[X] My Assistant

[Neraph]

"They're firing 20mm caseless fletchette rounds at 300 meters. The effective lethal range is 200 meters."

I haven't clicked on the link and I know exactly what movie that is. I AM THE LAW!

[CanRay]

No, he's a poser who took off his helmet.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I second the Slivergun, +AP isn't so bad if the damage is high enough. And it actually cheats with the damage code, too, it should be at 7P/+4.

So it's really at +1.33 damage, but as was mentioned the stun track is usually at least one box shorter... unbeatable for a HPist. Attach some cheap mods for RC and you have an amazing gun.

(Now this was posted about a few hours too late, duh...)

[Neraph]

One of my alltime favorites is the Fichetti Security 600 loaded with SnS. It's basically a taser with a 30 round clip.

[Faraday]

The reason you would choose a laser sight over a smartgun system is that laser sights keep the taser unrestricted? How easy would it be to determine a taser is a smartgun and therefore requires a license to own? For that matter how hard would it be to observe the internal modifications of any gun? If I looked at your taser with an internal silencer, would I know that it's forbidden immediately if I knew it had a silencer or would I even be able to tell if it had a silencer inside it in the first place?

If a taser has a wireless node, datajack, or skinlink connection, a cop looking for someone to fine/arrest are likely going to ask if it's smartlinked, since you MUST have some way to talk to a smartlink.

If I plan on using tracer rounds, then a laser sight works better overall. Although there are a lot of benefits to switching ammo, reloading and such that are obtained when using a smartgun system.

You plan on using full bursts? All the time? If not, smartlink is better.

How easy is it to spot a broken down weapon? Heavy pistols are apparently capable of being worn as jewelry, but the perception threshold was never mentioned. Presumably it is less than 4.

Ease of spotting is usually a GM call. As a rule of thumb, reduce the concealability modifier by 4. This would make an SMG as easy to hide as a commlink or heavy pistol, while a rifle would be be on par with a medkit or a baseball bat.

The Sakura Fubuki is a light pistol so it already has -2 concealability. Did you mean barrel reduction for concealability -3 and a concealed holster for -5 total? Or were you thinking chameleon coating and other stuff? I thought the Ares Viper Silvergun had a damage code of 8P/+2 AP, but perhaps that is a typo? I always thought that was a super cool flechette gun if it had an innate -3 AP. Was this errata'd or something? I thought I was up to date.

I was just going with the shortened barrel and concealable holster. Errata or something changed the slivergun to 8P/+5 AP. It's still an amazing gun. Burst fire, integrated suppressor, decent clip size, and a good damage code to boot? In a heavy pistol-sized package? Sign me up.

So, cyberarm with gyromounts for unAwakened gun enthusiasts, harness for those with both mojo and the desire to shoot things. That sound right?

The harness gives you SIX POINTS of recoil compensation, so it has its place. The cyberarm gyromount is useful if you want to use your weapon's mod slots for something other than recoil comp or you find yourself using a lot of unmodified weapons with burst fire. Sound suppressed burst fire is also much easier with a cyberarm gyromount.

One of my favorite guns for use with a gyromount is the Ares Slivergun, since it's got burst fire, sound suppression, and no recoil compensation on its own. A cyberarm gyromount largely fills the RC gap without resorting to a gas vent which would prevent the use of the sound suppressor.

Gyromounts are not exactly a convenient alternative. For one thing, you'll need at least a lower arm cyberlimb unless your GM lets you install them in cyberhands. That's essence loss and a rather blatant illegal mod to have to a cyberlimb. You could make it modular, but then if the point is to swap in the gyromount you might as well shrug into a harness.

While it is blatantly illegal, it is also difficult to notice outside of getting checked out by a cyberware scanner or combat.

[Ascalaphus]

One of my alltime favorites is the Fichetti Security 600 loaded with SnS. It's basically a taser with a 30 round clip.

Yeah, that's one awesome gun.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Errata or something changed the slivergun to 8P/+5 AP.

And in doing so they kept one mistake and added another...

[UmaroVI]

Unless you allow Armor Piercing Flechette (from WAR!) ammo in the Slivergun, it's not very good; the Ruger Thunderbolt is generally a better weapon (with Ex-explosive, the thunderbolt is 7p/-2 and can fire only narrow, versus 8p/+5; 7 armor is worth about 2.33 DV). The slivergun does have the nice ability to fire wide burstfire that no other pistol gets; I could see it as a good choice for someone who wasn't very good with pistols and wanted the extra accuracy.

[Yerameyahu]

No other pistol?

