Ghost Cartels, ...are they completely nuts? Options

[Ascalaphus]

To be fair, AFAIK the idea isn't to kill the Yama king, just to get away. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that any enemy you meet ought to be defeatable.

[Elfenlied]

We are 2 Sams with Ares Alphas and Exexplosive, a mage with (now) magic rating of 3 (Sorcery 5+Specialisation combat) and edge 5 plus a rigger with a small rotordrone. Tell me how to survive.

Load everything with SnS, and fire wide bursts. You'll still need 4 net hits to penetrate him though. If your DM banned SnS, get Tasers instead. There's a S8 Taser in the core rulebook. If you can, get some white phosphorous grenades.
You don't have filtering/cleansing or any such metamagic?

[Mäx]

We are 2 Sams with Ares Alphas and Exexplosive, a mage with (now) magic rating of 3 (Sorcery 5+Specialisation combat) and edge 5 plus a rigger with a small rotordrone. Tell me how to survive.

One of the Sammies(or the rigger in a drone) should have been carrying either S&S for his alpha or (my earlier succestion) a pair of Defiance ex Shockers or a rocket launcher with either Inferno Rocket or Zapper Static Discharge Rocket or one of the multitude of other weapons that are effective at killing spirits.

In other words, you should have more variety on your teams weaponry,then 2 sammies with identical Ares Alphas, actually even those alphas could make short work of the Yama King if you have had any Willy Pete grenades for the underbarrel launchers.

[last_of_the_grea...]

The Yama King is unbeatable... except for the fact that us players are nuts. We carry stuff that we'd never concievably need on our character sheets. We play characters that make poor shadowrunners. We also get Lucky Dice Rolls that completely fubar anything a writer could write. This is why they refuse to make named NPC great dragon stats official.

Case in point: my very experienced elf. He is completely mundane, had (he's upgraded since then) little 'ware and ended uyp left behind by the team as the helicopter pilot decided it was to risky to wait for the poor elf who'd lagged behind. So, I roll up my sleeves, trash talk like The Rock, then, in two turns I beat the living crap out of him with edge boosted attacks of will! Boss fight solo kill! Now he's a legend in Kowloon. I believe I got enough experience points from that one to go up 2 whole levels!

[Machiavelli]

One of the Sammies(or the rigger in a drone) should have been carrying either S&S for his alpha or (my earlier succestion) a pair of Defiance ex Shockers or a rocket launcher with either Inferno Rocket or Zapper Static Discharge Rocket or one of the multitude of other weapons that are effective at killing spirits.

In other words, you should have more variety on your teams weaponry,then 2 sammies with identical Ares Alphas, actually even those alphas could make short work of the Yama King if you have had any Willy Pete grenades for the underbarrel launchers.

Argh...always the stupid discussion "SnS against Spirits". We prefer a little bit realistic flavour for our game so SnS does nothing against spirits. A taser or a stun-baton is nothing else than a taser on as string/stick so they are also no exception from that rule. So if we depent on "common" streetsams, "common" mages without THE ONE metatechnique that could save our asses (and already would be an advanced version of another one) WHAT else than running can you do? I don´t see a solution. I play SR since a long time, i am powergamer for life, i know the loopholes and i hated the Harlequin Adenture because it forced the players into a next to meaningless role. Now i am stuck into an adventure that hits you with unbeatable NPC´s again....i didn´t read the rest of the book to keep the surprise of what is coming next...but if it goes on like that....

[LurkerOutThere]

Edit: I'm not seeing the problem with the scenario actually, just a problem with the load out.

So you said how to survive, folks pointed out that you just need to run if your not set up to fight such an opponent, in the same post that you claim to be a power gamer for life you also cry about how the NPC opposition is unbeatable, even though there is ample evidence of others doing just that. You want REALISM when giant spirits and personification of demons are present.

Almost any elemental attack goes to half, even if you don't like stick and shock there are other options out there.

[Machiavelli]

The Yama King is unbeatable... except for the fact that us players are nuts. We carry stuff that we'd never concievably need on our character sheets. We play characters that make poor shadowrunners. We also get Lucky Dice Rolls that completely fubar anything a writer could write. This is why they refuse to make named NPC great dragon stats official.

