[X] My Assistant

[CrystalBlue]

I've been playing this edition for 4 years now and still, for the life of me, I don't know how the Matrix really works. How about I give you my interpertation of the rules and someone fills in the blanks? Or maybe points me to a quick guide? I have the Matrix Crib Sheet, but this only serves to tell me what is rolled when, it doesn't tell me how to navigate the place or how to build a system.

So, I want to have an apartment building for my runners to go into. Don't worry about why, I just want them in this building. I say that the security is kind of tight. They have pass-key entry into the building on all sides and have the doors watched by cameras. I also have camera arrays on the inside of the building as well to watch hallways. There's also a database with information on the residence, payment and rent information, phone numbers, ect.

This isn't a small-time rental slum, so the security should be around A level on the node. I'm saying that the system is a rating 6 with a signal of 3 outside of the building. Firewall would be 5 and Response would be 6 (Please tell me if these numbers don't make sense for the kind of thing I have going).

Your friendly local hacker needs to find some personal information on a particular subject that happens to rent at this apartment. He sits in a local coffee shop about a block away from the place and goes in to probe the target. He knows he'll need at least security access to the apartment complex and he'll need it for a few days, so he takes the long route and probes for holes. He would roll his Hacking + Exploit program for each hour he's probing and he needs an extended test of System + Firewall + Security Access (14) to break in and register an account on the system's computer. After about 6 hours, he gets the hits he needs and is able to push his way in. On the login, the system makes an Analyze + Firewall (11, assuming the program ratings are the same as the system's rating) vs the hacker's running Stealth program (5). Assume the system fails and the person logs in.

At this point, the hacker is logged into the node, I assume, and can see everything the node facilitates. He'll see a bank of TV screens for the cameras, switches that control the MagLocks in the building, and a filing cabinet that holds all of the records that he needs. Say he wants to put a tap into the cameras in the building and route the info to his home mainframe for analysis. He also wants to make a quick search in the system's file records for the name that he's looking for and the info on them.

What types of checks are each of these, how many checks do they needs, what are the successes needed, how would the system respond, ect. This is where I get lost, obviously. Also, are each of the cameras just a device subscribed to the main node? The same with the Database and MagLocks?

[Synner667]

Why not grab a copy of Eclipse Phase, which you can download for FREE, and see how they do it.

The reason I mention it, is that several of the people who put EP together are ex-Catalysts, who saw the issues relating to Shadowrun hacking and decided to do something different when they put together Eclipse Phase.

Even if it's not a direct conversion [one uses dice pools, the other uses d%], the ideas and methods should be transferrable.

[BishopMcQ]

So, I want to have an apartment building for my runners to go into. Don't worry about why, I just want them in this building. I say that the security is kind of tight. They have pass-key entry into the building on all sides and have the doors watched by cameras. I also have camera arrays on the inside of the building as well to watch hallways. There's also a database with information on the residence, payment and rent information, phone numbers, ect.

It sounds like you have a good feel for how you want it to be laid out. Simply decide if you want all of these to be controlled from one area/node like the master control room described later, or if you want each section to be subdivided--each area/node handles a group of systems. Each has its own benefits and drawbacks, so it goes to the level of staffing/security at the facility.

This isn't a small-time rental slum, so the security should be around A level on the node. I'm saying that the system is a rating 6 with a signal of 3 outside of the building. Firewall would be 5 and Response would be 6 (Please tell me if these numbers don't make sense for the kind of thing I have going).

Adjust the numbers to be the appropriate challenge for your players. That said 3-4 is your average terminal. 4-5 is security level, 5-6 is high end corporate/military security (per SR4A, WAR! changed these somewhat). 6 is higher than I would use for an apartment building unless there is something jinky about it. Remember the Hacker will need extra successes beyond the rating of the System to gain Security or Admin access. You can use the access levels as further security inside the node rather than raising the system level on the outside. Likewise tasking an agent to Analyze every new user who logs in can raise security without increasing the Rating.

Your friendly local hacker needs to find some personal information on a particular subject that happens to rent at this apartment. He sits in a local coffee shop about a block away from the place and goes in to probe the target. He knows he'll need at least security access to the apartment complex and he'll need it for a few days, so he takes the long route and probes for holes. He would roll his Hacking + Exploit program for each hour he's probing and he needs an extended test of System + Firewall + Security Access (14) to break in and register an account on the system's computer. After about 6 hours, he gets the hits he needs and is able to push his way in. On the login, the system makes an Analyze + Firewall (11, assuming the program ratings are the same as the system's rating) vs the hacker's running Stealth program (5). Assume the system fails and the person logs in.

