[X] My Assistant

[Draco18s]

Mild Allergy (Sunlight), Sensitive System, Moderate Addiction (Alcohol)

Careful with these, I see an immediate 2 Notoriety, which is a negative dice pool modifier for social situations.

[Mayhem_2006]

Well I did manage to get a character sheet from the Face. Mage and GA have yet to get me one.

What the?

Nobody plays at my table, whatever the game, without me seeing or better, having a copy of - having a copy of their character sheet.

Not because I suspect they might cheat, but because I want to know what the characters can do so I don't set an impossible task thinking its easy, or accidently kill them with somethign I thought they should be able to deal with, - or vice versa.

I can't imagine starting a game without seeing the characters sheets.

[HunterHerne]

What the?

Nobody plays at my table, whatever the game, without me seeing or better, having a copy of - having a copy of their character sheet.

Not because I suspect they might cheat, but because I want to know what the characters can do so I don't set an impossible task thinking its easy, or accidently kill them with somethign I thought they should be able to deal with, - or vice versa.

I can't imagine starting a game without seeing the characters sheets.

I have to agree, here. Not just for these reasons, either. There are times when you don't want the characters to roll (sometimes, having them roll a perception check tells them they need to be on the lookout for something. In this case, roll the highest pool+1 for each other in the area, similar to NPC checks, to determine if, and how well, any of them hear/see/smell anything), and having their actual stats helps a lot.

[suoq]

This is an edit. I knew I missed something (see below) but wasn't awake enough to catch it.

Trimming down

C 5
EDGE 4
Con 4, Etiquette 3, Negotiation 3
Tailored Phermones 2
First Impressions

Neg Qualities: Moderate Addiction (Alcohol)

As noted above, an addiction to Alcohol is not a good quality for a face. You and him should work out how this will play out at the table just to get you both on the same page.

Assuming First Impressions & Con, I see (still half awake) 5+4+2+2 = 13 dice so 4-6 hits are to be expected. Let's look at this closer because the statistics may be odd.
1) 1/3 of the dice are hits on average. So you're looking at an average of 4 1/3 hits every time he rolls. You're going to see mostly 4s, then 5s, then 3's then 6's.
2) If he rolls 2 hits the he'll probably edge his roll, depending on how often you refresh edge. (Last night I burned edge like a maniac because I knew I could...) So, assuming he rolls a 2, he'll then be re-rolling 11 dice for 3 2/3 more shits, so 2's are likely to become 6's, possibly 5's.
3) If he rolls just 1 hit, he'll be re-rolling 12 dice for 4 more hits, so again, 5's.
So yes, you're should expect to see a LOT of 4-6. If he's rerolling on 3 because edge refreshes often, then those are going to be a lot of 6's as well.

If he's edging first that's 17 dice. 5 2/3 hits, including at least 2 6's so probably 6 hits every roll. But to edge first all the time, edge has to be refreshing really fast. I'm betting on the rerolls of 1's and 2's.

----------

As noted above, this is NOT a high pool face. Actually, my generalist is tossing more social dice than this guy is. I'm not understanding Angelone's logic. 4-6 seem right to me as detailed above.

Hopefully, this gets your expectations in place so that you can build effective oppositions.

Things to think about:
1) The opposition has edge as well. If they don't use it, the characters have a huge advantage because edge moves the bottom of the bell curve (1-2) to the top of the bell curve (5-6). Edge often turns an expect loss to a win and only leaves the close calls.
2) Social modifiers matter. Did the receptionist and the doc just agree to let a drunk cop leave with a corpse?
3) Detailed actions matter. Did they enter the transfer of custody of the corpse into the computer using the Lone Star employee ID number? And isn't he an ex-employee? Shouldn't the computer have red-flagged the action? Go though things step by step, even if just in your head or on paper, because that's where good ideas fall apart.
4) Appropriate challenges matter. He's a face. He's going to pwn the wageslaves. Once the team works as a team, getting a corpse out of a morgue is not meant to be a challenge. This is the kind of team you hire to extract a live body from his bodyguards. Grabbing a corpse from a morgue should be a milk run.

[HunterHerne]

Trimming down
As noted above, an addiction to Alcohol is not a good quality for a face. You and him should work out how this will play out at the table just to get you both on the same page.