Case in point: my very experienced elf. He is completely mundane, had (he's upgraded since then) little 'ware and ended uyp left behind by the team as the helicopter pilot decided it was to risky to wait for the poor elf who'd lagged behind. So, I roll up my sleeves, trash talk like The Rock, then, in two turns I beat the living crap out of him with edge boosted attacks of will! Boss fight solo kill! Now he's a legend in Kowloon. I believe I got enough experience points from that one to go up 2 whole levels!

How did you do that? Attack of will is solved Willpower+Banishing. I don´t think that your mundane elf owns the banishing skill and even if you have a lot of edge, you could have max. 12 dices for this attack. The yama king is force 9. This means 18 dices unarmed combat, even if he lacks the armor....how should that work? Did you talk away his dice?^^

[Makki]

I agree, he's too strong for mundane weapons. especially after correcting its hardened armor to Force*2.
But he has one great weakness. ONLY Edge 3, the auhors were correct here. Free Spirits do not have Edge=Force. He has ofc Banishing Resistance which means 3 virtual services that need to be banished away.
He rolls 9 dice, because he is unbound. For a BC of 2 you need Magic 7 to be able to banish spirits up to F10. For a BC of 1, Magic 6 is enough.
Now the Mage rolls Banishing+Magic+Edge against the Spirit's force and needs three net hits and the spirit is gone. If the spirit uses edge to resist, his virtual services decreases and banishing becomes easier.
It will result in heave physical drain, but perfectly doable.

btw plz read your PMs...

Edit: another way would be to pornomance the yama king towards other targets. he has no social skills, so he has to default on Force-1 to resist deception *g*

[Elfenlied]

Argh...always the stupid discussion "SnS against Spirits". We prefer a little bit realistic flavour for our game so SnS does nothing against spirits. A taser or a stun-baton is nothing else than a taser on as string/stick so they are also no exception from that rule. So if we depent on "common" streetsams, "common" mages without THE ONE metatechnique that could save our asses (and already would be an advanced version of another one) WHAT else than running can you do? I don´t see a solution. I play SR since a long time, i am powergamer for life, i know the loopholes and i hated the Harlequin Adenture because it forced the players into a next to meaningless role. Now i am stuck into an adventure that hits you with unbeatable NPC´s again....i didn´t read the rest of the book to keep the surprise of what is coming next...but if it goes on like that....

Spirits and realism? Do I smell hypocrisy?

That said, there's still White Phosphorous Grenades, which are relatively easy to obtain. Or are they against your sense of "realism" too?

[Machiavelli]

No, this one would work quite fine. But we don´t have them at hand. I would try the pornomancer-idea Makki proposed...but i don´t know if it works. I have charisma 7 and the influence group on 1 with a specialization in bargaining...maybe i can deal myself into a spirit pact with him? Ok, the book says he hates mages of all traditions...maybe this could cause trouble.^^

[Machiavelli]

Spirits and realism? Do I smell hypocrisy?

That said, there's still White Phosphorous Grenades, which are relatively easy to obtain. Or are they against your sense of "realism" too?

Lets say at least so realistic, that we think an electrical charge that is made to overload nervous systems doesn´t work on spirital beings that don´t HAVE a nervous system. ^^

[Elfenlied]

No, this one would work quite fine. But we don´t have them at hand. I would try the pornomancer-idea Makki proposed...but i don´t know if it works. I have charisma 7 and the influence group on 1 with a specialization in bargaining...maybe i can deal myself into a spirit pact with him? Ok, the book says he hates mages of all traditions...maybe this could cause trouble.^^

Do you have another face in your group? Or a character with semi-decent social skills/charisma and an Emotitoy/Emotion software? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Lets say at least so realistic, that we think an electrical charge that is made to overload nervous systems doesn´t work on spirital beings that don´t HAVE a nervous system. ^^

Fair enough. I guess every table rules differently in that regard. That means using poison is out for you too, by that definition (I was gonna suggest Narcoject+Parashield weapons as a backup plan). Note, however, that those houserules are directly responsible for your "unbeatable npc" dilemma.