At this point, the hacker is logged into the node, I assume, and can see everything the node facilitates. He'll see a bank of TV screens for the cameras, switches that control the MagLocks in the building, and a filing cabinet that holds all of the records that he needs. Say he wants to put a tap into the cameras in the building and route the info to his home mainframe for analysis. He also wants to make a quick search in the system's file records for the name that he's looking for and the info on them.

Sounds fine.

What types of checks are each of these, how many checks do they needs, what are the successes needed, how would the system respond, ect. This is where I get lost, obviously. Also, are each of the cameras just a device subscribed to the main node? The same with the Database and MagLocks?

If you are searching, use Data Search + Browse. Set the threshold to 1-4 depending on how specific they need to be.

To examine something, Computer + Analyze.

Writing a subscript to copy the feed continuously would be Hacking + Command, or Computer + Command depending on if their user level has access. Downloading old data is just a download action, no die roll.

The Cameras/Database/Locks could each be slaved, or they could be separate nodes. It depends on how the system is set up. Likely, the database would be a separate node because the security guards don't need access to the office files and the wageslaves don't need to know if the door on the third floor just opened.

The level of detail that you delve into on the hacking is purely up to the table. Often times for small hacks, I just use one or two die rolls, and save the in depth hack for when they are in the thick of it. Draw out a small diagram in the corner of your notes with numbers for the ratings and you will be good to go.

For a walkthrough on hacking, check out the Runner's Toolkit. Aaron Pavao also did a write up based on the Game, Set, Match fiction from the core book.

[hermit]

Needing easy-to-understand Matrix rules

Play SR 1.

[Neurosis]

LOL.

[Seerow]

I can't really help out but I have a similar question: Does someone have a "Hacking and Rigging for idiots" style guide around somewhere? Not houserules, just a guide that organizes what Players and GMs want/need to know to play in a well formatted guide.

[Sengir]

I can't really help out but I have a similar question: Does someone have a "Hacking and Rigging for idiots" style guide around somewhere? Not houserules, just a guide that organizes what Players and GMs want/need to know to play in a well formatted guide.

http://www.mediafire.com/?2ymnmf2zymt

[Bodak]

I've been playing this edition for 4 years now and still, for the life of me, I don't know how the Matrix really works. How about I give you my interpertation of the rules and someone fills in the blanks? Or maybe points me to a quick guide?

Did you already read Synner's The Idiot's Guide To The Matrix Thread for 3rd Ed and Dashifen's Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0 for 4th Ed? Quite a few questions and answers there (if you can filter out the argument about otaku / technomancers).

[LurkerOutThere]

The thing is, no system in SR will stand up to a hacker if the hacker has unlimited time. The easiest way I've found to make the time factor less of an issue is put a security sheath around most of my nodes worth protecting. That is a mid rating node that serves as the choke point to any nodes worth hacking and has some IC hanging out performing periodic analyze. That at least forces hackers to sweat a bit as their doing their 10 hour extended hack marathons.

In your apartment scenario this outer node can double as the complexes matrix access point and place to post community events and stuff.

Another thing I do for apartment complexes is require admin access to actually open the apartment doors.

[Bigity]

Node slaving is really a continuation of the old SR2/SR3 chokepoint design anyway, with the exception of being able to spoof past it I guess.

It seems like most every system would do that by default, but maybe I'm not thinking that through enough.

The admin level requirement for opening doors is spot on, IMO (or at least security level).

[ravensmuse]

I forgot when I started reading it, but Ryu's Guide To the Matrix has been my handy dandy reference guide for quite some time. He should finish it!

[LurkerOutThere]

Node slaving is really a continuation of the old SR2/SR3 chokepoint design anyway, with the exception of being able to spoof past it I guess.

It seems like most every system would do that by default, but maybe I'm not thinking that through enough.

The admin level requirement for opening doors is spot on, IMO (or at least security level).

Slaving is not the same as chokepoint, in a chokepoint you have to bypass both nodes starting with the outer one, slaving is actually the exact opposite of that, once you have one you have them all, further no matter what one you access your forwarded to the other.

Security level shouldn't cut it for accessing individual apartments, your security guards will have security level access, how many complex residents want Joe Bob the minimum wage security guard having unrestricted access to their apartment, I'd wager not many.

[Seerow]

So question: If a runner wanted to set up a secure node for himself, what would be the best way to go about that?


