unwieldy number, so I would ask your GM what he prefers.

I use the raw number, so 0.1875. Keeping track is a little more difficult, but not that difficult. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

As I've always understood it, you certainly can't 'set' HC to 'Called Shots' and just keep making them. It works for one shot.

[HunterHerne]

As I've always understood it, you certainly can't 'set' HC to 'Called Shots' and just keep making them. It works for one shot.

Huh. Hadn't considered that. I think my Troll Archer NPC has a new trick to use (He's mostly background information anyway.)

[Aerospider]

However, it is a single "Spell Sustaining" penalty that scales with the number of spellls being sustained. Thus a single negative modifier that can be Negated by an Adept with the appropriate Magic Rating and the Heightened Concentration Adept Power.

No it isn't. Read the text/my post.

This is no different than Range Penalties that can be eliminated.

Yes it is.

SR4a p.150
"The range modifier appears at the top of the appropriate range column."

Notice that it refers to a singular range modifier whilst the spell sustaining section refers to multiple modifiers.

[Aerospider]

A more accurate example might be the duality of the bonus from firing point blank and the penalty for ranged weapon in melee. One is a +3, the other is a -2. Does the penalty also negate the bonus, or do they stack? Either way, the bonus exists when you get rid of the penalty.

For the record, it's +2 for point blank and -3 for being in melee. Net modifier is negative.

[Aerospider]

As I've always understood it, you certainly can't 'set' HC to 'Called Shots' and just keep making them. It works for one shot.

Enthusiastically seconded.

Thirded by my agent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Notice that it refers to a singular range modifier whilst the spell sustaining section refers to multiple modifiers.

It refers to Multiple Spells, not Multiple Modifiers. It is a Single, incrementing modifier, dependant upon the number of spells you are sustaining. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

Are we going to need a German edition to solve this? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

[UmaroVI]

Ich bin ein Schattenläufer.

Ah, German. The language of very angry sounding music and clear Shadowrun rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ich bin ein Schattenläufer.

Ah, German. The language of very angry sounding music and clear Shadowrun rules.

Heh... Too bad I can't read (or even understand, really) German. It does sound cool though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Aerospider]

Ich bin ein Schattenläufer.

Ah, German. The language of very angry sounding music and clear Shadowrun rules.

Without cheating (honest), I'm going to take a stab at "I am a rules lawyer".

[Mardrax]

Without cheating (honest), I'm going to take a stab at "I am a rules lawyer".

Shadowwalker. "Rules lawyer" would be "Regel(n)anwalt." Or something similar. My Germa's a tad rusty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I'll also have to side with Yerameyahu And Aero's one action with ignored modifier for a single complex to be spent right before the action. Anything else would be silly. You're centering, then doing something. Not to mention it would be fairly to ridiculously OP.

On rounding of power costs: for ease of use, add the total cost of all discounted powers together, then discount the total. Rounding up to the nearest .25 point might look better but is unnecessary.

[Fyndhal]

Here's a head scratcher. Say I'm an adept with Magic 6, HC and the Blind negative quality. The penalty for not being able to see your target is -6.

What penalties are therefore enforced on me for being blind?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Here's a head scratcher. Say I'm an adept with Magic 6, HC and the Blind negative quality. The penalty for not being able to see your target is -6.

What penalties are therefore enforced on me for being blind?

Heh... Depends upon if you are a Master of Ninjutsu, have the Blind Fighting Martial Arts Maneuver, and have the Motion Sense Adept Power. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If '1 Complex Action to ignore one penalty for one action' is too weak at your table, consider making it a Simple Action to activate. Making it a passive 'always-on' power is just crazy.

That's the real issue. There's nothing terribly wrong with stacking all the spell sustaining penalties into one… *if* you're not also letting them cheat with 'it lasts forever'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If '1 Complex Action to ignore one penalty for one action' is too weak at your table, consider making it a Simple Action to activate. Making it a passive 'always-on' power is just crazy.

That's the real issue. There's nothing terribly wrong with stacking all the spell sustaining penalties into one… *if* you're not also letting them cheat with 'it lasts forever'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We have always treated the Activation time as a Complex Action, followed by a Duration of "Until the Situation Changes" or "Until you want to alter the Penalty affected." At that point, it last a bit of time, but rarely (I would say never, as of now) extends beyond a scene, but has the potential to do so.

In fact. The Characters in our campaign with this adept power actually alter the Coverage of Penalties fairly regularly, as the scene progresses and the situation changes. It has never been over powered or a problem in the slightest. But then again, we also do not have Adepts with Magic of 6+ using it either. This may make a big difference, depending upon the table it is used at.

[Yerameyahu]

Whatever happens at your (I won't even say it) table, the fact is that there's an 'interpretation' that lets people sustain 3 spells of any Force for free. Or, as above, Call every Shot. Or negate Blindness forever. These would be bad.

[Mardrax]

Permanently negating blindness forever wouldn't be so bad.
Assume the character has 6 Magic. That means he's either spent 10 BP or 30 karma to most of the time do nothing but effectively cancel out a 10 BP negative quality. Good on him.

[Yerameyahu]

That's true, but he can always change his mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And back. And he's still great on astral, and with astral sight.

[Aerospider]

That's true, but he can always change his mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And back. And he's still great on astral, and with astral sight.

I wouldn't say there's necessarily anything wrong with a player spending 10 BP, receiving 10 BP and achieving a net gain. He's used up 10 of his 35 negative quality allownce and a whole power point of his adept powers in the process, so having alternatives like the astral (more expenditure for an adept) is fair enough I'd say. Besides, there are always going to be countless ways a player can get more of what he wants from one character design than from another and that's no bad thing. Think how boring it would be if it never mattered which way you build your character.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* It's hardly the biggest example of abuse, sure. There's no reason to be Blind in the first place, it's a sub-optimal NQ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The point is that it doesn't make sense for that to be a legal use of HC.

[Rubic]

*shrug* It's hardly the biggest example of abuse, sure. There's no reason to be Blind in the first place, it's a sub-optimal NQ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The point is that it doesn't make sense for that to be a legal use of HC.

So you're saying Daredevil isn't using a variant of this sort of idea? He's a blind guy... WHO CAN SEE! Basically, the above character is never blind at the expense of colorblindness.

edit: To spell out the fun, you can challenge the character through making color patterns important. He can already "see" the matrix, so make it in person stuff.

"Did you get the info?"
"I think so."
*looks* "That's a stocks sheet for..."
"..."
"..."
"Blackmail?"
"Blackmail."

[Yerameyahu]

I'm pretty sure Daredevil has like sonar or something, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Anyway, someone mentioned above: this doesn't let you see, it just removes the -6 'Blind' penalty. This penalty never really made sense anyway, because most runners have DPs in the 12-18 range. Blind means you can't see, -infinity.