On a side note: how much prep time do you have for the encounter with the Yama King? Judging by your post, you're already there, and stuck in a cliff hanger?

[Machiavelli]

Correct. Poison also doesn´t work and we banned possession magic for being broken. Otherwise we kept all the original rules but i am forbidden to create super-characters anymore. I can live with that. ^^

Right, this is actually the cliffhanger. My char. has already been in Kowloon City and we swore to never come back again. Now Mrs. J told us "just to accompany" her and then the shit hit the fan. Right at the moment we are on top of the building trying to escape, the Sams are nearly out of ammo and i am in front of the demon, unprepared and with 3 points of drain from previous overcast spells. Welcome to my world.

[Elfenlied]

So elemental aura bullets are out of the equation too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Do you have a list of the equipment/skillset available for you in your current situation? Thus far, your group seems ill prepared for the brute force approach, and pornomancy ain't gonna work either if you're the only face character on your team. I suggest avoiding the fight, or luring some of the goons to him as distraction.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Argh...always the stupid discussion "SnS against Spirits". We prefer a little bit realistic flavour for our game so SnS does nothing against spirits. A taser or a stun-baton is nothing else than a taser on as string/stick so they are also no exception from that rule. So if we depent on "common" streetsams, "common" mages without THE ONE metatechnique that could save our asses (and already would be an advanced version of another one) WHAT else than running can you do? I don´t see a solution. I play SR since a long time, i am powergamer for life, i know the loopholes and i hated the Harlequin Adenture because it forced the players into a next to meaningless role. Now i am stuck into an adventure that hits you with unbeatable NPC´s again....i didn´t read the rest of the book to keep the surprise of what is coming next...but if it goes on like that....

If you are not willing to use the tools that are present in the Game, and that the Writers are assuming that you are using, then your only other option is to run away when you are faced with such a situation. Nothing says that you cannot run.

[Machiavelli]

The rigger has the mentioned rotordrone with an assault rifle attached. The sams have the mentioned ares alphas and all are equipped with exex-ammunition. I don´t know exactly how much ammo is left, but it will be enough for a long burst. We are all well amored and the sams all carry personal sidearms with Shock-ammo. There are some fragmentation-, IR-smoke and HiEx-Grenades left but they will cause nothing. I am able to (offensively) cast stunbolt/stunball, Manabolt/manaball, fireball, influence and control mind. Most of the buff-spells are at hand (imp. invis, levitate) but i lack energy-aura or metatechniques that could help me now. I also don´t have the banishing-skill because we just agreed to let it be some kind of counterspelling for spirit powers. The only techniques i know are masking, advanced masking and quickening.

[Elfenlied]

Hmm, do you have any Edge left? If so, you might be able to mask yourself successfully. Your DP should afaik be 6 (your magic rating) + 3 (your initiate rating) + intuition, vs the DP 18 of the spirit. Tough, I know.

Do any of your characters have the explosives skill? Do you have access to Task spirits? If so, improvise a bomb out your grenades and some ammo, and pray that it suffices.

[Machiavelli]

I have 3 edge left i think. Masking ain´t got a problem, but if i get into trouble with the beast, i will definitely cast somthing and then my cover is blown anyway.

One of the sams has the explosives skill, but doesn´t it need a lot of time to improvise a bomb? The pornomancing idea is getting better and better. He only has his force-charisma dices and if i use edge i get 7 charisma + 3 bargaining + 3-5 edge (don´t know how it works). If the GM allows this use i will try this one.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rigger has the mentioned rotordrone with an assault rifle attached. The sams have the mentioned ares alphas and all are equipped with exex-ammunition. I don´t know exactly how much ammo is left, but it will be enough for a long burst. We are all well amored and the sams all carry personal sidearms with Shock-ammo. There are some fragmentation-, IR-smoke and HiEx-Grenades left but they will cause nothing. I am able to (offensively) cast stunbolt/stunball, Manabolt/manaball, fireball, influence and control mind. Most of the buff-spells are at hand (imp. invis, levitate) but I lack energy-aura or metatechniques that could help me now. I also don´t have the banishing-skill because we just agreed to let it be some kind of counterspelling for spirit powers. The only techniques i know are masking, advanced masking and quickening.

