Background Count, A gray area in functionality Options

[Glyph]

I'm not generally concerned with the harshness except for adepts who already are vastly over costed for their powers. But, I do think it is a bit of a pain in the ass to deal with and also makes very little world sense. BC 1 is really effing common, watchers don't exist in way too many areas, how do kids train/learn they have magic when they can't start off at 1 magic in most places people live, spirits aren't just having a harder time they actually become dumber etc.

The notion that background counts of 1 would be everywhere is a common view on Dumpshock, but the rules give examples of things like an awakened bar, or the scene of a particularly violent crime. I don't really buy the extrapolation of "Wow, the barrens are like, a nasty place, so they would have a background count of 1 all over." Glow City, maybe, or the scene of a recent gang clash with lots of fatalities, or one of the "toxic castles". But the whole area? No.

Astral hazing opens up a can of worms, since normally you won't have a mage casting into a background count from outside of it. But it's pretty obvious from the description that it does affect incoming spells by reducing their Force. What a freelancer thinks that the rules should have been doesn't really have any bearing on the RAW.

[TheOOB]

An unassailable rule of any RPG system is "Text Trumps Tables". Reference data tables(like spell lists in appendixes) don't actually contain game rules, they are just for reference. There is no actual rules for an aspected mana static spell(and for good reason), ergo it doesn't exist.

I must say, the cannon ruling that a background count only applies to the caster is a bit shaky to be. I understand it's word of god, but it doesn't make sense. If the magic came purely from the casters area, and not from the area around the target, then why does counterspelling work, because counterspelling is magic jamming, and you need LoS to the target to be protected, not the source of the spell.

[HunterHerne]

An unassailable rule of any RPG system is "Text Trumps Tables". Reference data tables(like spell lists in appendixes) don't actually contain game rules, they are just for reference. There is no actual rules for an aspected mana static spell(and for good reason), ergo it doesn't exist.

I must say, the cannon ruling that a background count only applies to the caster is a bit shaky to be. I understand it's word of god, but it doesn't make sense. If the magic came purely from the casters area, and not from the area around the target, then why does counterspelling work, because counterspelling is magic jamming, and you need LoS to the target to be protected, not the source of the spell.

Counterspelling in this case is exactly as you said, jamming. It's causing a disturbance in the mana where the spell needs to travel through, to disrupt the spell. A bullet gets all it's mass and energy from what it is, and how it starts, not because of things it picks up along the way, but if it hits a few windows (or a wall) it'll lose some of it's damage capacity. That's the best analogy I could think of, so feel free to try ripping it apart.

[Ascalaphus]

The notion that background counts of 1 would be everywhere is a common view on Dumpshock, but the rules give examples of things like an awakened bar, or the scene of a particularly violent crime. I don't really buy the extrapolation of "Wow, the barrens are like, a nasty place, so they would have a background count of 1 all over." Glow City, maybe, or the scene of a recent gang clash with lots of fatalities, or one of the "toxic castles". But the whole area? No.

This is my take on it too. BC as reducing Magic is a nice, easy/quick to apply system. How common BC is in a setting is entirely up to the GM; the rules are (deliberately) vague about it. So as a GM you can decide how common BC should be, based on what's good for play.

Personally, I think a BC of 0 should be by far the most common - it's the middle of the scale for a reason. It's the level at which spells have their typical Force and Drain. Divergent ratings should be increasingly rare - you'll see BC +1/-1 fairly often, +2/-2 now and then, +3/-3 seldomly, +4/-4 almost never, and so on. A BC of 4 either way is basically a plot device. Compare it to a highly secure building, which scans people who enter for weapons and cyberware - that's to the Sam what a BC 4 area is to mages.

Of course, Adepts are rather screwed. More than they should be, really. Maybe there could be some Adept Metamagic to deal with that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't you remember? Aspected mana static got errata'd out. It's not in the latest copies of street magic. Possibly because the very idea of being able to cast a spell like that is so OP that it would drive everyone and their mother to play riggers with R2 redundant manufacturing on milspec drones.

Why is it so opverpowered? You get a Dice Bonus to the Aspected Character, a Magic Penalty to those not of his tradition, and it is such a small area, that most people will not be affected at all. In the case of a Large Area Aspected Background count (Usually obtained through Geomancy and aspecting a Domain), you can circumvent it with Cleansing Metamagic. I see no overpowering advantage here whatsoever.