Assuming First Impressions & Con, I see (half awake) 5+4+2 = 11 dice so 4-6 hits are to be expected. Let's look at this closer because the statistics may be odd.
1) 1/3 of the dice are hits on average. So you're looking at an average of 3 3/4 hits every time he rolls. You're going to see mostly 4s, then 3s, then 5's and 6's.
2) If he rolls 2 hits the he'll probably edge his roll, depending on how often you refresh edge. (Last night I burned edge like a maniac because I knew I could...) So, assuming he rolls a 2, he'll then be re-rolling 9 dice for 3 more shits, so 2's are likely to become 5's, possibly 4's or 6's.
3) If he rolls just 1 hit, he'll be re-rolling 10 dice for 3 more hits, maybe, just maybe 4, so again, 4's and the occasional 5.
So yes, you're should expect to see a LOT of 4's and 5's. If he's rerolling on 3 because edge refreshes often, then those are going to be a lot of 5's and 6's as well.

If he's edging first that's 15 dice. 5 hits, including at least 2 6's so probably 5-6 hits every roll. But to edge first all the time, edge has to be refreshing really fast. I'm betting on the rerolls of 1's and 2's.

----------

As noted above, this is NOT a high pool face. Actually, my generalist is tossing more social dice than this guy is. I'm not understanding Angelone's logic. 4-6 seem right to me as detailed above.

Hopefully, this gets your expectations in place so that you can build effective oppositions.

Things to think about:
1) The opposition has edge as well. If they don't use it, the characters have a huge advantage because edge moves the bottom of the bell curve (1-2) to the top of the bell curve (5-6). Edge often turns an expect loss to a win and only leaves the close calls.
2) Social modifiers matter. Did the receptionist and the doc just agree to let a drunk cop leave with a corpse?
3) Detailed actions matter. Did they enter the transfer of custody of the corpse into the computer using the Lone Star employee ID number? And isn't he an ex-employee? Shouldn't the computer have red-flagged the action? Go though things step by step, even if just in your head or on paper, because that's where good ideas fall apart.
4) Appropriate challenges matter. He's a face. He's going to pwn the wageslaves. Once the team works as a team, getting a corpse out of a morgue is not meant to be a challenge. This is the kind of team you hire to extract a live body from his bodyguards. Grabbing a corpse from a morgue should be a milk run.

I realize you said half asleep, but you did miss his Tailored Pheromones 2.

[Nath]

Regarding the First Impression quality, remember the rules actually reads "Whenever attempting to fit into a new environment - such as infiltrating a group or trying to meet contact in a new city - the character gains a +2 dice pool modifier on any Social Tests during the first meeting." That is, the bonus should only applies when you are or pretend being a newcomer.

Using First Impression bonus means you're playing that angle. Against M. Johnson, it should first give in a -1 modifier the other way because any M. Johnson should be suspicious against any newcomer, and then ends up with something like "Since you're new to the business and I'm doing you a favor in giving you work, you shouldn't expect being paid as established pros, don't you ?" With a security guard, you can't be trying to "fit in" and claims it's an "extraordinary, unscheduled security check ordered by the head office". So your perfect roll may simply result in him not firing at you and explaining "We have different security procedures in this facility, sir. Wait here while I call the security officer so he checks your access rights."

[Draco18s]

I realize you said half asleep, but you did miss his Tailored Pheromones 2.

Still only puts him at 13 dice. Social rolls have the greatest number of modifiers in the game. The face at our table was rolling 13 dice via the matrix. So he wasn't getting about half his dice pool (pheromones, glamor, first impression*, or a handful of other things I don't recall offhand).

*It was his own contact

[suoq]

I realize you said half asleep, but you did miss his Tailored Pheromones 2.

You're absolutely correct. I'm doing a re-edit for clairity's sake. It's interesting to see how much of a difference those two dice actually make.

[suoq]

Regarding the First Impression quality, remember the rules actually reads "Whenever attempting to fit into a new environment - such as infiltrating a group or trying to meet contact in a new city - the character gains a +2 dice pool modifier on any Social Tests during the first meeting." That is, the bonus should only applies when you are or pretend being a newcomer.

