Background Count, A gray area in functionality Options

[longbowrocks]

BC reduces the magic of awakened characters inside it, and the force of pretty much everything else brought inside it. For spells, it's "any previously cast sustained spells brought inside". I see no mention of immediate spells though. I figure the reduction in magic is counted as plenty for those, so any spells cast within the BC do not have their force reduced. Might we then say the same for any spells cast into the BC from outside of it?
In other words, I'd say spells cast outside a BC are not affected by the BC. Opinions?

[DamienKnight]

BC reduces the magic of awakened characters inside it, and the force of pretty much everything else brought inside it. For spells, it's "any previously cast sustained spells brought inside". I see no mention of immediate spells though. I figure the reduction in magic is counted as plenty for those, so any spells cast within the BC do not have their force reduced. Might we then say the same for any spells cast into the BC from outside of it?
In other words, I'd say spells cast outside a BC are not affected by the BC. Opinions?

From this wording, spells cast within the background count are not reduced. I guess the penalty is the casters magic rating dropping, forcing them to cast lower force spells. This is a really good point, I had not noticed this before.

A spell cast outside the Background Count INTO (or that passes through) the BC would be reduced in force by the BC. They would be considered pre-existing because they were cast outside the BC, and entered the BC after their creation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

From this wording, spells cast within the background count are not reduced. I guess the penalty is the casters magic rating dropping, forcing them to cast lower force spells. This is a really good point, I had not noticed this before.

A spell cast outside the Background Count INTO (or that passes through) the BC would be reduced in force by the BC. They would be considered pre-existing because they were cast outside the BC, and entered the BC after their creation.

Actually, Instant Spells (Like Combat Spells) are unaffected by entering the Background Count if cast from outside of it. This is why the Negative Quality Astral Hazing is a Negative Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

There was a thread about this a couple of months past... the writer of the BC rules said that idea was that to cast a spell, you use magic from where you're standing, not the target location. So only the BC (if any) around the caster matter - and Astral Hazing doesn't protect someone from combat spells!

[Nath]

There was a thread about this a couple of months past... the writer of the BC rules said that idea was that to cast a spell, you use magic from where you're standing, not the target location. So only the BC (if any) around the caster matter - and Astral Hazing doesn't protect someone from combat spells!

If the thread you're talking about is Magic in space with Astral Hazing, what Demonseed Elite actually said was something along the line "I intended Background Counts to work that way" and "Astral Hazing rules shouldn't be used at all because they're poorly written".

The problem being, Astral Hazing rules first reads "This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character" and then that its only actual effect is to create a Background Count centered on the character, which by the BC rules as intended should only affect attempt to cast magic from within its area of effect.

Even if it doesn't protect against Combat spells, Astral Hazing remain one big ace in the sleeve when dealing with spirits (among other things, it's one hell of a protection against possession). So I still would not consider it as a flaw (which it wasn't originally, since the flaw text copies the Cybermancy side-effect). But I'm digressing.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I hate BC in 4e. The TN modifier of previous editions provided smoother game play. I think it is especially stupid given how it works with spirits and adepts.

[HunterHerne]

I hate BC in 4e. The TN modifier of previous editions provided smoother game play. I think it is especially stupid given how it works with spirits and adepts.

I like BC, and use it quite often at lower values (1 and 2), with the occassional 3, and rare 4. But, I've never had anyone trying to abuse Astral Hazing, either.

[Mardrax]

I hate BC in 4e. The TN modifier of previous editions provided smoother game play. I think it is especially stupid given how it works with spirits and adepts.

I mostly think it's a shame most adepts don't really get to benefit from an aspected background count.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I mostly think it's a shame most adepts don't really get to benefit from an aspected background count.

That is what Aspected Mana Static is for... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It would still boost any rolls the Adept makes that includes Magic Rating (which is not that many, admittedly).

[HunterHerne]

I mostly think it's a shame most adepts don't really get to benefit from an aspected background count.

This is true, unfortunitely. Even with my house ruling Natural BC (Background counts that form without directed aid of metahumanity. For this purpose religious sites are concidered directed aid) to be able to be a positive or negetive modifier dependant on the emotional aspect.

For example: An old Growth forest might have a BC of 2, aspected towards entropy (fewer things grow and the old trees slowly die), and stability. Magical abilities that would return an object to a natural state or prevent changes (The Heal spell, Mystic armour adept power) would be able to get a boost, and so would things that reduce the flow of energy (Decrease [Attribute], Rooting Adept Power). Everything else, like Mana Ball, however, would still be reduced. (An adept would still suffer loss of powers, but those that would be enhanced cannot be chosen, and may get more powerful)

[Mardrax]

That is what Aspected Mana Static is for... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It would still boost any rolls the Adept makes that includes Magic Rating (which is not that many, admittedly).

This would require a broad interpretation of "Magical skill tests," since Adepts don't actually use the magical skills, just Magic + Power, mostly.
They get the drain resistance dice, at least. Which they need for eehrm... Attribute Boost? To resist a whopping 1 drain. (Because anyone who take more than 1 rank is silly)

Oh well. Pure Adepts tend to get the short end of the stick, anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This would require a broad interpretation of "Magical skill tests," since Adepts don't actually use the magical skills, just Magic + Power, mostly.
They get the drain resistance dice, at least. Which they need for eehrm... Attribute Boost? To resist a whopping 1 drain. (Because anyone who take more than 1 rank is silly)

Oh well. Pure Adepts tend to get the short end of the stick, anyway.