And again, It is in MY book (and even if it was not, it is easy to bring back into play through custom spell design). And the German Books actually have the spell description apparently. *Shrug*. I see it no more overpowering than having someone with Geomancy Metamagic.

Again, it comes back to the style of the game at your table. Even with it in play at our table, it has not altered (drastically, or otherwise) the way the world works. It is a nice bonus, but not really all that powerful in the grand scheme of things. Now, if it actually boosted your Magic in those places where it is encountered, it would be very powerful indeed, but alas, it does not.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The notion that background counts of 1 would be everywhere is a common view on Dumpshock, but the rules give examples of things like an awakened bar, or the scene of a particularly violent crime. I don't really buy the extrapolation of "Wow, the barrens are like, a nasty place, so they would have a background count of 1 all over." Glow City, maybe, or the scene of a recent gang clash with lots of fatalities, or one of the "toxic castles". But the whole area? No.

Astral hazing opens up a can of worms, since normally you won't have a mage casting into a background count from outside of it. But it's pretty obvious from the description that it does affect incoming spells by reducing their Force. What a freelancer thinks that the rules should have been doesn't really have any bearing on the RAW.

That is how I would read the initial street magic descriptions, but everything in the books since then has gone more towards the it is everywhere theory. It is a big corp building, oh the crushed emotions of the worker bees makes it a BC of 1, the barrens oh the violence and feelings of the poor outcasts give it a BC of 1-2 everywhere. And even if it were like that it still doesn't make sense that a persons magic goes away, or a spirit gets dumber.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You may get yourself an easy +6 to all magic test and an +6 to drain. Thats quite good.
Not to mention it would stack with existing BC...

And I do not know if you can have a permanent spell sustained, if so it is really overpowered. (So the force of the BC is not reduced)

@Ascalaphus

Compare it to a highly secure building, which scans people who enter for weapons and cyberware

Considering how cheap scanners are, this should be often however. Nearly any office building, high end restaurants etc. and of course airports and any government building.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
You may get yourself an easy +6 to all magic test and an +6 to drain. Thats quite good.
Not to mention it would stack with existing BC...

And I do not know if you can have a permanent spell sustained, if so it is really overpowered. (So the force of the BC is not reduced)

You cannort sustain a Permanent Spell. Ever. It is not a Sustained Spell, thus cannot be put into a Sustaining Focus, nor can you sustain it past permanence, because at that point, the sustainment goes away automatically. And again, you are assumming that everyone walks around with a Magic Rating of 6 (Poor Assumption), and ALWAYS stay within the confines of that Non-Mobile Permanent Spell, with a Maximum Radius of up to 2x Force in Meters (another poor assumption).

Again, where is it overpowered? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Considering how cheap scanners are, this should be often however. Nearly any office building, high end restaurants etc. and of course airports and any government building.

Which is about as ubiquitous as the BGC of 1. And your point? They are both impacted about the same at that point.

[KarmaInferno]

The way the rules are written, there's no good reason why most places wouldn't use cyberware scanners.

However, the way the fluff is written, most places still use the old MAD scanners.



-k

[Glyph]

Yeah, and the countermeasures in Runner's Companion are mainly geared towards MAD scanners, too. The only real rationale to cyberware scanners not being used more is that they still draw complaints of being a "virtual strip search". It doesn't make quite as much sense in a dystopian future with fewer human rights, but Shadowrun demands a lot of hand-waving to explain away the discrepancies in its fluff.

[TheOOB]

A version of mana static that didn't effect you would be overpowered, as would one that gave you bonuses without giving enemies penalties. The first basically allows the magician to take on all magical threats with little trouble, and the second makes you a god.

As it is, mana static is a very very powerful spell, it allows a less powerful magician to take on more powerful threats by sacrificing some(or all) of their magical abilities.

[Falanin]

Hmmm, kung-fu adept in a similarly-aspected dojo. Could explain why those moves always seem to work better than when you're out on the street. It's all about the presence of the master.

[Neraph]

Hmmm, kung-fu adept in a similarly-aspected dojo. Could explain why those moves always seem to work better than when you're out on the street. It's all about the presence of the master.

As there are so few adept abilities that actually use their Magic rating, that effect you're talking about is probably due to the Home Ground positive quality.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A version of mana static that didn't effect you would be overpowered, as would one that gave you bonuses without giving enemies penalties. The first basically allows the magician to take on all magical threats with little trouble, and the second makes you a god.