I see no bonus for pretending to be a newcomer.

Against M. Johnson, it should first give in a -1 modifier the other way because any M. Johnson should be suspicious against any newcomer, and then ends up with something like "Since you're new to the business and I'm doing you a favor in giving you work, you shouldn't expect being paid as established pros, don't you ?"

I have no clue where you think meeting this particular Mr. Johnson for the first time means you're new to the business.

That being said, the -1 is NOT given by First Impressions. The social modifiers are given by the situation regardless of the presence of first impression. The same social modifier you give for meeting the face for the first time should apply to meeting everyone at the table for the first time. The difference is, this face can get past that social modifier (meeting people for the first time) easier because he makes a good first impression.

[Nath]

I see no bonus for pretending to be a newcomer.

YMMV. What if the face is impersonating a corporate employee that would be a newcomer to the facility. He would really be "attempting to fit into a new environment" as he never worked here, but he isn't a real newcomer, as he don't intend on showing up at work on next monday morning.

I have no clue where you think meeting this particular Mr. Johnson for the first time means you're new to the business.

I'd count a Sprawl Shadows as a "new environment". If the Johnson already heard of you, which fixers and runners you worked with and for how long, then it's too late to try to "fit in". If he never heard of you, he should be be at least a bit suspicious: he's about to offer money and ask for something illegal, and he has no way to know how skillfull you are and if you are the kind to talk to the cops or a rival corporation.

In the end, it basically expresses what was originally my point: the GM has the final say on when First Impression +2 bonus should apply or not, not just because it's a first encounter.

[Draco18s]

I'd count a Sprawl Shadows as a "new environment". If the Johnson already heard of you, which fixers and runners you worked with and for how long, then it's too late to try to "fit in". If he never heard of you, he should be be at least a bit suspicious: he's about to offer money and ask for something illegal, and he has no way to know how skillfull you are and if you are the kind to talk to the cops or a rival corporation.

This is what Street Cred is for. If he's heard of you you get Street Cred and not First Impression. If he hasn't, you get First Impression and not Street Cred.

[suoq]

Advice to the OP based on this page: Do not attempt to justify overthinking. Down that path lies overcomplications and, in the end, you're gonna want simplicity over details.

As an example, yeah, they didn't check the computers to see if the ID was legit. Don't sweat it. It's just a possibility, not a universal requirement. Going for a detailed simulation based on reality as you see it is gong to give everyone else a headache.

[AppliedCheese]

Well, the simplest method of figuring how good someone is going to be is to add up the dice. So here we have:

CHA 5
CON 4
Pheromones 2

For a baseline DP of 11, even if stripped naked in a jail cell. Divide by 3 for average sucesses. So, you can assume at anything he tries to do, he'll start with 3-4 sucesses. Of course, if he's working in anything other than English, he's going to be limited by his lack of language and merely competent japanese.

Depends on where and how you run if that matters or not...but keep in mind, ironically, the less educated his mark is, the more of an issue. A truck driver in Atzlan will probably not speak english, or speak it poorly, and will find that reagrdless of how charismatic your character is, its hard to convince him he should go out of his way for "ME TARZAN! YOU DIRVE TRUCK! BIG CITY! LATE!" There's a whole series of rules for how language limits social skills (fairly easily bypassed with a linguasoft.)

Now, add gear. He doesn't have any. To include a commlink, which is an issue in its own right...but ignoring that, it means that the base Dice Pool we ID'd earlier is still a flat 11.

Add traits. First impressions...still not looking at more than an average of 4 successes without edge.

So, what can he do? This is what defines how to challenge and accomodate him.

Well, an average secretary with a some time spent dealing with people for her boss (CHA 3, SOCIAL 1) is going to score 1x sucess. So, net advantage is 3 sucesses for the face...pretty good. Minor social modifiers, such as this being a stupid idea for the secretary, will pretty quickly eat that down to 2 sucesses. Good, but not exceptional, unless the whole team pitches in to make the sell convincing. Enough to cause a few minor complications, delays, maybe he doesn't have to fill the e-form in triplicate, but needs to put on one of these visitor badges...

Any large modifiers have a good chance of a net tie or worse. Not every time, but enough times. So, his base DP is not really that threatening for pulling of the crazy, and will likely get eaten for lunch by a true Social Monster (Mr. J for instance).

