Simulating High Altitude Drone Strikes, Death from above Options

[AppliedCheese]

So, every now and again the headlines come back on about drone strikes in Pakistan. Which got me to thinking:

We have precision strike capable drone aircraft in present day, no 6th world involved. They are relatively cheap according to wiki: $4.5M for a predator. They can can hang on station for 30+ hours. They fly high enough and far enough away to be unspottable by the naked eye and unheard. They already have cameras capable of resolution that allow the decision makers to see if people are carrying guns (though not too much detail, or else the misdrops on a border patrol wouldn't have happened). They carry missiles that can engage from a dozen kilometers or more , and some models carry GPS directed bombs. In short, a pretty ideal and comparatively cheap weapon for conducting precision strikes against small groups of terrorists or other people who don't have an integrated air force and air defense network.

People, coincidentally, a lot like shadowrunners. I'm thinking this would be a valuable tool in the mega's arsenal, for either those times when they've said "screw collateral damage" or can lure the runners away from where a strike would have many negative consequences. Depending on the level of precision (according to wiki, current models can put a hellfire through a window if given the conditions, and will reliably hit vehicles), there are probably some urban areas acceptable to. Will anyone ask too many questions if there's an explosion in the deep barrens?

Of course, not so much for the runners, because someone is going to wonder what the drone is doing in their airspace, and it needs a satellite band for long range ops...

So, for a lot of these double crosses, deliberate team take outs, basically those times when you need runners dead, and would usually send an HTR, or try to have an on site ambush in the woods or what not...send a few missiles and bombs form the impunity of 50,000 feet. Even if they cost 15-30k nuyen a piece, getting even one HTR guy thwacked costs a lot more.

So, how do you simulate this? I think the reaosnable design goal should be 50-75% of the team on site killed, with follow on strikes finishing the survivors.

[LurkerOutThere]

Personally i don't, it's a game, not real life. If you can't make that concession then all else is for naught.

As a further corollary, military drone command and control is pretty much unhackable, that's not nearly the case in shadowun, so having said drones in universe would risk them falling into enemy hands.

However for everything else there is the Ares Hemdahl(sp?) from arsenal. Launch them in packs of four.

[Elfenlied]

Thor Shots. Cheap (compared to the cost of a military drone nowadays, and assuming you already have an armed satellite), unhackable, and no amount of soak dice will get you out alive. Relatively precise if you use Loki missiles too.

[UmaroVI]

This seems like a great deal of thought and effort to put into a way of saying "rocks fall, everyone dies."

[Elfenlied]

This seems like a great deal of thought and effort to put into a way of saying "rocks fall, everyone dies."

Given the description of Thor shots (Tungsten rods with attached space waste), that's actually not too far off.

[Kirk]

Take a tower, give it camo and sig mask 3, take it high - 3 to 5 km works, lower if you need better ground observation, higher to go above the jet-stream. Give it a set of heimdalls. Heimdalls can do 1 km per second, or 3000 meters per combat turn, for six combat turns. Even from above the jetstream this missile only takes three combat turns to get from launch platform to ground.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Take a tower, give it camo and sig mask 3, take it high - 3 to 5 km works, lower if you need better ground observation, higher to go above the jet-stream. Give it a set of heimdalls. Heimdalls can do 1 km per second, or 3000 meters per combat turn, for six combat turns. Even from above the jetstream this missile only takes three combat turns to get from launch platform to ground.

Yep... I use this very tactic on occasion. I also have a few Predator Drones with Missiles for really pesky targets.

[Elfenlied]

Personally, I prefer a cheaper approach. Even though my Rigger makes enough money to afford a luxury lifestyle (Ok, I'll admit, it's actually spoofed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), I still wince on the inside every time I fire one of those Heimdahl rockets. At 1.5k a piece, they're just a tad too expensive for comfort.

My usual means of assassination for low/mid level security areas is a Ford-LEBD with Camocoating (disguised as a police drone), and mounted with a Parashield rifle. It can snipe pesky targets reliably, and with the right selection of chemicals, is sufficiently lethal. They need not be toxins; a dose of K-10 administered to a target in broad daylight makes them go bananas, and local security forces will assist in bringing the target down.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personally, I prefer a cheaper approach. Even though my Rigger makes enough money to afford a luxury lifestyle (Ok, I'll admit, it's actually spoofed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ), I still wince on the inside every time I fire one of those Heimdahl rockets. At 1.5k a piece, they're just a tad too expensive for comfort.

My usual means of assassination for low/mid level security areas is a Ford-LEBD with Camocoating (disguised as a police drone), and mounted with a Parashield rifle. It can snipe pesky targets reliably, and with the right selection of chemicals, is sufficiently lethal. They need not be toxins; a dose of K-10 administered to a target in broad daylight makes them go bananas, and local security forces will assist in bringing the target down.

This works too. I use the drones you mentioned above to protect my Doss. The character lives in the blimp filled skies of Honk Kong, in a Yacht-Style Blimp (Posted on the forums somewwhere). The Heimdalls and Missiles are for engaging aerial targets mostly.