But it really doesn't, and isn't. Lets assume a Mage with a Magic of 4 here. He casts his Aspected mana Staticd Spell so that he is at the center of its effects. The chances of the enemy mage getting in his area of Effect are nil, if they are an opposing Mage, as there is little reason to do so, and the +4 DP advantage the spell caster receives is negligible (it is a DP bonus, not a Bonus to Magic Atgtribute), becuase it does not make his spells any more powerful. He is still capped at his normal Magical attribute/abilities.

Now, lets cast that spell on the opposing mage. His magic goes down (maybe) for a single pass, as he moves out of the area of effect. Big deal, as he will not likely, again, be affected by the mana static. Not seeing how this allows the mage to take on all opponents with little trouble, nor how it makes him a virtual god. It MIGHT affect a Spirit such that he goes away, and honestly, this is the best use of the spell in a static location that everyone must pass through to get to the mage.

Additionally, you will always have the issue of not knowing the particular Tradition any given mage is a part of. It would really suck to cast Aspected Mana Static on an opposingt Mage to find out that he is also a part of your tradition. Hell, any good opposition may already have an entirely aspected domain surrounding them anyways. At whioch point, your either Aspecting your area, or cleansing their. It is a tool, nothing more. It does not make you godlike or invincible.

As it is, mana static is a very very powerful spell, it allows a less powerful magician to take on more powerful threats by sacrificing some(or all) of their magical abilities.

Limiting/Eliminating your Magic to take on More Powerful Threats is usually a losing proposition for the weaker opponent.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As there are so few adept abilities that actually use their Magic rating, that effect you're talking about is probably due to the Home Ground positive quality.

Home Ground is exactly the one. And is very similar in effect to Aspected Mana Static in the boost that it gives the caster. Especially since AMS rarely affects opposition mages due to it limited area of effect.

[TheOOB]

Limiting/Eliminating your Magic to take on More Powerful Threats is usually a losing proposition for the weaker opponent.

Except you're completely wrong. Lets say a magic 3 magician is fighting a force 6 spirit. His weapons can't get through ITNW, and he's not likely to be able to kill it with manabolt before it kills him. He casts mana static at force 3, which eliminates his magic ability, but halves the force of the spirit. Now the spirit can be killed with a few good shots with a pistol, and it's damage output is nearly halved. This is especially useful if you have other team members with good guns.

By weakening your enemy's magic, you can make them easier to take out via mundane means.

But it really doesn't, and isn't. Lets assume a Mage with a Magic of 4 here. He casts his Aspected mana Staticd Spell so that he is at the center of its effects. The chances of the enemy mage getting in his area of Effect are nil, if they are an opposing Mage, as there is little reason to do so, and the +4 DP advantage the spell caster receives is negligible (it is a DP bonus, not a Bonus to Magic Atgtribute), becuase it does not make his spells any more powerful. He is still capped at his normal Magical attribute/abilities.

I like how you took a very important part of the spell and completely disregarded it. There is a significant chance your opponent would be caught in the spell because you would attempt to ensure your opponent got caught in the spell, but unlike normal mana static, if you're in close quarters you get a net +2 DP bonus to all your magic checks instead of suffering the same penalty. If a +2 DP bonus is negligible, why do people use foci or get specializations, it's important and it does make your spells more powerful, and it gets worse if people cast the spell at higher force. It's like discounting the usefulness of stick-n-shock rounds because a few people might have electrical protection on their armor, it's silly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I like how you took a very important part of the spell and completely disregarded it. There is a significant chance your opponent would be caught in the spell because you would attempt to ensure your opponent got caught in the spell, but unlike normal mana static, if you're in close quarters you get a net +2 DP bonus to all your magic checks instead of suffering the same penalty. If a +2 DP bonus is negligible, why do people use foci or get specializations, it's important and it does make your spells more powerful, and it gets worse if people cast the spell at higher force. It's like discounting the usefulness of stick-n-shock rounds because a few people might have electrical protection on their armor, it's silly.

Except that your wrong. Your spells do not get more powerful. You get more dice (equal to your Force of the Aspected Mana Static). This is a big difference. And I did not ignore the chance that the opponent would get caught, I just discounted it for the most part, becuase it is SO easy to avoid, it is Insignificant, rather than Significant, unless you are able to set up the area, which most shadowrunners do not have the luxury of doing (not being their home ground and all that). Spirits are the only entity that MAY have an issue, because most of their powers can be done at range as well, but all it takes is for you to cast it in the area that the Spirit occupies. Spirit may pop like bubble, but then again, spirit may get more powerful. All depends upon the Aspect of the Spirit's tradition as well.

