Weapon Foci & Melee Defense, Let's Play 'Interpet The RAW' Options

[Neurosis]

So, in your opinion, do weapon foci grant a dice pool bonus to melee defense tests when armed with the weapon?

According to RAW? According to common sense?

P. 199 SR4A says that "when used in physical combat, weapon foci grant the character a dice pool modifier to melee attacks equal to their Force". I can't think of any reason this bonus wouldn't also be added to melee defense when parrying (Reaction + Weapon Skill), except that it doesn't specifically say that it does.

What do you think?

[Mardrax]

So, in your opinion, do weapon foci grant a dice pool bonus to melee defense tests when armed with the weapon?

According to RAW? According to common sense?

P. 199 SR4A says that "when used in physical combat, weapon foci grant the character a dice pool modifier to melee attacks equal to their Force". I can't think of any reason this bonus wouldn't also be added to melee defense when parrying (Reaction + Weapon Skill), except that it doesn't specifically say that it does.

What do you think?

RAW: no.
Common sense: perhaps. Kinda depends on how you figure the bonus to work. If it's making the weapon automagically find its target, then no.

Would I mind giving the bonus? Not much, anyone who goes for the vastly suboptimal choice of melee, and then armed too, I don't mind giving a bit of padding.

[Neurosis]

I sort of assumed that Weapon Foci were very very similar to magic weapons in that...other...game.

"The character still relies on her Physical attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes her more effective".

[HunterHerne]

So, in your opinion, do weapon foci grant a dice pool bonus to melee defense tests when armed with the weapon?

According to RAW? According to common sense?

P. 199 SR4A says that "when used in physical combat, weapon foci grant the character a dice pool modifier to melee attacks equal to their Force". I can't think of any reason this bonus wouldn't also be added to melee defense when parrying (Reaction + Weapon Skill), except that it doesn't specifically say that it does.

What do you think?

Emphasis mine.

[Tanegar]

Unfortunately, RAW on this point is as explicit as RAW gets: the bonus applies to melee attacks, period. IMO, it would be reasonable to houserule that the bonus applies to melee defense, as well. I am unfamiliar with this "common sense" of which you speak. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neurosis]

It just seems....odd. I wish that RAI was not so perpetually unknowable.

[Glyph]

It could have very easily said "melee combat". It didn't. The RAW is clear. I, too, would house rule it to make more sense. Forget about RAI. Shadowrun isn't that bad, comparatively speaking, but it still has, in addition to its unclear rules, a number of rules that are perfectly clear but very stupid. RAI does not always equal common sense; the latter should trump the former. Just be sure to let players know about house rules ahead of time, since what people define as common sense can vary a lot from person to person.

[Whipstitch]

I wouldn't change it, personally. Melee defense is plenty tough to crack without giving it another positive modifier. Frankly, I don't even consider it all that weird that a focus helps you attack but doesn't help you defend, either. Invoking common sense doesn't seem particularly relevant here given that we're talking about a nebulously defined magical power.


[EDIT]

I sort of assumed that Weapon Foci were very very similar to magic weapons in that...other...game.

I missed this earlier and I must say that it's not a safe assumption at all. Magic in Shadowrun is considerably more intimate than that in D&D. You need to attune to weapon foci to get any use out of them, for one thing, and even once attuned the weapons aren't ever said to be appreciably much different from other weapons of the same materials physically. For example, there's nothing I'm aware of in the structure rules saying that your heirloom force 3 katana weapon focus will be any harder to break or has a finer edge than a quality but unenchanted blade by the same maker; the benefit of using one is nil if you are not channeling your own powers through it somehow, so there isn't really much going on there physically. Fluff wise for all we know weapon foci work by leveraging the wielder's aggression. It'd make as much sense as anything in a setting in which it's possible to harm spirits with sheer pluck.

[TheOOB]

It just seems....odd. I wish that RAI was not so perpetually unknowable.

People emphasis RAI too much, RAI is only really neccesary when a)The rules are convolution or confusion, or b)the wording of the rules does not make something work like it says it works.

The rules here are that weapon foci add dice to melee attacks. That is about as clear as you can get. Personally, I don't think extra defense is necessary, and I don't think it makes sense. Magical weapons are supernaturally strong and powerful, a high force sword can cut through a troll as easily as it cuts through paper, but being hard or sharp doesn't make it block attacks better, the weapon would have to be self aware for that.

Now I could totally see possession spirits doing something along those lines.

[Neurosis]

Magical weapons are supernaturally strong and powerful, a high force sword can cut through a troll as easily as it cuts through paper, but being hard or sharp doesn't make it block attacks better, the weapon would have to be self aware for that.

But it's not a damage bonus, it also makes you more skilled with the weapon and more likely to hit. I don't disagree with you that RAW seems fairly clearcut here, but it does not seem to mesh with what little fluff is given.

