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> Archetypes, Replacements for the SR4A Sample Characters
Nath
post Aug 15 2011, 08:31 PM
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I think in this context, "jumping in" refers to rigging, not to the CSI expert jumping from the police station roof to ride the drone.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (Kirk @ Aug 15 2011, 01:27 PM) *
I would love to disallow this by Arsenal rules, page 102.


Unfortunately, there's not only the orderly (a medium drone made to act as a perambulatory autonomous stretcher), there's the good old LEBD, which happens to include this little clause:


Gads, I hate when rules are inconsistent.


"Jumping In" does not mean "Riding." It is simply one method of Remote Piloting.
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Kirk
post Aug 15 2011, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2011, 04:47 PM) *
"Jumping In" does not mean "Riding." It is simply one method of Remote Piloting.


Aaaand, we see that my brain locked up. You're right. Thanks.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Kirk @ Aug 15 2011, 02:04 PM) *
Aaaand, we see that my brain locked up. You're right. Thanks.


Heh... No Worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Traul
post Aug 15 2011, 09:18 PM
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You mean I have been playing my rigger wrong?
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CanRay
post Aug 16 2011, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 15 2011, 04:18 PM) *
Rigger Wrong, CAS Bomber Pilot EXACTLY right.
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Cain
post Aug 16 2011, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2011, 11:52 AM) *
But WHY should they be AMAZING? There is absolutely no Need, as compared to the antagonists in the books.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have an AMAZING! game than an average one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mayhem_2006
post Aug 16 2011, 10:44 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2011, 05:01 AM) *
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have an AMAZING! game than an average one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


But if the only thing makign your game AMAZING is the stats of the characters, it's not really that amazing...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 16 2011, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 16 2011, 04:44 AM) *
But if the only thing makign your game AMAZING is the stats of the characters, it's not really that amazing...

Exactly... Thank You!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Cain
post Aug 16 2011, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 16 2011, 02:44 AM) *
But if the only thing makign your game AMAZING is the stats of the characters, it's not really that amazing...

To be completely fair: with my latest game, I set out for an over-the-top experience. Everything is AMAZING!! I like high-octane action movies, and originally I wanted to run Feng Shui instead of Shadowrun 4.5. Running the game with no brakes on is a lot of fun, and a good way to destruction-test the system.
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DamienKnight
post Aug 16 2011, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Aug 14 2011, 01:34 AM) *
Ballistic 27 Impact 25 Armor for the Troll?! Are you kidding?! I don't think I'd let a player have half that amount of armor. If that character got hit with a Cruise Missile (24P damage) and the attacker only got 1 success, the damage would be converted to Stun. And with 30+ dice to roll, there's a chance he might not even be knocked unconscious. The Heaviest Military Armor doesn't even offer that kind of Protection.
Super Cyber Tank Armor Rule does that to you. Cyberlimb armor is broken in 4th edition.


More noticable to me.. you have a low opinion of the strength attribute. I think your generalist has 1 str, your Ronin advertised as melee compatible has 3! I think I prefer the remakes in the Dumpshock Character archive. I really like your discriptions, key point and dice pool summaries and extensive gear list for each character though, so kudos on that.
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tete
post Aug 16 2011, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2011, 06:46 PM) *
To be completely fair: with my latest game, I set out for an over-the-top experience. Everything is AMAZING!! I like high-octane action movies, and originally I wanted to run Feng Shui instead of Shadowrun 4.5. Running the game with no brakes on is a lot of fun, and a good way to destruction-test the system.


egads man! Thats nutts! Feng Shui doesnt have near the amount of rule complications. Though fighting a great dragon without instantly dying does make for a good tale around the table.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 14 2011, 03:22 PM) *
If every one is super, no one is. Disparity is what makes a story. How you overcome the obstacles is a Story. If you always win, where is the Story?