Which leaves us with Edge.

The current char needs to spend edge just to get into what is considered "primary field" ranges (15-20 DP) for moderately optimized tables. If all is stacked for him, and the usual 50% ratio of exploding dice...call it 7 sucesses base line. Which is enough to crush most social resistance from minor obstacles like a no-frills secretary (5 net hits for a minor issue against our 3/1 secretary from before), with a good chance to pull off very negative things with only minimal complications (3 hits), or even go toe to toe with a pro-Mr. J and get something out of it (1 net hit versus an 18 DP Mr. J).

As a Face, its his job to burn edge doing social stuff, just like a sammy burns edge killing stuff. So, you should anticipate during major events (run negotiation, pay out, critical cons, explaining why the extractee is terminally dead but its really not your fault...) that he will. Plan on it accordingly.

The biggest issue with social chars is that they are rarely wondering if they might need edge around the next corner, the way a sammy might save edge shooting a guard just in case there's a cyber zombie around the corner that REALLY needs it. So try to create situations where he wonders if he might need it for something more than beating the secretary, or create enough social interaction that he can't just burn edge every time he talks.

[Aerospider]

Careful with these, I see an immediate 2 Notoriety, which is a negative dice pool modifier for social situations.

AFB so correct me if I'm wrong (applaud if I'm right) - isn't Notoriety subtracted specifically from Street Cred? So if you have no cred there's no penalty for notoriety...?

[Draco18s]

AFB so correct me if I'm wrong (applaud if I'm right) - isn't Notoriety subtracted specifically from Street Cred? So if you have no cred there's no penalty for notoriety...?

You are correct.
However, for most runners (i.e. those with 15 karma or more, which you should have by your second run), Notoriety is effectively a DP penalty.

[Angelone]

With a dicepool of 13 even with edge on an opposed test with social mods his successes seem high.

[Glyph]

Honestly, looking at the character, it doesn't look even remotely like any kind of powergaming build. He got a lucky roll, and the GM maybe let that lucky roll do a bit too much. No biggie. I think the OP just needs to take some of the advice on what a face can, or can't, get away with without some good preparations or an assist from the team's hacker. I don't think any more drastic measures will be needed - it is hardly a gamebreaking dice pool.

[noonesshowmonkey]

I may be mistaken, but a Home Turf bonus of +2 dice is pretty reasonable for anyone opposing a con in a facility that has a measure of security. In this case, the Home Turf is simply procedural methods, body language and habits, vocabulary, specific ID requirements etc. that all stack up and make a con-man stand out against the system.

Combine this with Suspicious and Harmful for a -4 DP penalty and maybe another -1 for having Time to Evaluate The Situation and you are getting to a very, very reduced DP. Especially if the character is running ~13 dice. Even a lackey with 3 Cha and 1 skill will be rolling 4 + 2 = 6 dice against 13 - 4 = 9 dice.

Depending on the difficulty of the Con, the Threshold of the test is then set. A simple con is 1 die - having someone look the other way at the right time or bluffing a hand of cards. From there, things only go up. Generally, I tend to look at the DP penalties of social checks based on the results (harmful, disastrous etc.) to determine a threshold. Also taken into account is the complexity of the Con, its plausibility and the time taken to execute it. Conning your way through a door is a totally different animal than trying to get through the door and get clearance to take a body.

Mechanically speaking, Thresholds are a fantastic tool to combat DP bloat. When players have impossible DPs and try to accomplish impossible tasks, set an Impossible Threshold (4 or more). They may still make it, but the difficulty of the task should make the test itself in doubt. Which is the whole point.

Finally, as other users have noted, there is a lot of room in Social checks for Teamwork tests. (They are social, after all, and require a few people to work!) Conning the front desk person is one thing. Conning the morgue manager - the guy who is responsible for the bodies themselves - is a horse of a different color. And heck, why not have a few morgue workers in the room chime in. All of these things can be used to increase the difficulty of a social test without punishing the player for a high dice pool.

And, as I suggested last thread, you should always be testing your oppositions' dice pools against your players known dice pools. Get their sheets, learn their capabilities and build challenges to suit. In the case of social checks, the kinds of mental exercises contained in this thread can help you set boundaries between the plausible and implausible, and help you adjudicate these kinds of conflicts in game without having to lead to break down.

