[X] My Assistant

[KarmaInferno]

And enhanced Rigger Cocoon with built in Mage Sight Goggles...

I may have a mystic adept rigger that does this. Possibly.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)




-k

[Fatum]

Perception modifiers affect the spellcasting test, it's in the rules.
And no electronic aids can be used for targeting spells, the rule seems pretty obvious to me - you can't target things you see on a screen, even if that screen is half an inch away from your eyes and transparent (so you could also see things yourself, too).

[Falanin]

If you're having problems getting your myometric rope to climb walls or snake itself through air-ducts correctly, you can always have a Kanmushi bug-drone carry it for you. Also handy if you don't want to try and manipulate the myomers manually. Just give the drone an order and go back to that firefight you were ignoring.

[Yerameyahu]

You're gonna want to back that up, Fatum. Are you merely talking about the Visibility mods, which we've already mentioned? In addition, you're using a different rule than the actual rules. Here's Glyph's point: "any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Here's the ambiguous one: "As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing device or other technological rendering of the target does not establish the necessary link." In the same paragraph with the above, this makes it tough to decide if Vision Enhancement on otherwise normal vision works, but my point remains that it doesn't matter… because a +3 to Perception plays zero part in spellcasting.

[Fatum]

You're gonna want to back that up, Fatum. Are you merely talking about the Visibility mods, which we've already mentioned? In addition, you're using a different rule than the actual rules. Here's Glyph's point: "any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character’s own visual senses—cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.—cannot be used."

Yeah, Visibility mods are what I mean.

Here's the ambiguous one: "As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-enhancing device or other technological rendering of the target does not establish the necessary link." In the same paragraph with the above, this makes it tough to decide if Vision Enhancement on otherwise normal vision works, but my point remains that it doesn't matter… because a +3 to Perception plays zero part in spellcasting.

Can't see how it is ambiguous... Vision Enhancement is non-relevant for spellcasting tests, you're right, but, say, ultrasound vision has a chance to be, since it detects targets under Invisibility. Still, Vision Enhancement, Radar or whatever - those are still just images on a semi-transparent screen you are seeing. Those you can't target. The actual targets you see with your own eyes through that screen, you can target.

[Yerameyahu]

We're agreeing, but you're phrasing it in a way that I think would confuse people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There are 'replace' visions and there are 'enhance' visions. Vision Enhancement is the latter, ultrasound/radar (and, I'm opining, low-light) are the former. Replace visions definitely don't give mystic LOS, but it's possible that enhance visions don't interfere with it. They also don't *help*, because (as we agree) Perception doesn't matter for casting (only Visibility penalties). The replace/enhance distinction is what Glyph and I are (idly) discussing.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
Thats really mulitble times in the rules...
If you are using a vision enhancement which has not been paied with essance for, you can't target spells...

It does not matter if there is a relevant boni. If I use glasses, which only make everything look yellow I could still not cast through them. (Unless the alteration is only optical)

[Yerameyahu]

And I disagree. You're using your normal vision there, it's not a substitute. You are not using a camera or a Matrix video feed to target; those would obviously be wrong. Light is hitting your eyes directly from the target (through a transparent material, which is 100% fine). If there's other crap also hitting your eyes, that's no business of the magic's.

The bonuses aren't part of the argument; I was just pointing out that the argument doesn't *matter* at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
The point is, that your definition of "substitute" is quite deliberate.
If I enhance the picture with electronics (granting +3 Perception) I have substituted the feed.

[suoq]

The problem is, again, "How do they work"? (Seems to be a trend for this week.)

Are the glasses a LED screen that shows fine detail or are the glasses a transparent material where additional information is projected onto the surface?

As an example I'll put forth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--EPJAE2hQ
From a fluff perspective, if you were driving this car with this enhancement, the enhancement tells you what's there. You can then look for it and see it sooner than you normally would have, and get line of sight very early.

In the above example, I'd grant the +3 to perception AND agree that the feed wasn't substituted.

BUT... Do goggles, glasses, contacts, etc. work this way? It's very easy to read the rules and decide that glasses/goggles/contacts/etc. are simply TV screens with cameras that for some bizarre reason do not come with a recording unit. On the other hand, one could take that lack of a recording unit to imply that the devices were part optical, part electronic, as in the above example.

[Yerameyahu]

Maybe. We don't know what it does. And there are a number of other enhancements; Glyph suggested that low-light is not a substitute. I disagree on that one, but there's room to consider on many of these. A smartlink, for example, just highlights or overlays (non-blocking); you wouldn't declare that a mage can't cast at someone just because they happen to be aim their gun as well.

I'm not saying a mage can target *anything* he couldn't otherwise see. I'm saying that non-substitute sense do not *add* any such thing. Visual Enhancement lets you see details (unnecessary for spells), Magnification lets you see things bigger (unnecessary for spells), etc. Glyph suggests that these would be relevant if the mage didn't see the target to begin with—that is, they were hidden/stealth. I agree, but in that case they're making a perfectly mundane check to spot them, and once spotted, they may well see them with normal, non-substituted vision.

Another reason, though, that this whole argument is irrelevant is that everyone should be receiving their visual enhancements via simsense via trodes, so it's totally impossible to block the real LOS. Hehe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

suoq, that true, but I think we have to assume that glasses, goggle, contacts, and binocs are transparent. Mostly because that's what glasses, contacts, etc. *are*.