I know what you mean but I gotta disagree, while a group doesn't have to be balanced it does need to be functional. You cant have the super min/maxed mage with 20 karma for rounding out playing with the no-cyberware or magic average joe with 20 karma for rounding out, playing in the same group because... no one would hire both these guys for the same job...
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 16 2011, 08:34 PM
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Well the nature of point buy systems is balance of opportunity not outcome. The trick is to try to get everyone on the same page of where you want the outcome. I think most of the current SR4.5 sample characters are decent in the outcome scale of where I would like the PCs to start. Some are on the weak side but would work great in a street campaign. Can people make a "better" street samurai than the sample given, sure. But you don't need the samples to be one of the best things possible to build, in fact I think you don't want them to be. You want them to be pretty good at what they are supposed to do, which most of the samples pull off fine.
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DamienKnight
post Aug 16 2011, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 16 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Well the nature of point buy systems is balance of opportunity not outcome. The trick is to try to get everyone on the same page of where you want the outcome. I think most of the current SR4.5 sample characters are decent in the outcome scale of where I would like the PCs to start. Some are on the weak side but would work great in a street campaign. Can people make a "better" street samurai than the sample given, sure. But you don't need the samples to be one of the best things possible to build, in fact I think you don't want them to be. You want them to be pretty good at what they are supposed to do, which most of the samples pull off fine.
Its not just power level that this post addresses, but some characters are missing vital gear and skills related to their supposed roles. I agree about the power level of the default prefab chars in the book, but you could not call them complete.
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suoq
post Aug 16 2011, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (tete @ Aug 16 2011, 02:51 PM) *
I know what you mean but I gotta disagree, while a group doesn't have to be balanced it does need to be functional. You cant have the super min/maxed mage with 20 karma for rounding out playing with the no-cyberware or magic average joe with 20 karma for rounding out, playing in the same group because... no one would hire both these guys for the same job...

Star wars, Lord of the rings, x-men. The new Avengers movie will have Hawkeye, who isn't even a b-lister.
Ronin could probably be argued either way depending on how good you think the driver is and if you count the guy who gets kicked to the curb.
But top of the line for dysfunctionals working with pros on a shadowrun would be Things to do in denver when you're dead.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 16 2011, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Aug 16 2011, 04:51 PM) *
Its not just power level that this post addresses, but some characters are missing vital gear and skills related to their supposed roles. I agree about the power level of the default prefab chars in the book, but you could not call them complete.



That is exaggerated IMO. Are there some skills gear I'd take in addition to what they have to round it out, but they can usually do the job at least at the base SR4A only level.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 16 2011, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 16 2011, 09:59 PM) *
Star wars, Lord of the rings, x-men. The new Avengers movie will have Hawkeye, who isn't even a b-lister.
Ronin could probably be argued either way depending on how good you think the driver is and if you count the guy who gets kicked to the curb.
But top of the line for dysfunctionals working with pros on a shadowrun would be Things to do in denver when you're dead.


But in a movie, it's the audience that needs to be entertained, not the actors. Power imbalance between movie characters isn't a problem for the audience. But in an RPG, it is a problem for the players, if one PC makes another one irrelevant due to differing power levels.
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Seerow
post Aug 16 2011, 11:02 PM
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Why do the characters use the average stats from cyberlimbs, but not average armor? Seriously, picking up a bunch of cyberlimbs with 3+ armor and being tougher than a tank just seems cheap, and it seems weird that getting armor on a single limb gives you more effective armor than a titanium skeleton. Making the armor average out across limbs makes more sense, and makes that troll a little less ridiculous.



Edit: On a unrelated note, an earlier post was talking about some modifications resulting in you being limited to a dicepool of 20 forever. What's that all about?
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suoq
post Aug 16 2011, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 16 2011, 04:32 PM) *
But in a movie, it's the audience that needs to be entertained, not the actors. Power imbalance between movie characters isn't a problem for the audience. But in an RPG, it is a problem for the players, if one PC makes another one irrelevant due to differing power levels.
It may be just me, but my experience is that differing power levels don't matter in Shadowrun as long as all the players only play their own part.
For example, I'll point at the "high powered face" thread. The face there is NOT high powered, but it doesn't matter because he's the face. It doesn't matter if he's rolling 12 dice or 20, because he's got the highest dice pool in the bunch.

In our home campaign, my character has the same dice pool for sneaky as our sneaky, but being sneaky is HER job. I ask if she wants backup but if she says no, I'll sit on the sidelines with everyone else. Likewise, I do have some social skills (less than our face but enough to deal with things if I get caught sneaking). But being the face isn't my job.