[Mardrax]

Depending on the difficulty of the Con, the Threshold of the test is then set. A simple con is 1 die - having someone look the other way at the right time or bluffing a hand of cards. From there, things only go up. Generally, I tend to look at the DP penalties of social checks based on the results (harmful, disastrous etc.) to determine a threshold. Also taken into account is the complexity of the Con, its plausibility and the time taken to execute it. Conning your way through a door is a totally different animal than trying to get through the door and get clearance to take a body.

Mechanically speaking, Thresholds are a fantastic tool to combat DP bloat. When players have impossible DPs and try to accomplish impossible tasks, set an Impossible Threshold (4 or more). They may still make it, but the difficulty of the task should make the test itself in doubt. Which is the whole point.

Yeah. No.
Social tests are opposed tests. Opposed tests do not have Thresholds, beyond those set by the defender's roll.
The fact that what you're trying to do is nigh on impossible should be reflected in the dice pool modifiers. Double dipping that will make people react less than enthusiastically, to my experiecne, anyway. As alwways, YMMV.

[Nath]

I may be mistaken, but a Home Turf bonus of +2 dice is pretty reasonable for anyone opposing a con in a facility that has a measure of security. In this case, the Home Turf is simply procedural methods, body language and habits, vocabulary, specific ID requirements etc. that all stack up and make a con-man stand out against the system.

"We don't like your kind around here..."

[noonesshowmonkey]

Yeah. No.
Social tests are opposed tests. Opposed tests do not have Thresholds, beyond those set by the defender's roll.
The fact that what you're trying to do is nigh on impossible should be reflected in the dice pool modifiers. Double dipping that will make people react less than enthusiastically, to my experiecne, anyway. As alwways, YMMV.

Opposed tests aren't always head to head equal. All tests have a threshold set at 1 by default, opposed or otherwise. Likewise, any test can have its threshold increased. What if one person is trying something significantly more difficult than the other? Situational modifiers already exist to express a change in circumstance, but not necessarily in the complexity or difficulty of the task at hand. That is what a Threshold is. I think that the ruling would stand on terra firma.

[toturi]

All tests have a threshold set at 1 by default, opposed or otherwise.

The only way I think that the ruling would stand on terra firma is if you have an explicit rules quote to back it up.

[Glyph]

Social skills are primarily limited by negative modifiers, rules-wise. They don't use thresholds, because they are opposed tests, and the rules are very explicit that thresholds are never applied to opposed tests (SR4, pg. 57). The number of successes does determine the degree of success, as the examples illustrate.

[Aerospider]

Opposed tests aren't always head to head equal. All tests have a threshold set at 1 by default, opposed or otherwise. Likewise, any test can have its threshold increased. What if one person is trying something significantly more difficult than the other? Situational modifiers already exist to express a change in circumstance, but not necessarily in the complexity or difficulty of the task at hand. That is what a Threshold is. I think that the ruling would stand on terra firma.

Wrong I'm afraid. Opposed tests are indeed head-to-head equal (if you're discounting the difference in dice pools that is). The text is clear enough IIRC (would quote, but AFB) that opposed tests are one character against another in such a way that the only opposition to one roll is the number of hits scored by the other.

It's also incorrect to assert "All tests have a threshold set at 1 by default". The vast majority of tests with any kind of threshold require that you exceed the threshold. If all tests had an implied threshold of 1 then a single success would almost always be considered a failure, which is not right.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Feh. Threshold of 0 makes a success test.

If you wanted a way to use standard SR4 mechanics to return some measure of reason to high dice pool social situations, thresholds are as good a way as any.

Also, head to head tests are only equal if both parties are attempting the same task... if they aren't, then the tests being equal makes very little sense. Combat skills are usually open, but most long term skills are threshold based. Heck, even hacking is threshold based. Social skills could easily function on the same mechanical paradigm, gaining a level of resolution and playability whilst doing so! SR4's rules are clunky, generally poorly written and full of loopholes, aberrations, goofy stuff that makes zero sense and is replete ways to abuse the mechanics to produce results that are utterly insane.