Spells are not MORE POWERFUL because you use a Focus. Magic 6 can only cast what a Magic 6 character can cast, regardless of foci, Background Count (Aspected or not), or any other "boost" to ability. They are still capped at their Magic x2 for Force. Foci do not change that in the least.

[Irion]

Come on, you get X more dices to any magic test and drain test. Thats quite a good thing.
And if the enemy mage targets you with a stunbolt the force gets reduced by X.

Sorry, but staying in an aspected zone makes one mage able to take on several other mages not having this advantage.
Yes, there is the way to overcast to magic*2 but overcasting manaspells or overcasting in general is a severe problem, which is known.
So one rule loophole trumps an other one.... Yeah, right. But it is not really an argument I guess.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Come on, you get X more dices to any magic test and drain test. Thats quite a good thing.
And if the enemy mage targets you with a stunbolt the force gets reduced by X.

Sorry, but staying in an aspected zone makes one mage able to take on several other mages not having this advantage.
Yes, there is the way to overcast to magic*2 but overcasting manaspells or overcasting in general is a severe problem, which is known.
So one rule loophole trumps an other one.... Yeah, right. But it is not really an argument I guess.

It gives an advantage, yes, no doubt about that. It DOES NOT make you more POWERFUL.

[Neraph]

It gives an advantage, yes, no doubt about that. It DOES NOT make you more POWERFUL.

True - it does not directly make it more powerful. However, getting more dice to cast and resist drain means you can cast more powerful spells yourself with less risk. It's an indirect power increase, but a power increase none-the-less.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

True - it does not directly make it more powerful. However, getting more dice to cast and resist drain means you can cast more powerful spells yourself with less risk. It's an indirect power increase, but a power increase none-the-less.

I don't know about you, but I have rarely seen a mage that cannot handle the drain they incur. Not unless they get very unlucky. SO being able to roll more dice to handle the drain they were already handling is not reallly a bonus in my mind. It is also a rare thing to see a mage who does not ALREADY hit his Hit Cap anyways, so again, a few more dice to add to a pool that already hits its cap is pretty useless in my opinion. For those who are not quite so optimized, it is an advantage (as it is at our table). For optimised Characters (we have one of those too), it does not really mean a whole lot. The mages here on DS are mostly of the Optimised sort, so not as much of an advantage in my book. *Shrug*

[Neraph]

...

It encourages casting over what you normally can; IE: overcasting. If I know I can handle a F7 Stunbolt, then in BC I'll go up to F9 or 10. If I can handle a F6 Powerbolt, then in the BC I'll crank it up to 8 or 9.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

...

It encourages casting over what you normally can; IE: overcasting. If I know I can handle a F7 Stunbolt, then in BC I'll go up to F9 or 10. If I can handle a F6 Powerbolt, then in the BC I'll crank it up to 8 or 9.

But you have to admit, most casters here on Dumpshock can handle that F9-11 Stunbolt with no issue whatsoever. So it does not really matter all that much, does it? Which is my point. It will help the Non-Optimized Caster, but not really do much for the Optimized Caster.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It will help any kind of caster.
Well, the non optimised kind of caster won't be able to use it, due to the high drain.
Force/2+4, meaning no matter the force you are in for a lot of drain...(So it does not matter if you cast it on high force anyway)

So yeah, for Stunbolts it does not matter due to the low drain. (What did I say about broken rules to start with?)
Still, you have X more dices on the casting test, which might help overcome the counterspelling test.

Actually the low end mage will hurt himself more, because he will suffer damage due to drain, the optimized mage won't.

Yes, there are a lot of situation it won't help. But there are also a lot of situation a DV 20 Holdout-deathray-pistol won't help, does not change the fact, that it is quite a nice thing to have...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
It will help any kind of caster.
Well, the non optimised kind of caster won't be able to use it, due to the high drain.
Force/2+4, meaning no matter the force you are in for a lot of drain...(So it does not matter if you cast it on high force anyway)

So yeah, for Stunbolts it does not matter due to the low drain. (What did I say about broken rules to start with?)
Still, you have X more dices on the casting test, which might help overcome the counterspelling test.

Actually the low end mage will hurt himself more, because he will suffer damage due to drain, the optimized mage won't.

Yes, there are a lot of situation it won't help. But there are also a lot of situation a DV 20 Holdout-deathray-pistol won't help, does not change the fact, that it is quite a nice thing to have...

Does not change that it is NOT overpowered... Which was always my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)