[TheOOB]

But it's not a damage bonus, it also makes you more skilled with the weapon and more likely to hit. I don't disagree with you that RAW seems fairly clearcut here, but it does not seem to mesh with what little fluff is given.

It makes you more likely to do damage. Any given melee attack roll involves many attacks, parries, dodges and the like, and may involve several hits that fail to do any damage, due to armor, tough skin, or only being a glancing blow.

[The Jopp]

I would also rule for Melee Combat since the magician/adept is more "attuned" with his weapon - it is more of an extension of himself than a tool that he has trained with all his life.

[LurkerOutThere]

People have pointed out the fluff reason: Shadowrun melee foci arn't about protecting yoruself, they are about hurting the other guy.

People have already pointed out the balance reason: Melee is already kind of a crap option for all but the most amazingly skilled, adding a force 6 weapons focus on top of the other bonus already available would make a melee character pretty much unstrikable in melee combat, even before they went active dodge.

In short it's a bad idea.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would also rule for Melee Combat since the magician/adept is more "attuned" with his weapon - it is more of an extension of himself than a tool that he has trained with all his life.

No... That is what the Adept Power: Attunement (Sword) is for.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, it's not really making you "more skilled," it's giving you an undefined situational bonus.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, it's not really making you "more skilled," it's giving you an undefined situational bonus.

Well...

Weapon Foci are explicitely Defined for Attacks only.
Attunement is for all actions involving the use of the skill for the attuned item (Attack, defense, Skill Rolls, etc). I would classify Attunement as "more skilled" since it appllies to any/every use of the Item involved.

[Neraph]

No... That is what the Adept Power: Attunement (Sword) is for.

Beat me to it.

[DamienKnight]

But it's not a damage bonus, it also makes you more skilled with the weapon and more likely to hit. I don't disagree with you that RAW seems fairly clearcut here, but it does not seem to mesh with what little fluff is given.

I agree with this logic. If the magic just made the weapon cut better then it would provide a DV bonus. It is a skill bonus, so it should apply to defense also, despite the verbal flatulence the book spews.

[Mardrax]

I agree with this logic. If the magic just made the weapon cut better then it would provide a DV bonus. It is a skill bonus, so it should apply to defense also, despite the verbal flatulence the book spews.

It boosts your skill in cutting up people, not in preventing people from cutting up you.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, my last post was unclear. I was thinking about the weapon focus rather than attune item. Magically enhanced skill and enhanced familiarity with your tools are covered by Improved Ability and Item Attunement respectively. When I say "Undefined" I meant that the fluff "hows" of weapon focus mechanics is rather unclear even if the purpose and results of such devices are rather clearly presented by RAW. If in your games you feel that it's important that a weapon focus means that the weapon feels more finely balanced or unnaturally light in your hands or something than go ahead and houserule things however you please. Such physical concerns aren't really how they work by RAW though.

[Neurosis]

Does anyone have any snippets of how it worked in previous editions?

[HunterHerne]

Yeah, my last post was unclear. I was thinking about the weapon focus rather than attune item. Magically enhanced skill and enhanced familiarity with your tools are covered by Improved Ability and Item Attunement respectively. When I say "Undefined" I meant that the fluff "hows" of weapon focus mechanics is rather unclear even if the purpose and results of such devices are rather clearly presented by RAW. If in your games you feel that it's important that a weapon focus means that the weapon feels more finely balanced or unnaturally light in your hands or something than go ahead and houserule things however you please. Such physical concerns aren't really how they work by RAW though.

I say, as long as he/she doesn't try to change the mechanics, let the creator/wielder decide. Maybe one blade does seem lighter, and another seems to cut more easily? Maybe the next one seems to open up the senses of the user, and shows him/her where to move (this is mystic, not tech, so it could be an instant understanding)? But, it does only affect your ability to hit/deal damage by RAW, and I would keep it that way.

[Whipstitch]

Does anyone have any snippets of how it worked in previous editions?

They essentially added to skill your combat skill in 3rd, which was a relatively minor bonus in the overall scheme of that system. They also had to be made of orichalcum whereas these days you could theoretically enchant a crappy wallhanger up as high as you like.

[DamienKnight]

Does anyone have any snippets of how it worked in previous editions?

Weapon foci are magical melee weapons. Any Awakened
character can bond and use a weapon focus. An active weapon
focus adds its Force to its owner’s appropriate combat skill
when wielded in combat.

3rd edition it assisted with blocking as well as attacking, because why the hell wouldnt it!?

[Whipstitch]

And now it's a magical device for attacking. I don't expect attack magic to protect me any more than I expect my stun bolts to heal people. It really all depends on what kind of fluff you want from your game.