Imbalance only appears to be an issue when some player(s) wants the spotlight all the time. When the players can share the sandbox and play together, the group doesn't need to be balanced.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 16 2011, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE (Seerow @ Aug 16 2011, 06:02 PM) *
Why do the characters use the average stats from cyberlimbs, but not average armor? Seriously, picking up a bunch of cyberlimbs with 3+ armor and being tougher than a tank just seems cheap, and it seems weird that getting armor on a single limb gives you more effective armor than a titanium skeleton. Making the armor average out across limbs makes more sense, and makes that troll a little less ridiculous.



Edit: On a unrelated note, an earlier post was talking about some modifications resulting in you being limited to a dicepool of 20 forever. What's that all about?


Cyberlimbs do indeed work wierdly - but that's how they work. This has been confirmed repeatedly. Such are the consequences of an abstracted armor system, I guess.

The dice pool cap (used in SRM, and I highly recommend using it in any campaign) limits your rolled dice on skill tests to 2x(unaugmented stat + unaugmented skill) or 20, whichever is higher. So someone with 4( 8 ) Agility and skill 4 has a cap of 20, but someone with, say, 7(10) agility and 6 skill has a cap of 26.

Re: Strength
Strength has its uses (Recoil Compensation, Athletics), but it is only marginally helpful in melee - it helps you Subdue, but unless you have a whole ton of it, it doesn't help you hit people because of Shock Gloves. The Ronin benefits from melee skill because he can fight effectively with a shock glove (which is legal and concealable), and because many enemies (such as spirits and paracritters) like to melee, and it gives him a better defense check against them.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 16 2011, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Aug 16 2011, 08:23 PM) *
More noticable to me.. you have a low opinion of the strength attribute. I think your generalist has 1 str, your Ronin advertised as melee compatible has 3! I think I prefer the remakes in the Dumpshock Character archive. I really like your discriptions, key point and dice pool summaries and extensive gear list for each character though, so kudos on that.


Part of that is that Strength is a weak attribute. Tests using it are rare, it's expensive DV-wise, and it factors into very few things. While being strong has it advantages, affording it makes you much more meh at the main stuff you want to do. As for the Ronin, he's got a good melee roll with his shock glove which doesn't care about strength. In addition, subdue is useful and surprisingly net hits based. If it wasn't for the availability cap, you could rock a 8 strength cyberlimb pretty easy and that's respectable for punching though sadly you'll have to make the limb bulky as well or cut something to stick a spur in it.

You might be able to make a decent Pugilist melee character. The issue is making one that isn't a one trick pony (just being good at punching dudes in face, even the Bad Enough Trog is good at different types of combat) in a world of much better ponies at the same trick (spirits and paracritters). You could do it with Martial Arts, but then everyone else would want those as well (the same goes for SURGE and somewhat for metavarients).

QUOTE (Seerow)
Why do the characters use the average stats from cyberlimbs, but not average armor? Seriously, picking up a bunch of cyberlimbs with 3+ armor and being tougher than a tank just seems cheap, and it seems weird that getting armor on a single limb gives you more effective armor than a titanium skeleton. Making the armor average out across limbs makes more sense, and makes that troll a little less ridiculous.

Edit: On a unrelated note, an earlier post was talking about some modifications resulting in you being limited to a dicepool of 20 forever. What's that all about?


The way averaging stats from cyberlimbs is done is mainly from trying to piece together the SR4A page on the subject and the example given (SR4A 333). As for armor, it's based of the FAQ that Missions refers too. In addition, it's a fairly reasonable read of the appropriate section of the book about it being cumulative with worn armor (SR4A 334). It's really bad when you do cyberhands and feet with armor 2 (armor 3 if the GM won't aggro on you for using bulky).

I guess you could say that the cyberlimb armor doesn't stack with itself (thus you buy one set of armor 3 or use a limb for nothing but armor 7 with a cybertorso), though I think that's a bit more of a search of a reading (and might have impact on other armor rules elsewhere). Also, the Trog is paying out the nose for the privilege of having good armor including cutting himself from the very handy though not crucial 3rd IP.