This is very true indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

I like BC, and use it quite often at lower values (1 and 2), with the occassional 3, and rare 4. But, I've never had anyone trying to abuse Astral Hazing, either.

I like the concept of BC just not the rules on how it is implemented. Quite often having BC of 1 or 2 means you took probably 20% of the phys adds power away from him, other types don't have to deal with this BS. It is also just a pain in the ass to use, I lose 1 point what goes, I lose 2 what goes now, 3 what now? It is mess of a rule system. A simple for these skills you lose 1 die per BC and the drain of magic goes up by 1 per 2 is easier to deal with and doesn't kick adepts an already weak choice in the balls. This also allows low force spirits to exist in the game world. Watchers where do they exist? I mean a BC of 1 is freaking almost everywhere. I understand that they wanted BC to effect phys adds this time but what they did breaks the game world once you start thinking about it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I like the concept of BC just not the rules on how it is implemented. Quite often having BC of 1 or 2 means you took probably 20% of the phys adds power away from him, other types don't have to deal with this BS. It is also just a pain in the ass to use, I lose 1 point what goes, I lose 2 what goes now, 3 what now? It is mess of a rule system. A simple for these skills you lose 1 die per BC and the drain of magic goes up by 1 per 2 is easier to deal with and doesn't kick adepts an already weak choice in the balls. This also allows low force spirits to exist in the game world. Watchers where do they exist? I mean a BC of 1 is freaking almost everywhere. I understand that they wanted BC to effect phys adds this time but what they did breaks the game world once you start thinking about it.

I disagree... It is really not all that difficult to manage at all. And It SHOULD affect the Physad significantly, it does to all other Magically Active creatures.

[Irion]

It is hard to make good rules for BC...

If you only reduce the hits and the force of spells, spirits do not react to BC as they should.
If you reduce the magic attribute you have the problem with the spells, which are brought out of the BC. (What force are they?)

[Mardrax]

I disagree... It is really not all that difficult to manage at all. And It SHOULD affect the Physad significantly, it does to all other Magically Active creatures.

Well to be honest, a mage in a BC will just keep on spamming overcast stunbolts with impunity. Just two Force per BC count lower.
Until he gets to the point where he's better off just grabbing a pistol.

[Glyph]

I have to admit that I fall into the camp that prefers the previous rules where adepts (who internalize their magical power) were not affected by background count. Just imagine how much worse it's going to be, figuring out which powers are lost, for all of those sparkly new adepts with Ways.

[Mardrax]

I have to admit that I fall into the camp that prefers the previous rules where adepts (who internalize their magical power) were not affected by background count. Just imagine how much worse it's going to be, figuring out which powers are lost, for all of those sparkly new adepts with Ways.

Worse? Why? They just lose more.

[ggodo]

I think that's what he meant by worse.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I think that's what he meant by worse.

With player choice, it is now smart to pick a few specially non-combat powers which you can lose when entering a BC to do combat. If you then need to talk to someone, leave, come back in, and disable the combat powers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) :

[Fortinbras]

Actually, Instant Spells (Like Combat Spells) are unaffected by entering the Background Count if cast from outside of it. This is why the Negative Quality Astral Hazing is a Negative Quality. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Does this mean that a mage with a telescope could cast a Fireball at the moon, even though it's out of the Giasphere where Magic shouldn't exist?

That is what Aspected Mana Static is for... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Which is such a thing was erased from the Symphony of Existence. Well, in the English speaking world, anyway.

[Doc Byte]

The real trouble with BC starts in Astral Space. How does it affect a projecting mage:

1. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of his physical body. (aka extend your time in Astral Space with aspected BC)
2. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of his astral self. (aka enter a BC after being in Astral Space for a couple of hours and die spontaneously)
3. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of both his physical body and his astral self. (aka Ouch!)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The real trouble with BC starts in Astral Space. How does it affect a projecting mage:

1. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of his physical body. (aka extend your time in Astral Space with aspected BC)
2. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of his astral self. (aka enter a BC after being in Astral Space for a couple of hours and die spontaneously)
3. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of both his physical body and his astral self. (aka Ouch!)

I'm fairly certain it's either 2 or 3, but I can't back that up with anything. Better safe than sorry, anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

[Irion]

@Fortinbras

Does this mean that a mage with a telescope could cast a Fireball at the moon, even though it's out of the Giasphere where Magic shouldn't exist?

I do not know about that, because you are able to resist indirect spells with counterspelling (damage resistant test). So there has to be some magic there.
And I am quite sure, that it is magic until it sets other stuff on fire, which is burning with normal fire. (Because if a fireball would not be magic it would blow up in your face, the second you cast it. If we assume it is a ball flying from your position to the designated area. Which is not really stated.)

@Doc Byte

2. Magic is reduced by the BC at the location of his astral self. (aka enter a BC after being in Astral Space for a couple of hours and die spontaneously)

Thats the solution. Thats why it is such a bad Idea to go astral to the SOX. But well, the hole BC is in need of some houseruling it seems.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Does this mean that a mage with a telescope could cast a Fireball at the moon, even though it's out of the Giasphere where Magic shouldn't exist?

Indeed it does, see previous topics on said theory.

Which is such a thing was erased from the Symphony of Existence. Well, in the English speaking world, anyway.

Well, I have it in my Street Magic Book. It really is not as powerful as most people make it out to be. All it does is Add Dice to the Benefactor, and is treated as a normal BGC for non-Aspectred Personnel. In an area equal to Caster's Magic Rating Radius. It is laughably Easy to avoid.