[X] My Assistant

[Neraph]

Which can be achieved either through chain-Shapechange, Increase Body, or being a meta.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which can be achieved either through chain-Shapechange, Increase Body, or being a meta.

Don't agree with the chaining of Shapechange, Increase Body does work, as long as you maintain it through out the duration of the Shapechange as well (effectively Sustaining 2 spells). Meta is the obvious choice, of course, but not everyone likes playing a Meta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[HunterHerne]

Requires a higher base Body though, doesn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Chaining of "Increase Body" Notwithstanding (Cheesy)...

A rhinoceros requires at least 10 body to be able to transform into. Unless they are using any of the permanent increased attribute possibilities, and max, no human or elf will manage it.

[Neraph]

Don't agree with the chaining of Shapechange, Increase Body does work, as long as you maintain it through out the duration of the Shapechange as well (effectively Sustaining 2 spells). Meta is the obvious choice, of course, but not everyone likes playing a Meta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't want to rekindle any fires here (for those a little newer, the last Shapechange thread I was in went over 14 pages IIRC), but from a RAW and purely mechanical standpoint, and because of the poor wording of the spell, chain-Shapechange works and you don't need to sustain the Increase Body for you to get a bigger animal. However I do agree that the poor wording aside they probably did not intend to create such an amazing spell.

[HunterHerne]

Don't agree with the chaining of Shapechange, Increase Body does work, as long as you maintain it through out the duration of the Shapechange as well (effectively Sustaining 2 spells). Meta is the obvious choice, of course, but not everyone likes playing a Meta. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have to agree with this, wholeheartedly.

[Neraph]

Here's the full discussion for those interested.

[Irion]

@Neraph
I know thats your special way of reading the rules again, and I know better than getting in an argument about it.
Only so far:
This interpretation you go with is one of many. And a quite "special" one. (It has a lot of "lets assume" in it)

[Neraph]

Not really. The wording is lacking in many areas - enough so that my interpretation is perfectly valid. It may be unpalatable, but it is a valid interpretation.

EDIT: I should also point out again that the interpretation I pointed out isn't neccessarily how I run it in my games, nor is it the only interpretation. I am simply pointing out that it is a valid interpretation.

[Irion]

Flying trolls are also a valid interpretation of RAW.
This has been done over and over again.
There is no way you can be always 100% accurate and have a game thats fun to play. (Because interpretating/writing like that would leave you with few you are still able to do.)

[HunterHerne]

Flying trolls are also a valid interpretation of RAW.
This has been done over and over again.
There is no way you can be always 100% accurate and have a game thats fun to play. (Because interpretating/writing like that would leave you with few you are still able to do.)

That's true. Still, chaining Shapechange is a little iffy... by common sense and logic. I know those don't mean much.

[Xahn Borealis]

For the record it was a spelling error, the plural of bonus is bonuses and not "boni", I share Xahn's annoyance at that one.

Grammar, I think. But in that case, I'm pretty sure he was just pointing out a dirty thought he had.

Edited for spelling, at the request of Irion.

This. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

That's true. Still, chaining Shapechange is a little iffy... by common sense and logic. I know those don't mean much.

I explain it in that 14 page thread I linked.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I explain it in that 14 page thread I linked.

But not enough to overcome the Common Sense and Logic that HunterHerne is talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I have absolutely no issue with you chaining the spells, AS LONG AS YOU SUSTAIN THEM AS WELL. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Lemmeh take a puff from my inhaler that has Psyche and it won't even be a problem...

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think anyone fails to *understand* the chaining idea. It's *buying* it that's a problem. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Elfenlied]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Orang-Utans, or other anthropomorphic animals yet. Shapechange into an Ape, get awesome physical stats, and use metahuman equipment (remember, customization is available!). Slap on some possession spirits, and you've got the Conqueror Ape from the Spirit of the Century Cover. Except this time, he comes with firearms!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Lemmeh take a puff from my inhaler that has Psyche and it won't even be a problem...

Except that Psyche does not remove the penalties, it just reduces them. The penalties are still there.
And you still have the Drawbacks (Fluff though they may be) to deal with.

Psyche users are simultaneously hyper-aware and detached, easily absorbed by detail and obsessive about certain facts or problems.

*shrug*

[Neraph]

Except that Psyche does not remove the penalties, it just reduces them. The penalties are still there.
And you still have the Drawbacks (Fluff though they may be) to deal with.

I meant that the sustaining modifiers won't be that much an issue. For example, with Psyche, if you increase your Agility from a 3 to a 10, you're still at a net +8 dicepool bonus. Now you still can't wear armor or use weapons, but that wasn't the point (and with the proper animal you've now turned into, you have a bit of armor and a substantially better Body).

[Machiavelli]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Orang-Utans, or other anthropomorphic animals yet. Shapechange into an Ape, get awesome physical stats, and use metahuman equipment (remember, customization is available!). Slap on some possession spirits, and you've got the Conqueror Ape from the Spirit of the Century Cover. Except this time, he comes with firearms!

Because orang utans (and apes generally) are not cool. ^^

[Elfenlied]

Because orang utans (and apes generally) are not cool. ^^

You see that Ape flying a Doppeldecker? Tell me again he ain't cool. He gives Chewie a run for his money (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Machiavelli]

He ain´t cool....see? It worked out.^^. Don´t know why, but i don´t like apes. They don´t look cool in comparison with cats or dogs. Maybe because they are too human-like.^^

[Irion]

Yeah, too much human like to be mysterious and too less humanlike to be sexy. So just not cool, dude.

Yeah I know they are the best choice, which makes them even less cool.

I

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I meant that the sustaining modifiers won't be that much an issue. For example, with Psyche, if you increase your Agility from a 3 to a 10, you're still at a net +8 dicepool bonus. Now you still can't wear armor or use weapons, but that wasn't the point (and with the proper animal you've now turned into, you have a bit of armor and a substantially better Body).

Point Taken...

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, too much human like to be mysterious and too less humanlike to be sexy. So just not cool, dude.

Yeah I know they are the best choice, which makes them even less cool.

I

A Brother in mind...wonderful.^^

[Elfenlied]

He ain´t cool....see? It worked out.^^. Don´t know why, but i don´t like apes. They don´t look cool in comparison with cats or dogs. Maybe because they are too human-like.^^

Comparisons with dogs and cats aren't fair. It's like comparing Dryads and Fomori. The formers are desireable, cute pets, and the latters are pure combat machines taken for their stats.

Yeah, too much human like to be mysterious and too less humanlike to be sexy. So just not cool, dude.

Yeah I know they are the best choice, which makes them even less cool.

I

For the combat monsters, see the above statement. As for the rest, I'll get back to you after watching the new Planet of the Apes movie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)