[X] My Assistant

[Blitz66]

As I said above, see the Arachne.

Yes, it ends up looking like a gun with legs. So?

And you know there's a weapon mod that lets a gun fly around like a bumblebee, right?



-k

There is? See, this is the kind of stuff I want to know about.

[KarmaInferno]

There is? See, this is the kind of stuff I want to know about.

The Arachne drone is from WAR. It's more or less a set of spider legs you attach to any weapon of up to LMG size, comes with a drone brain and Gecko Tips so if can crawl around on it's own, even on walls and ceilings, and shoot things for it's master. Or you can possibly just pick up the gun and use it normally.

The Propulsion System weapon mod from Arsenal requires the Pilot Upgrade mod and a smartlink equipped weapon. There are three versions, "limping" which lets the weapon move around slowly, "crawling" which lets it walk around like any other walking drone, and "flying" which gives it limited flight capacity. The Limping and Crawling versions are pretty much superseded by the Arachne drone these days though.

[EDIT]The Flying mod, as Miri helpfully points out, can be duplicated by attaching the weapon to an Optic-X from the core book. So there really is no good reason to use the Propulsion System mod anymore.




-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Arachne drone is from WAR. It's more or less a set of spider legs you attach to any weapon of up to LMG size, comes with a drone brain and Gecko Tips so if can crawl around on it's own, even on walls and ceilings, and shoot things for it's master. Or you can possibly just pick up the gun and use it normally.

The Propulsion System weapon mod requires the Pilot Upgrade mod and a smartlink equipped weapon. There are three versions, "limping" which lets the weapon move around slowly, "crawling" which lets it walk around like any other walking drone, and "flying" which gives it limited flight capacity. The Limping and Crawling versions are pretty much superseded by the Arachne drone these days though.

-k

Indeed, why go through all the trouble of giving the weapon mobility mods when the Arachne Drone is a better deal all around.

[KarmaInferno]

Spider-gun, Spider-gun,
Has a beltfeed of spider fun
Pops a burst, any size,
Catches targets just like flies
Look Out!
Here comes the Spider-gun!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)





-k

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Weird... I am not selectively reading the RAW on Modifications. I am reading the RAW and applying it as written. You cannot add a 250 round magazine to a pistol. Case Closed. I do not actually ignore the stupid stuff (Emotitoys notwithstanding). Most of it is there for balance (or something). Show me a rule where you can just make any modification willy nilly (other than the right to house-rule at any table) and I will quit commenting on this. Fact is, there is no rule for such equipment in the game, anywhere.

Wasn't it you who said to ignore stupid RAW? I am merely using normal grammar to interpret the rules text, and not interpreting stuff into it which isn't there. It says "adds 250 rounds capacity, belt feed, or...", with a clearly additive connotation on the comma. If they had intended otherwise, they should have written "adds 250 rounds to a belt fed weapon, or", which is just as long. Commas aren't used in the way you interpret that quote.

So, really, the pricing might be wrong, it might not make sense at all, but that sure is what it says.

Yes, you can indeed house-rule anything you like, but it is not the Rules from the book. Not arguing your house rule. I am arguing that the modifications being talked about DO NOT EXIST in the game.

Well, yes, which is why I find it easy to house-rule them in.

I find it funny that you believe that certain things do not exist [b](In SR, guns don't get hot. They don't cook off. They don't get barrel wear (as long as I don't glitch), etc.)[/b], but they do, there is just no RULE for them. If you do not use such things (Fluff, Flavor, or whatever else you may call it), that is not my issue. Guns get hot when you fire rounds through them. Fire too many, and you melt a barrel. Just because there are no rules for them does not mean that it does not happen.

No worries though. To each his own. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If there is no mechanical rule to make these things happen, then it's all in my good will to let them happen. If I blow 10 mags on full-auto through a subgun and the GM then says "your weapon is hot enough to melt", I migth say, "sure enough, but I reload and let fly again", because, as long as I don't glitch, nothing is going to happen. Of course, should I (critically) glitch, it's within the realm of possibility that the gun turns to mush, but that could have happened on the first round fired as well.