So, the spirit has what, 9 Dice to resist your Stunbolt/Influence Spells? Or does it have Counterspelling as well? ITNW does squat against real magic. All you need is a few seconds to distract him to another target (so you can get to the Chopper) and you can get away. AS for Banishing, Sucks that you don't have it, but this is the perfect reason why mages should be studying and using that skill. It may not be optimal for all situations, but it does have its place, and this is it. Why not levitate you and your group off the roof and around the Spirit? Drain Intensive (probably need to multicast to catch everyone simultaneously) to be sure, but doable.

[Machiavelli]

Depends on the GM if he lets us escape. The book says that he sits right between the excape-helicopter and our team, chomping on the dead bodies of 2 of the gangs mages and the autocannon of the heli doesn´t seem to harm him.....

The yama-king is a free spirit with the counterspelling-skill. So, it is 18 dices agains 7+3 on my side. If i use edge and overcast...maybe....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Depends on the GM if he lets us escape. The book says that he sits right between the excape-helicopter and our team, chomping on the dead bodies of 2 of the gangs mages and the autocannon of the heli doesn´t seem to harm him.....

The yama-king is a free spirit with the counterspelling-skill. So, it is 18 dices agains 7+3 on my side. If i use edge and overcast...maybe....

Yeah, Counterspelling sucks. AS for him sitting there, I am pretty sure he does not "Fly" per se. The levitate trick might work out well for ya if the chopper takes off and meets you off the building. Talking is looking better and better for you.

[Elfenlied]

You can also combine Levitate with the mentioned distractions. Mindrape some locals to distract the Yama-King (or attack him, if you're cruel). Combine Levitate with Concealment; it also works on the Astral plane.

[Machiavelli]

I think so too...but i think a very sick thought is coming up into my even sicker brain. I have the surge-quality "bad vibe" (or however it is called in english) and because my GM switched my mentor spirit benefits a little bit, i get a an increase of 2 dice for intimidation-purposes (the spirits are talking with me what gives me a creepy impression). So this would be charisma (7) + bad vibe (3) + mentor (2)....maybe i can scare him off? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Note that your DM might rule that the Yama-King gets some huge situational bonuses against your Intimidation. He's stronger than you (he'll likely assens you), he's on his home turf, and you don't have anything that can realistically scare him.

Personally, I'd try bargaining first. If that fails, you can still attempt to intimidate him.

[Mäx]

Argh...always the stupid discussion "SnS against Spirits". We prefer a little bit realistic flavour for our game so SnS does nothing against spirits. A taser or a stun-baton is nothing else than a taser on as string/stick so they are also no exception from that rule. So if we depent on "common" streetsams, "common" mages without THE ONE metatechnique that could save our asses (and already would be an advanced version of another one) WHAT else than running can you do?

Did you actually read that post futher then the S&S/Shockers part, becouse it lists multiple other options and if those aren't enought here's a few more(for some of them you need a shooter with highly above average dicepool or/and edge) .
Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle(not common to have, but it just murders sprits, only needs 1 nethit)
Barret Model 121 loaded with APDS rounds(needs 2 nethits)[if GM allows a called shot for extra damage only 1 net hit is needed]
Ares Vigorous Assault Cannon loaded with AV rounds(needs 3 nethits)[if GM allows a called shot for extra damage only 1 net hit is needed]
Ares Desert Strike loaded with APDS rounds(needs 4 nethits)[if GM allows a called shot for extra damage only 1 net hit is needed]
Ruger Super Warhawk loaded with APDS rounds (needs 5 nethits)[if GM allows a called shot for extra damage only 1 net hit is needed]
any assault rifle loaded with APDS rounds(needs 7 net-hits, hard but possible, wide burst helps)
etc.

Really there are quite many ways for a common streetsam to deal with the Yama King, it's not really the writers fault if all your teams sammies are packing is an ares alpha loaded with ex-ex and the heavies weapon in your team riggers drones is an assault rifle too.