For people. I generally use a Sniper Rifle. I prefer the HK-PSG1 personally. Though I have been re-considering a Barrett again after re-reading Shadowplay.

[Ascalaphus]

Megas aren't usually in the business of hunting down runners... they tend to be in the business of hiring runners against their rivals. Semi-randomly trying to exterminate shadowrunners just reduces the available pool of people you could use.

As an area-defense method, a well-camouflaged drone hovering a few KM above a corporate base - that works. If a runner team tries to escape with something, chuck missiles at it.

On the other hand, in practical gaming terms, this has the same problem as snipers: PCs die by what amounts to GM fiat. Is that really what you want?

A way to make it work is to have legwork reveal the existence of the drone, so it has to be part of the players' planning process; "how do we get away from the drone afterwards?"

But keeping it as a surprise, and then taking a shot at a character that can't dodge (due to being surprised) is equivalent to arbitrary killing of PCs.

[Elfenlied]

This works too. I use the drones you mentioned above to protect my Doss. The character lives in the blimp filled skies of Honk Kong, in a Yacht-Style Blimp (Posted on the forums somewwhere). The Heimdalls and Missiles are for engaging aerial targets mostly.

For people. I generally use a Sniper Rifle. I prefer the HK-PSG1 personally. Though I have been re-considering a Barrett again after re-reading Shadowplay.

You mean that luxuriously customized one you posted some time ago? I want one of those too^^

Although I shouldn't really be complaining. In one of our recent runs, our team captured a smuggler's Skytrain, and from the looks of things, we probably get to keep it. I haven't considered living in it though. Although, since our characters live in LA, I might just redecorate it after laying low for a while.

Most of my "sniper" kills ingame were actually done with a Ruger 100 Sports Rifle. It's a lot easier to acquire and dispose of, and it's legal to own. Range and damage are also acceptable.

[suoq]

a dose of K-10 administered to a target in broad daylight makes them go bananas, and local security forces will assist in bringing the target down.

What do you use for a follow-up shot to kick off the k-10? My plan was a sports rifle, K-10/DMSO capsule rounds, and what I really wanted was to follow up with some white phosphorus capsule rounds to bring on the pain with (so even if there's a delay in the K-10 going active, there's still that lovely burning sensation). Alas, that involves talking the GM into letting me have white phosphorus rounds for a sports rifle. Yes, it isn't subtle, but I'm not looking for subtle in this particular case. This is just a freebee job I'll be doing without my team once the mission is over.

(Assumption is that it takes a second, pain-inducing, shot to set off the K-10 and that a good choice was the Ruger 100 with additional clip, smartlink, and camera-mod Vision Magnification. Without that second shot being needed, any sports rifle seems like it would do.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You mean that luxuriously customized one you posted some time ago? I want one of those too^^

Although I shouldn't really be complaining. In one of our recent runs, our team captured a smuggler's Skytrain, and from the looks of things, we probably get to keep it. I haven't considered living in it though. Although, since our characters live in LA, I might just redecorate it after laying low for a while.

Most of my "sniper" kills ingame were actually done with a Ruger 100 Sports Rifle. It's a lot easier to acquire and dispose of, and it's legal to own. Range and damage are also acceptable.

Indeed, that is the one.

Our team is sporting some pretty impressive vehicles now. But, we have been playing these characters for a while as well (300+ Karma each). We have a Fed-Boeing Commuter, a couple of Boats (Blomm and Voss Spitzenreiters), several Sports cars, Motorcycles, Some Undersea Sleds, and a few others I am probably forgetting. The Blimp was the latest in Lifestyles that the character is using, courtesy of the Zero Zone that we survived. Not sure how long it will last, but it is nice. Been a fun ride.

Yeah. Hunting rifles are good and easy. I have only used my Sniper Rifle twice in several gaming years of play. And in those situations, it worked just as well as a Barrett would have. SO, in the end, I stick with my HK, though I do like the descriptives of the Barrett (in use) in Shadowplay. They are very entertaining.

[Elfenlied]

What do you use for a follow-up shot to kick off the k-10? My plan was a sports rifle, K-10/DMSO capsule rounds, and what I really wanted was to follow up with some white phosphorus capsule rounds to bring on the pain with (so even if there's a delay in the K-10 going active, there's still that lovely burning sensation). Alas, that involves talking the GM into letting me have white phosphorus rounds for a sports rifle. Yes, it isn't subtle, but I'm not looking for subtle in this particular case. This is just a freebee job I'll be doing without my team once the mission is over.

(Assumption is that it takes a second, pain-inducing, shot to set off the K-10 and that a good choice was the Ruger 100 with additional clip, smartlink, and camera-mod Vision Magnification. Without that second shot being needed, any sports rifle seems like it would do.)

You can always speedball some delayed poison with it. Nothing lethal; just some basic, cheap poison that isn't instant.