Now you can of course dislike that, and I'm inclined to agree that, yes, guns (IRL) DO get very hot. But unless you make a bullet counter that adds up heat like in Battletech or something, then heat isn't a GAME issue, and everyone is free to completely ignore it.

I think this is one of the main problems people have with SR: The game world is far too similar to the real world, so we think things should work the way they do in the real world. However, very often if we really want things to be like that, we actually have to house-rule them, or else the strange mechanics the authors thought up take effect. The authors just forgot to mention that.

Well, anyway, we aren't getting anywhere anymore, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

[KarmaInferno]

In general, if you're talking about a house rule, be specific that you are.

Most folks on the forums will be assuming you're talking about the books, which is perfectly reasonable, as they provide a common point of reference.




-k

[Faraday]

Until the barrel melts. And droops.

Reminds me of this video.

As for weapons/mods, I find that tasers a LOT. Always have one around with a laser sight (don't smartlink) and you'll have a totally street legal piece that does 8 stun damage.

-For any actual firearm, I smartlink it if at all possible, usually go for a top-mount.

-Some people dislike longarms, but they have their place. Sporting rifles make great sniping weapons that won't automatically get you arrested if you are caught with one and do nearly as much damage. Internal silencers, slings, and chameleon coating are all great here. Easy breakdown allows you to keep one in a suitcase, ready to go in 2.5-4 initiative passes. (depends on breakdown type and loading mechanism) Note that easy breakdown is still not forbidden.

-Shotguns are hard to hide (unless, again, you use easy breakdown), but they also won't get you arrested on sight if a Cop spots it. Even the full-auto ones.

-The Sakura Fubuki is a burst-fire weapon with a decent-sized clip and very little recoil. Trouble is, it's a muzzle-loader AND costs 2k nuyen. Still a great little number if you focus on making it concealable. Getting it down to a -5 visibility modifier is not difficult. On the other end of the scale is the Ares Slivergun. It's a heavy pistol with a damage code of 8P/+5 AP. The gun absolutely blows at killing drones or vehicles, but shredding up people is second nature. Even against armored goons, the damage code and burst fire rate makes the gun pretty scary for a heavy pistol since it'll most often deal stun damage.

-For a drone-killer in your pocket, bring a Ruger Warhawk loaded with Ex-Explosive rounds. That's 7P/-3 AP damage, which means that a couple net hits will damage pretty much any drone. Making a called shot to increase your damage will usually put you over most hardened vehicle armor.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't try to blame this on grammar. It works either way, 'grammatically'. It's only when you take into account actual (non-Miri) common sense, the entire rest of the game rules, and balance, that the incredibly obvious correct interpretation emerges. Grammar is neutral.

[Miri]

Don't try to blame this on grammar. It works either way, 'grammatically'. It's only when you take into account actual (non-Miri) common sense, the entire rest of the game rules, and balance, that the incredibly obvious correct interpretation emerges. Grammar is neutral.

And when you use that common sense and wonder.. why the hell can't I use that empty space for the belt hopper to fit cartridge ammo in some kind of feeder mechanism.. you get a 250 round clip for your burst firing Machine Pistol/Heavy Pistol. And it isn't obvious, Weapon mount says one thing, Ammo Bin says another.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/comma

[Blitz66]

The ratio of helpful info to petty bickering in my thread is getting alarming.

Miri, no one is going to buy the idea that a weapon gains a magical belt feed system that only takes a couple minutes to install and uninstall when you put it on a weapon mount, even if it is a single-shot weapon otherwise. That's not the sensible interpretation. You do what you want, but for the purposes of this thread, let's drop this line of discussion and assume that the only weapons that get the belt-fed ammo are the ones designed to be belt-fed.

EDIT: Brainpiercing, the same thing. The bit you quoted is most reasonably interpreted as 250 rounds in a belt feed format. If it added belt feed capacity to the weapon, I would expect a little more verbage along those lines.

Not that I WANT you to be wrong. A belt-fed Thunderstruck on a blimp would be sweet. Just doesn't seem plausible.