[Miri]

Unless you allow Armor Piercing Flechette (from WAR!) ammo in the Slivergun, it's not very good; the Ruger Thunderbolt is generally a better weapon (with Ex-explosive, the thunderbolt is 7p/-2 and can fire only narrow, versus 8p/+5; 7 armor is worth about 2.33 DV). The slivergun does have the nice ability to fire wide burstfire that no other pistol gets; I could see it as a good choice for someone who wasn't very good with pistols and wanted the extra accuracy.

Is that taking into account the usually lower Impact rating on armor?

[Mayhem_2006]

Unless you allow Armor Piercing Flechette (from WAR!) ammo in the Slivergun, it's not very good; the Ruger Thunderbolt is generally a better weapon (with Ex-explosive, the thunderbolt is 7p/-2 and can fire only narrow, versus 8p/+5; 7 armor is worth about 2.33 DV). The slivergun does have the nice ability to fire wide burstfire that no other pistol gets; I could see it as a good choice for someone who wasn't very good with pistols and wanted the extra accuracy.

How about as a good choice for somebody that likes to do called shots to avoid armour?

[UmaroVI]

There's a very narrow range where called shots to avoid armor isn't a bad move. You should almost always call shots to increase DV, unless your target had such little armor that it doesn't really matter. If your target has, say, 6 armor, you could take -6 to hit for -11 armor (worth a bit less than 4 DV)... or -4 to hit for +4 DV.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

No other pistol?

I think it's an arbitrary restriction on the off-the shelf burst-fire pistols. Well... it's easy enough to mod any pistol to BF, but it's expensive nonetheless.

Is that taking into account the usually lower Impact rating on armor?

If you assume 2 less impact, and 1 fewer box (although an average human will have 10/10 boxes, average metas are quickly at 11/10), I would estimate things like this:

The Thunderbolt using Ex-Ex with a narrow burst is at 8P/-2, vs Ballistic, so effectively at 8.66P. Due to base damage (6P) and -2 AP you are probably doing physical damage (vs an armoured jacket with 5/3).

The Tbolt using Flechette is at 7P/+4 vs Impact, using narrow bursts 9P/+4. With the above considerations doing S damage (7P base vs an 3+4 Impact), this becomes 10S/+2, which equals 9.33S.

The Slivergun with a narrow burst is at 10P/+5 base. Due to the base damage of 8P and +5AP you are likely (hopefully) doing S damage, so the damage effectively becomes 11S/+3 (1 fewer box, 2 less impact), which is exactly 10S. If you roll too well, you lose that advantage, or you have to hope that your enemies have more armour.

For wide bursts the Sliver is at 8P/+5 with a def mod of -2, which is basically 8.66P/+5; Modified as above that's 9.66S/+3, which translates to about 8.66S.

What this ignores is the possibility of the narrow burst not hitting at all, or the wide burst getting too many hits to still deal S damage. But for the present case, this is the exact same damage as the Tbolt using Ex-Ex, and the narrow-burst Sliver is actually better.

Of course, this all hinges on the hope that the opponents are wearing enough impact armour that you won't be doing P damage, but are wearing even more Ballistic armour.

Do note that only the Slivergun is actually better than a regular gun using Ex-Ex, because its flechettes are actually +3/+6AP (for an effective +1DV), while regular flechettes are +2/+5AP, for an effective +0.33.

However, the Tbolt is the clearly better gun for every occasion where you don't need a silencer, only it's clip size is problematic. The narrow burst problem can be solved with a Full-auto mod, and it can get a ton of RC easily.

[Neraph]

I think it's an arbitrary restriction on the off-the shelf burst-fire pistols. Well... it's easy enough to mod any pistol to BF, but it's expensive nonetheless.

I think he's pointing out that people are only talking about BF pistols (me excluded). What happened to the Second Law of Running The Shadows? BF and FA are surefire (no pun intended) ways to not "Conserve Ammo"...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think it's an arbitrary restriction on the off-the shelf burst-fire pistols. Well... it's easy enough to mod any pistol to BF, but it's expensive nonetheless.

If you assume 2 less impact, and 1 fewer box (although an average human will have 10/10 boxes, average metas are quickly at 11/10), I would estimate things like this:

The Thunderbolt using Ex-Ex with a narrow burst is at 8P/-2, vs Ballistic, so effectively at 8.66P. Due to base damage (6P) and -2 AP you are probably doing physical damage (vs an armoured jacket with 5/3).

The Tbolt using Flechette is at 7P/+4 vs Impact, using narrow bursts 9P/+4. With the above considerations doing S damage (7P base vs an 3+4 Impact), this becomes 10S/+2, which equals 9.33S.

The Slivergun with a narrow burst is at 10P/+5 base. Due to the base damage of 8P and +5AP you are likely (hopefully) doing S damage, so the damage effectively becomes 11S/+3 (1 fewer box, 2 less impact), which is exactly 10S. If you roll too well, you lose that advantage, or you have to hope that your enemies have more armour.

