[X] My Assistant

[Miri]

I said we treat it as an ActiveSoft, or other emulatable hardware.

Limits imply that there are .... LIMITS. Notice that they did not allow a Tacnet to advance to Rating 10 like other Programs. Notice that they did not allow ActiveSofts to advance to Rating 7 like Normal Skills can. You want a Tacsoft, you buy it From Rating 1-4. A Technomancer wants a Tacsoft CF, he gets to emulate it (much like an ActiveSoft, Smartlink, or SimRig) from Rating 1-4, and then purchase it as such. Because he has to emulate it to start with, he cannot Thread it above the learned level he bought it at. Just like he cannot thread the Smartlink to all of a suden provide +10 to its use.

To be honest... Given the effort involved in taking advantage of a threaded Rank 10 Tacsoft I'd say let them have it. If they do a normal tacnet then 12 Technomancers would be needing to thread their Tacsoft up and they would each have to each provide 20 channels of data input. If there is only 1 Technomancer doing a Centralized TacNet then that TM would need a Living Persona System of at least 6 (so that he can slave at least 11 other commlinks to his Persona) and then each of them would need to provide 20 channels of data input. That is a pretty large hurdle.

Even a more reasonable threaded rank 5 tacsoft means either 7 Technomancers in a tacnet or a Persona System rating of at least 4 (more reasonable) plus 10 data channels.

As for threading a Smartlink Complex form up and getting +10 I have no idea where that is coming from.

I just find the arbitrary limiting Tactical Software to the Emulation rules somewhat odd is all *shrug* when Emulation is used for Skillsofts and Tacsofts give AR based information as opposed to telling your body how to move.

[suoq]

Personally, I'm fine with Unwired 125

Tactical software has a maximum rating of 4.

I don't see how a technomancer can emulate software that can't possibly exist, so adding more rules to prevent what's already impossible seems like an over-complication to me.

[Miri]

Personally, I'm fine with Unwired 125 I don't see how a technomancer can emulate software that can't possibly exist, so adding more rules to prevent what's already impossible seems like an over-complication to me.

Um.. who says the TM has to Emulate tacsoft? They don't emulate any of the Common or Hacking programs do they? They can can thread Smartlink and Simrigs up without having to Emulate.

As far as using a complex form of software that doesn't exist.. a Technomancer who gets his Resonance to 7 can Thread Exploit to 14.. even Milspec stuff doesn't go beyond 12 so are you saying a TM can't do that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I just find the arbitrary limiting Tactical Software to the Emulation rules somewhat odd is all *shrug* when Emulation is used for Skillsofts and Tacsofts give AR based information as opposed to telling your body how to move.

Why is that ODD, when the Tactical Software is ALREADY limited to Rating 4? Keeps teh technology sane, to me.

[Warlordtheft]

Unless you find your way around dealing with the Copy Protection issue: yes.

Which given the ease with wich it can be hacked, I wouldn't worry about it. I think that the rules are vague in terms of what is purchased and how many copies of legit software you can run on multiple devices.

I assume every program a runner has is unregistered, and I don't worry about how many times he uses the same program. For drones though, the pilot program is specific to the drone.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personally, I'm fine with Unwired 125 I don't see how a technomancer can emulate software that can't possibly exist, so adding more rules to prevent what's already impossible seems like an over-complication to me.

Technomancers Already thread software that does not exist. We place a limit on the Tactical Network Software, justy like there is a Limit to how Technomancers can obtain a CF for an Active Soft. It goes to 4, no higher, in this case, because a tactical Software package does not exceed 4. In the end, it is just to constrain those that come up with the idea that they can Thread any Software to insane levels. We also enforce this with Sensor Software (though to Rating 6) as well.

The reasoning is because these software "Packages" are not normal packages that are commonly learned as CF's (Much like learning a Smartlink or Simrig CF). Since there are already rules for using Activesofts in such a manner, we just apply those rules to Tacsofts (Max Rating of 4) and Sensor Softs (Maximum Rating of 6). Active Softs already have a maximum rating of 4 by the Rules.

No worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

are you saying a TM can't do that?

By my reading of the rules he can't. What you do at your own table is, as always, not something I care about.

SR4A 240

Technomancers have the ability to improvise Complex Forms that they do not know on the fly, or increase the rating of a complex form they do know.

My understanding of this means that the end result of threading is the setting of a CF rating.

Above that on the same page

Complex forms have ratings just as programs do

So there is a link between the CF rating (even after being threaded) and the program rating.

On the previous page (239).

For each program there is an equivalent complex form, with the exception of Biofeedback Filter, which is part of the living persona.

As I read this last sentence, unless you houserule the existence of CFs for which there is no software, then CFs are limited to existing software and whatever the possible ratings of that software are. If, pre-war, you had software ratings in your game higher than that obtainable by players, I see no reason why technomancers couldn't thread it, but if software ratings were limited to that available to the players, that limitation also applied to technomancers.

As always, feel free to interpret differently, or, if you simply don't like it, declare it fluff.

[Miri]

Well, if you are trying to keep it from getting silly thats fine. I'm just of the opinion that if the players are willing to put in the effort to make a Rating 5+ Tacnet work to its full extent then I am willing to allow them the benefits of that work.