[Daier Mune]

The ratio of helpful info to petty bickering in my thread is getting alarming.

Welcome to Dumpshock! Or any other online forum, for that matter.

[Blitz66]

Welcome to Dumpshock! Or any other online forum, for that matter.

Yeah, I know. It's just that more than half the posts have been arguing about a point that is clarified on another page into something plausible, considering how firearms work. Why not devote the energy into talking about how to best put holes in things?

[Miri]

Very well. I will just leave you with this.

Relevant portion starts at 0:49.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

[Blitz66]

Cool. Thanks. Seems like a magazine substitution mod for the belt feed bin wouldn't be at all unreasonable a homebrew. Suspected that might be the case. A single-shot or revolver, on the other hand...

[suoq]

Very well. I will just leave you with this.

The 100 rounds in a glock using a double drum magazine portion of this video was already posted in the previous page of this thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

[Marwynn]

If there's one thing an enterprising hole-maker wants to remember is Arsenal p150. It's the list of which Recoil Compensators work together.

(And if you don't have enough RC then use a Gyro Harness. Actually, even if you have enough, a Gyro Harness also removes movement modifiers which is cool. Try to shoot for, ahem, an RC of 5 on the gun itself so that even at Full Auto on a run you'll have RC 11 or no modifiers: at least for moving and shooting.)

[KarmaInferno]

Very well. I will just leave you with this.

Relevant portion starts at 0:49.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI

And under Shadowrun rules, those would be Weapon Mods, not Vehicle Mods.

You can indeed increase ammo capacity by installing the various Weapon Mods. That is fine.

But a 200 nuyen Ammo Bin cannot magically feed 250 rounds of ammo to any weapon in the game that fires bullets regardless of their existing feed mechanism. That is all.

Heck, under the "ammo bin gives any bullet-based weapon 250 round ammo capacity" interpretation, you could insert the single shot Gun Cane into the system and somehow it would work. And THAT gun is reloaded by taking it apart.

The Ammo Bin is a box.



-k

[Blitz66]

That subtopic is over. Please stop talking about it.

[Faraday]

(And if you don't have enough RC then use a Gyro Harness. Actually, even if you have enough, a Gyro Harness also removes movement modifiers which is cool. Try to shoot for, ahem, an RC of 5 on the gun itself so that even at Full Auto on a run you'll have RC 11 or no modifiers: at least for moving and shooting.)

Gyrostabilization harnesses are awesome and all, but they're kinda bulky and it's slow to swap weapons. Cyberarm gyromounts only provide 3 RC, but you still get the movement modifiers negated without the inconvenience or obviousness of wearing a full-body harness.

[Neraph]

I now install a revolver into the turret. Wow! The feed mechanism now somehow loads 250 rounds into the cylinder!

It's like a really, really slow gatling gun!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Blitz66]

Gyrostabilization harnesses are awesome and all, but they're kinda bulky and it's slow to swap weapons. Cyberarm gyromounts only provide 3 RC, but you still get the movement modifiers negated without the inconvenience or obviousness of wearing a full-body harness.

So, cyberarm with gyromounts for unAwakened gun enthusiasts, harness for those with both mojo and the desire to shoot things. That sound right?

[CanRay]

So, cyberarm with gyromounts for unAwakened gun enthusiasts, harness for those with both mojo and the desire to shoot things. That sound right?

Yeah, pretty much.

But if you're able to kill things with your mind, why have a Panther Assault Cannon?

...

Adepts being the exception, of course.

[mmmkay]

Reminds me of this video.

As for weapons/mods, I find that tasers a LOT. Always have one around with a laser sight (don't smartlink) and you'll have a totally street legal piece that does 8 stun damage.

The reason you would choose a laser sight over a smartgun system is that laser sights keep the taser unrestricted? How easy would it be to determine a taser is a smartgun and therefore requires a license to own? For that matter how hard would it be to observe the internal modifications of any gun? If I looked at your taser with an internal silencer, would I know that it's forbidden immediately if I knew it had a silencer or would I even be able to tell if it had a silencer inside it in the first place?