For wide bursts the Sliver is at 8P/+5 with a def mod of -2, which is basically 8.66P/+5; Modified as above that's 9.66S/+3, which translates to about 8.66S.

What this ignores is the possibility of the narrow burst not hitting at all, or the wide burst getting too many hits to still deal S damage. But for the present case, this is the exact same damage as the Tbolt using Ex-Ex, and the narrow-burst Sliver is actually better.

Of course, this all hinges on the hope that the opponents are wearing enough impact armour that you won't be doing P damage, but are wearing even more Ballistic armour.

Do note that only the Slivergun is actually better than a regular gun using Ex-Ex, because its flechettes are actually +3/+6AP (for an effective +1DV), while regular flechettes are +2/+5AP, for an effective +0.33.

However, the Tbolt is the clearly better gun for every occasion where you don't need a silencer, only it's clip size is problematic. The narrow burst problem can be solved with a Full-auto mod, and it can get a ton of RC easily.

What? Who cares if you get too many hits. Flechettes are opposed by Impact armor, and do Physical Damage normally. More net hits equates to more damage overall.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

What? Who cares if you get too many hits. Flechettes are opposed by Impact armor, and do Physical Damage normally. More net hits equates to more damage overall.

Yes, but one of the quoted advantages of flechettes is that the +AP will more reliably make you do stun damage - and most "brute" type enemies have a shorter stun track. That one box less on the stun track equates to one full point of DV more.

So instead of being worse than Ex-Ex, they end up equal by default against armoured enemies.
+1/-1 (+1.33DV) vs +3/+5 (+1.33 DV)

And the sliver effectively does +4/+6, which equals +2 DV.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, but one of the quoted advantages of flechettes is that the +AP will more reliably make you do stun damage - and most "brute" type enemies have a shorter stun track. That one box less on the stun track equates to one full point of DV more.

So instead of being worse than Ex-Ex, they end up equal by default against armoured enemies.
+1/-1 (+1.33DV) vs +3/+5 (+1.33 DV)

And the sliver effectively does +4/+6, which equals +2 DV.

I'm Sorry, the quoted advantage that I use is that it will totally shred anything that it hits (especially UNARMORED TARGETS, who get no benefit of the +5 Armor Modification), for the most part. That is the advantage of a Flechette Gun. I don't think that I have ever seen eanyone tout the NON-LETHAL capabilities of the Flechette Gun.

[Miri]

Put standard ammo into the Slivergun.. 6P -0AP with Burstfire. *shrug*

[Neraph]

I'm Sorry, the quoted advantage that I use is that it will totally shred anything that it hits (especially UNARMORED TARGETS, who get no benefit of the +5 Armor Modification), for the most part. That is the advantage of a Flechette Gun. I don't think that I have ever seen eanyone tout the NON-LETHAL capabilities of the Flechette Gun.

+5 armor will give unarmored opponents 5 armor.

[CanRay]

Put standard ammo into the Slivergun.. 6P -0AP with Burstfire. *shrug*

Slivergun can't use regular ammo. It's like the Honey Badger that way.

[Miri]

Slivergun can't use regular ammo. It's like the Honey Badger that way.

Sure it can. The write up doesn't specifically say it can only use Flichette ammo (like the Mossberg shotgun write up) and you can put flichette ammo into any other Pistol. Ergo.. can put standard ammo into the Ares Slivergun.

[Neraph]

It's like the Honey Badger that way.

In internet speak.... lolwut

[Mayhem_2006]

Sure it can. The write up doesn't specifically say it can only use Flichette ammo (like the Mossberg shotgun write up) and you can put flichette ammo into any other Pistol. Ergo.. can put standard ammo into the Ares Slivergun.

That's utterly ridiculous... but true, if you ignore fluff in favour of mechanics. Wow.

What's actually missing from the gear list is sliver ammo, since fluff wise its ammo only "counts as" flechette, it isn't *actually* flechette.

In the absense of that... it would appear to use normal ammo...?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

+5 armor will give unarmored opponents 5 armor.

No it does not. It boost Armor, IF YOU HAVE IT. Against Unarmored Skin, it adds nothing.

Here is a Quote:

Armor Penetration (AP)
A weapon’s Armor Penetration (AP) represents its penetrating ability— its ability to pierce armor. AP modifies a target’s Armor rating when
he makes a damage resistance test. Some weapons fare poorly against armor, and so actually raise the value of the armor—if the target is not
wearing armor, however, this bonus does not apply.

[Daier Mune]

Which makes flechette surprisingly good against spirits, which don't technically have armor, just Force*2 soak.