[DamienKnight]

Autosofts are Software like any other, so come with Copy Protection out of the box. Removing that is a trivial matter of taking some time for any hacker worth his salt. Copying them to any and all drones they're needed on is a done deal after that. Note potential issues with Registration as well.
Alternatively, pirated softs are cheap, come without Copy Protection and Registration, but degrade.

This is if your table incorporates Unwired Software rules. Otherwise, just the first point holds.

Drones have different sensors, different sensor locations, different weights and shapes, and differing modes of movement. In my game I do not allow most Autosofts to work on every drone. You buy an autosoft specific to a drone, then can copy it all you want, but its only good on other drones of the same or very similar model.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

By my reading of the rules he can't. What you do at your own table is, as always, not something I care about.

Except that it is explicit in the book that a TM can thread a CF to twice his Resonance. This is from the book where Programs did not exceed Rating 6, as well. The end result is that a Technomancer can conceivably have a CF that he can thread up to 12+, should he care to risk the drain.

My understanding of this means that the end result of threading is the setting of a CF rating.
Above that on the same page. So there is a link between the CF rating (even after being threaded) and the program rating.

Yes, and No. A CF acts like a Program, but can have ratings equal to twice the resonance of the TM (Through Threading). You Threading allows you to exceed the rating fo the CF you have, or provide you a CF you do not have.

Emulation allows you to mimic a program (Specifically for Biowires and ActgiveSofts) such that you can then save it as a CF. But this is a Skill, not a "True" program CF, and thus cannot be further enhanced by Threading.

Purchasing such things as a Smartlink and Simrig allow you to emulate Hardware as well, and are bought as a CF, but these CF's cannot be further Threaded either, because there is no effect for having a Simrig or Smartlink running at a "Higher" capacity. They only do one thing.

As I read this last sentence, unless you houserule the existence of CFs for which there is no software, then CFs are limited to existing software and whatever the possible ratings of that software are. If, pre-war, you had software ratings in your game higher than that obtainable by players, I see no reason why technomancers couldn't thread it, but if software ratings were limited to that available to the players, that limitation also applied to technomancers.

As always, feel free to interpret differently, or, if you simply don't like it, declare it fluff.

There are already concrete rules for things that have no "Software", per se. The Smartlink and Simrig (and other related Hardware that the GM authorizes) are examples of such things.

CF's allow the explicit bypassing of the Program Ratings. That is exactly what Threading is designed to do. Of Course, as you say, you are always, feel free to interpret differently, or, if you simply don't like it, declare it fluff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

Threading allows you to exceed the rating fo the CF you have

I realize you believe that, but I can't find that anywhere. All you're showing me is an additional threading cap limited to twice the Resonance. Since it's "explicit" would it be too difficult to find the rule (book and page) stating that. Failing that, anything that documents the intent of the designers (as you claim) would help.

[Miri]

I realize you believe that, but I can't find that anywhere. All you're showing me is an additional threading cap limited to twice the Resonance. Since it's "explicit" would it be too difficult to find the rule (book and page) stating that. Failing that, anything that documents the intent of the designers (as you claim) would help.

Pg 243 SR4A under the Fading section the example listed has the character threading a Complex form over her Resonance rating but under twice the Resonance rating.

"Netcat threaded a complex form, scoring 4 hits and raising it from 4 to 8. Netcat's Resonance is 5, so she faces Fading equal to 4P. blablabla fading test stuff"

Is that what you are looking for?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I realize you believe that, but I can't find that anywhere. All you're showing me is an additional threading cap limited to twice the Resonance. Since it's "explicit" would it be too difficult to find the rule (book and page) stating that. Failing that, anything that documents the intent of the designers (as you claim) would help.

SR4A, Page 240, and I quote...

Technomancers have the ability to improvise Complex Forms that they do not know on the fly, or increase the rating of a complex form they do know. This process is known as threading. To thread a complex form, the technomancer makes a Software + Resonance Test. Each
hit scored on the test can be used to increase the rating of a complex form by one; if the complex form is created from scratch, start at Rating 0. The technomancer can choose to discard some of the hits he scores. No threaded complex form can have a rating greater than twice the technomancer’s Resonance,

Important part you are looking for is bolded and italicized. Pretty evident to me; what do you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[suoq]

Deleted. It's just not worth it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It would help if I knew what CF she was threading and if it was a CF whose software was limited to a specific level the way Tacsoft is. I've always been under the impression that greater than rating 6 software is run on Nexi (though I doubt I can find the rule easily), so it doesn't surprise me if. for example, Netcat is threading Exploit at 8, even if such software was not priced for players.

---------------

I wonder sometimes, if it's acceptable to the admin to repeat myself if people are replying to me without having read or understood what I said.

Again, I see where twice the resonance is a cap. I do NOT see where it is the only cap and the technomancer is allowed to thread software that couldn't (for example), be written.

Irrelevant, though. A Technomancer could have a CF at Rating 10 (assuming Resonance 10) and could then thread that software to Rating 20, even though you cannot get Software at Ratings above 10 (They are currently Limited to Rating 10).