-For any actual firearm, I smartlink it if at all possible, usually go for a top-mount.

If I plan on using tracer rounds, then a laser sight works better overall. Although there are a lot of benefits to switching ammo, reloading and such that are obtained when using a smartgun system.

-Some people dislike longarms, but they have their place. Sporting rifles make great sniping weapons that won't automatically get you arrested if you are caught with one and do nearly as much damage. Internal silencers, slings, and chameleon coating are all great here. Easy breakdown allows you to keep one in a suitcase, ready to go in 2.5-4 initiative passes. (depends on breakdown type and loading mechanism) Note that easy breakdown is still not forbidden.

-Shotguns are hard to hide (unless, again, you use easy breakdown), but they also won't get you arrested on sight if a Cop spots it. Even the full-auto ones.

How easy is it to spot a broken down weapon? Heavy pistols are apparently capable of being worn as jewelry, but the perception threshold was never mentioned. Presumably it is less than 4.

-The Sakura Fubuki is a burst-fire weapon with a decent-sized clip and very little recoil. Trouble is, it's a muzzle-loader AND costs 2k nuyen. Still a great little number if you focus on making it concealable. Getting it down to a -5 visibility modifier is not difficult. On the other end of the scale is the Ares Slivergun. It's a heavy pistol with a damage code of 8P/+5 AP. The gun absolutely blows at killing drones or vehicles, but shredding up people is second nature. Even against armored goons, the damage code and burst fire rate makes the gun pretty scary for a heavy pistol since it'll most often deal stun damage.

The Sakura Fubuki is a light pistol so it already has -2 concealability. Did you mean barrel reduction for concealability -3 and a concealed holster for -5 total? Or were you thinking chameleon coating and other stuff? I thought the Ares Viper Silvergun had a damage code of 8P/+2 AP, but perhaps that is a typo? I always thought that was a super cool flechette gun if it had an innate -3 AP. Was this errata'd or something? I thought I was up to date.

-For a drone-killer in your pocket, bring a Ruger Warhawk loaded with Ex-Explosive rounds. That's 7P/-3 AP damage, which means that a couple net hits will damage pretty much any drone. Making a called shot to increase your damage will usually put you over most hardened vehicle armor.

I like the image that comes to mind when I think of this.

I would like to thank Marwynn, suoq, Faraday, and especially UmaroVI for their detailed posts on firearms. I literally quadrupled my understanding of what makes a firearm good or relevant, since I seemed to be unaware that I was uneducated about the matter beforehand. Thanks again.

[CanRay]

I introduced Lone Star officers with Ruger Thunderhawks, and my group was "JESUSALLAHBUDDHA, WTF WAS THAT?"

No mods necessary. And they were just regular beat cops right out of a squad car.

[Marwynn]

Gyrostabilization harnesses are awesome and all, but they're kinda bulky and it's slow to swap weapons. Cyberarm gyromounts only provide 3 RC, but you still get the movement modifiers negated without the inconvenience or obviousness of wearing a full-body harness.

Swap weapons? I have never ever swapped guns on a harness while on a run. Hell, there are some runners out there who haven't even reloaded on a run before, but that's beside the point.

It is quite visible and it's not something you bring with you on every run, unless you're the armed backup guy (aka Plan B). Of course, you could cover it up with ruthenium coating, along with the weapon itself, and you wouldn't care less about how bulky it is.

Gyromounts are not exactly a convenient alternative. For one thing, you'll need at least a lower arm cyberlimb unless your GM lets you install them in cyberhands. That's essence loss and a rather blatant illegal mod to have to a cyberlimb. You could make it modular, but then if the point is to swap in the gyromount you might as well shrug into a harness.

Harnesses for everyone who wants to carry an SMG or Assault Rifle and do more than Suppressive Fire or short bursts. It's not for those times when you need to be incognito, but then again, why do you need a recoil-heavy weapon when you need subtlety?

For added fun, look up Battle Rifles. Hope my ramblings were of some use. Experiment (on corpsec)!