As for getting an armored cyberlimb is better than titanium bone lacing (technically the bone lacing gives 1 extra die for resisting damage but cyberlimbs come with so much more), I really do think bone lacing (and its brother in arms dermal plating) needs to be buffed. It's effectively the same numberwise from older editions despite the entire rules set changing around it.

The dice pools being limited forever to 20 has to do with using cyberarms of awesome and the Missions dice pool caps (20 or natural attribute + natural skill x 2 whatever is higher). Since the cyberarm of awesome route is built around low attributes offset by a comparatively inexpensive cyberarm, it's hard to a cyberarm of awesome user to have a natural attribute + natural skill that is greater than 10. Thus, you're stuck at the 20 dice pool cap. You could spend karma to raise your physical attributes high enough to break the cap, but you're getting very little for the large amount of karma you would have to spend. Also, if you were going for a high agility or whatever, you would have just bought that at creation rather than blowing money on a cyberarm of awesome.
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Seerow
post Aug 17 2011, 12:03 AM
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Thanks for the explanations

-I knew there was a dice pool cap rule, I was however unaware that it used unaugmented stat rather than augmented stat as the cap. That is interesting to know, I just always assumed it used the augmented (since most people will have at most a 5 naturally in a stat before racial mods even if they are avoiding full cyberlimb replacement, you're looking at a capped dice pool of 22 tops).

-The way I always thought cyberlimb armor worked (or at least should work) was that it averaged out, just like the cyberlimbs do (with the addition of averaging the head, where it normally wouldn't). But I guess that isn't the RAW, so doesn't matter here. But the way I figured it was with a full cyber replacement, you could get 7 bonus armor. Which is honestly a lot, it's like a whole extra armor jacket that stacks with everything else. The RAW of it is with that investment you get 35 armor, which is insane.

-Bone Lacing is actually pretty decent. If they were going to buff it the one change I would like to see is the extra damage resist dice becoming actual body (thus enabling you to wear more armor as well as granting a tiny bit of it, plus the other fringe benefits of high body, being harder to affect with some types of magic, etc). Though a lower essence cost wouldn't hurt. Honestly though I'm picking it up on my current character primarily for the unarmed strike damage boost.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 17 2011, 12:24 AM
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Armor Enhancement has a max of 4.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 17 2011, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 17 2011, 12:18 AM) *
It may be just me, but my experience is that differing power levels don't matter in Shadowrun as long as all the players only play their own part.
For example, I'll point at the "high powered face" thread. The face there is NOT high powered, but it doesn't matter because he's the face. It doesn't matter if he's rolling 12 dice or 20, because he's got the highest dice pool in the bunch.

In our home campaign, my character has the same dice pool for sneaky as our sneaky, but being sneaky is HER job. I ask if she wants backup but if she says no, I'll sit on the sidelines with everyone else. Likewise, I do have some social skills (less than our face but enough to deal with things if I get caught sneaking). But being the face isn't my job.

Imbalance only appears to be an issue when some player(s) wants the spotlight all the time. When the players can share the sandbox and play together, the group doesn't need to be balanced.


Most of the time, you're right. The Sam doesn't mind so much if the Face is better at social than the Sam, and that the Hacker is better at hacking.

But in combat, that doesn't work so well. Because of three main reasons, I think:
1) Combat is often the climax of a mission.
2) In combat, your character might die if he's not good at it.
3) Combat takes a lot of OOC time, so being good at combat means your moment in the spotlight takes a lot of time.

Those are three good reasons why every character needs to be able to do meaningful stuff in combat. And it works better if a character's contributions aren't entirely overshadowed by the Sam, even though it's okay if he's better - as long as the other players feel they can do something in combat that matters.

And that requires some coordination of character power levels.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 17 2011, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 17 2011, 01:24 AM) *
Armor Enhancement has a max of 4.


Oops. Yeah, you'll just stick +3 armor on one limb and call it a day.

As for the "well everyone has a niche on a team and it doesn't matter everyone else sticks in that niche" thought, in missions a lot of times you really do end up with guys who are just worst than another character at the same table. It really stinks to earn your paycheck purely due to the fact pay is per PC instead of lump sum.
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