AS for Other things with limited ratings. I have already agreed that you cannot thread such things above their rating. ActiveSofts are the biggest, easily referenced example for this. You cannot get a Skill CF above a Rating of 4, Period. Regardless that the Skill itself can go to a Skill Rating of 7 (10 as an Adept) in Theory. I apply this to TacSofts (Max of Rating 4, because of their Limit) and Sensor Softs (Max of Rating 6, because of their Limit).

I do understand what you are saying in principle, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The ability to even Create a Tacsoft CF is up to the GM to start with. If he allows a Technomancer to exceed the hard capped limits for such variant CF's, then he has no one to blame but himself when the game goes off track because of it.

[Miri]

If he allows a Technomancer to exceed the hard capped limits for such variant CF's, then he has no one to blame but himself when the game goes off track because of it.

*slicks back his mowhawk and chomps on his cigar*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*slicks back his mowhawk and chomps on his cigar*

Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mardrax]

Drones have different sensors, different sensor locations, different weights and shapes, and differing modes of movement. In my game I do not allow most Autosofts to work on every drone. You buy an autosoft specific to a drone, then can copy it all you want, but its only good on other drones of the same or very similar model.

Forgive me if I don't get the reasoning behind that.
The way I see it, the Pilot is already unique to the vehicle or drone. It's there to interpret the general purpose Autosoft programs, and make them work for the drone. Doubling up on system-exclusiveness would make for the business model Apple would love to be able to stick to, if it weren't for the law working against them.

*shrug* To each his own though. ^_^

[HunterHerne]

It depends on the autosoft. In my games, a Maneuver autosoft is specific to each type of vehicle (Steel Lynx, Zuggmaschine, Jackrabbit), but even according to SR4A 246, the autosoft for a Steel Lynx (ground Vehicle) would definitely not work in a Stormcloud (LTA Blimp).

But, if you were loading up and Electronic Warfare autosoft, I would allow it to work, since it would provide "knowledge" of how to use a wide range of devices effectively.

[Yerameyahu]

They are vehicle-specific in the book, but IIRC there are suggested optional rules for the GM to allow mis-match installations with pretty significant penalties.

[DMiller]

Sorry to add to the derailment of the thread about the whole software rating issue but I think someone isn’t doing their research. The maximum rating program available is solely based on the skill of the programmer, tools available and amount of time that can be spent writing. Sure the books only list programs up to rating 6 (or 10 with War!) but those are only what are commercially available. By my calculations A Skill 6, Logic 6, Programming Suite 5 programmer (that’s 17 dice +2 for specialization for 19 dice) could write any of the following (using average dice rolls):
Rating 19 Agent/IC/Pilot
Rating 28 Autosoft/Firewall/Hacking Program/System
Rating 57 Common Use Program

That’s a single dedicated programmer and a lot of time. Sure you probably won’t be able to find a system that can actually run a rating 57 edit program, but there is really nothing stopping you from writing it.

So a TM having a CF of 20 is well within bounds of available within game.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not true. There are external rules about ratings above 6, and above 10, no matter your skill. This is because we're sane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's nothing wrong with a system having closed boundaries, because it knows the rules don't function outside those bounds.

Additionally, there are some interpretations requiring that the machine you write a program on actually be able to run it (in some views, magically bypassed by using a nexus).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry to add to the derailment of the thread about the whole software rating issue but I think someone isn’t doing their research. The maximum rating program available is solely based on the skill of the programmer, tools available and amount of time that can be spent writing. Sure the books only list programs up to rating 6 (or 10 with War!) but those are only what are commercially available. By my calculations A Skill 6, Logic 6, Programming Suite 5 programmer (that’s 17 dice +2 for specialization for 19 dice) could write any of the following (using average dice rolls):
Rating 19 Agent/IC/Pilot
Rating 28 Autosoft/Firewall/Hacking Program/System
Rating 57 Common Use Program

That’s a single dedicated programmer and a lot of time. Sure you probably won’t be able to find a system that can actually run a rating 57 edit program, but there is really nothing stopping you from writing it.

So a TM having a CF of 20 is well within bounds of available within game.

Using those numbers, you could eventually write a Rating 100 Program of any variety. The fact that it is entirely ludicrous indicates that it should never be allowed in a million years. That said, a Technomancer can STILL Thread his rating 10 CF to 20, even if the Programs were hard capped at 10. It is Just the way that the rules are written.

[DMiller]

Using those numbers, you could eventually write a Rating 100 Program of any variety. The fact that it is entirely ludicrous indicates that it should never be allowed in a million years. That said, a Technomancer can STILL Thread his rating 10 CF to 20, even if the Programs were hard capped at 10. It is Just the way that the rules are written.

I agree the CF of 10 to 20 is fully allowed. I was just trying to point out that the game isn't limited to rating 6 programs as has been claimed.

On a side note (with a depleting dice pool) a rating 100 program would (on average) require a 25 dice pool. That would be very hard to get I'm sure.

-D

[Neraph]

The fact that it is entirely ludicrous indicates that it should never be allowed in a million years.

Unless they write the code for a million years. Then they deserve it.