[UmaroVI]

You can assassinate people with a sports rifle... if you're a wuss (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Pros assassinate people with vehicle-mounted miniguns from 2 kilometers away. Or Gauss Rifles if your target has a ton of hardened armor.

[suoq]

Sometimes the goal isn't killing someone. Somethings killing someone is just a happy side effect.

[Elfenlied]

If I prepare my rifle rounds as vessels, and possess them with a spirit with elemental aura, I can assassinate almost anything with it.

That said, Miniguns and Gauss rifles are hard to obtain, and it sucks hard if you have to dispose of them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can assassinate people with a sports rifle... if you're a wuss (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Pros assassinate people with vehicle-mounted miniguns from 2 kilometers away. Or Gauss Rifles if your target has a ton of hardened armor.

I prefer the Remote Commanded Russian KPV in the back of a Minivan, personally. Awesome and cool.

[CanRay]

Nazi Super-Science Laughs At Your Drones Airdrops. They've Been Using Pinto Station Wagons!

[onlyghostdancesw...]

See as a PC, I've done just about all of these. The personal favorites though are the GTS tower with heimdalls and the nimrod with heimdals and Internal Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser. That 10km silent killing thing is just sexy for who dunnits. Specially given that I was playing a techno at the time and spoofed a couple enemy corp drones to hover close in and look guilty.

[AppliedCheese]

Its not intended to hunt down random runners. Its intended for killing very specific runners that someone has decided need to die.

For example, if you penetrated an MCT zero-zone. Or you decide to re-enact Karl Kombatmage at the next Brackhaven rally, and KE has decided its worth killing you for the public relations aspect. In general, doing things that break the law of "its not worth it to find and kill these guys." Because once it is worth it to kill them, you might as well do it cheap and in the way that is least likely to have them survive.

That being said, this would be a very deliberate option on the behalf of the owning corp. Someone has to spend the effort investigating the runners, and pitching it to the corporate hierarchy as worth the risk (Power Point 2072: Cost Benefit of Drone Strike Verus Karl Kombatmage). Companies won't strike outside of their territorilaity without previous agreements, which are unlikely. And while you can deny a firewatch team, it doesn't take a whole lot of analysis to determine that the 4x heimdalls that just slammed into that condo came from Ares airspace.

Companies won't strike where the collateral damage will outweigh the benefit. If your hauling a 10M nuyen prototype or the senior VP of marketing out with you, chances are Heimdall Rain isn't coming. Hell, while your on corp property, someone has to make the call if its worth hitting the accounting department with a missile just to preserve some pay data that will be obsolete in a week anyow...

As an urban defensive weapon, high altitude drones would actually be a poor choice due to all the restrictions. They'd only be useful at facilities with enough standoff from non-territorial areas and the corps own property to avoid excessive collateral. Plus, you know, the second you drop into a building the drone in question no longer has you identified unless there's on the ground help.

In contrast, as a specifically developed offensive engagement option, they seem like fair play. After all, the interested party has to clear quite a few hurdles, and effectively either pull the shadowrunners into an acceptable kill zone OR the shadowrunners have to have been sufficiently ridiculous enough to warrant a strike in what would usually be no-strike areas. Fiscally it makes sense though - if the runners are dumb enough to epxose themselves to the option, why wouldn't you just expend 15k in missiles rather than pay twice that for another runner team?

In short, it isn't "rocks fall, everyone dies." Its "be advised, companies have large nets of rocks that can only be released under reasonably specific conditions and in certain places - if you insist on standing under the net of rocks, and then taunting the man who releases the net, yes, they will crush you."

[CanRay]

Or you can drop a bug on them.

...

I couldn't find a link to the scene, so here's Henry Rollins showing why he's still on top!

[Neurosis]

So, how do you simulate this? I think the reaosnable design goal should be 50-75% of the team on site killed, with follow on strikes finishing the survivors.

If you just want to FREAKING KILL YOUR PLAYERS, the gear chapter of War! provides an ample array of adequate options. A few more long range missiles appear in (I believe) This Old Drone. Of course, you could also simply choose an arbitrarily high DV, AP, and Blast value.

[Ascalaphus]

it isn't "rocks fall, everyone dies." Its "be advised, companies have large nets of rocks that can only be released under reasonably specific conditions and in certain places - if you insist on standing under the net of rocks, and then taunting the man who releases the net, yes, they will crush you."

So, if you as a GM decide that the PCs have made someone angry enough, the PCs die. Nothing they can really do about it at that point.

Sounds like everyone will be enjoying it.




Please understand: from IC standpoint, it's very reasonable what you propose. You can certainly assassinate people (PCs) that way. Just like sniping; it's obviously doable. The rules aren't a problem, it's realistic, all that's fine.

But when is it ever fun OOC?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See as a PC, I've done just about all of these. The personal favorites though are the GTS tower with heimdalls and the nimrod with heimdals and Internal Ares Firelance Vehicle Laser. That 10km silent killing thing is just sexy for who dunnits. Specially given that I was playing a techno at the time and spoofed a couple enemy corp drones to hover close in and look guilty.

Yep, and Awesome... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)