Judging from the guides posted here (thanks for those by the way!), Analyze+Firewall put up high is the best place to start. Makes it nearly impossible for someone to hack in undetected. But what other things would be helpful? If you get a high rating agent, can it use any program on your commlink, or do you need to get separate programs for it to use? Do you have to set up a defense like this for all of your nodes (for example, a rigger's drones), or can you link them to a centralized defense (ie slaving the drones to your commlink)? Does this also hold true for helping defend your team's gear?

[LurkerOutThere]

Agents will need their own copy of programs.

Generally speaking slaving is a very good plan for defense on a budget plus ease of administration. A rigger will almost always want to slave his drones for example.

Likewise getting the team to slave up to the hacker is also a good plan so long as they trust the hacker.

Mostly buildings and other infrastructure that have spent hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars riding on them will want to spring for compartmentalized security and defense in depth.

[Seerow]

Agents will need their own copy of programs.

Man that gets expensive -fast-. Guess it's time to start pirating.

Generally speaking slaving is a very good plan for defense on a budget plus ease of administration. A rigger will almost always want to slave his drones for example.

Okay, so there's no obvious downsides that I'm missing? (Except if your commlink gets hacked everything is suddenly compromised)

[LurkerOutThere]

That's the one, single point of defense, single point of failure.

[CrystalBlue]

Alright. So how does response work in 4E for defense of a system then? I get how the hacker can get in, what he can do when he's in, and what the system rolls to detect the hacker. Let's say that they get in, but they're found by the system. Normally, the system doesn't go into massive alert right away.

I remember the 3E rules where each main system had a Security Sheaf that let you know what IC were turned on when, when the system called for a security hacker, when the system went to passive and active alert, and when it shut itself down. I liked that idea, so do I just try to replicate that for my security?

The hacker doesn't have a high enough stealth rating, so they're found out and the system launches an IC that has Analyze and Trace on it. It would first try Analyzing the hacker's icon and then run a trace if they think it's suspicious. How does a hacker defend against this?

Also, how does the Spoof program work? I know how the Exploit program works for breaking into a system, but Spoof used to be used to simply squeeze your way in passed a node you didn't want to bother cracking, or one you didn't have the time/skill to really force open.

One more thing, if I have the IC successfully Analyze, while it's doing the trace, the system can launch other IC if it thinks it needs it. In doing that, they can only launch a number of programs equal to double their System rating. But this also goes with all of the devices that the system has subscribed to it. Using the security sheath mentioned above, is it possible for IC from other layers of the system to cross over? Say the outer system controls some basic security, but the runner gets passed that and into the core system. Can the core system call in the IC from the outer layer to check in on the runner, or does it have to use it's own IC and launch it itself?

Thanks, by the way, for the answers so far.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Man that gets expensive -fast-. Guess it's time to start pirating.

Naah, you can always load your own programs into the Agents payload. In fact, that is how most hackers would do it. The issue is that each program in the agent's package counts as an active program on your program tally unless you design the agents package as a Suite, at which point it acts as a single program for slot purposes, but all its programs are suscepible as a single entity to counter-programs.

[Bigity]

Slaving is not the same as chokepoint, in a chokepoint you have to bypass both nodes starting with the outer one, slaving is actually the exact opposite of that, once you have one you have them all, further no matter what one you access your forwarded to the other.

Security level shouldn't cut it for accessing individual apartments, your security guards will have security level access, how many complex residents want Joe Bob the minimum wage security guard having unrestricted access to their apartment, I'd wager not many.

I didn't say it was the same, I said it was the SR4 continuation of chokepoints.

Good point about the security access, but I bet the head security guard would have those rights, or the authority to order a spider or someone to do it.

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm too tired to directly quote rules, but I will do my best to do so without leaving you astray, some of the problem with the 4E matrix system is they made it very abstract which can be the systems greatest strangth and weakness.

Alright. So how does response work in 4E for defense of a system then? I get how the hacker can get in, what he can do when he's in, and what the system rolls to detect the hacker. Let's say that they get in, but they're found by the system. Normally, the system doesn't go into massive alert right away.

The system has a specific alert against the hacker, there is no specialized passive or active alert. The biggest thing that being on alert affects is the hacker will loose any special security access they might have gotten and the system gets +4 on all rolsl to detect them. It will also carry out whatever it's programed to do in case of alert, scramble a security hacker (who effectively gets to log into the node "for free"), launching IC, shutting down, playing show tunes, you name it.

I remember the 3E rules where each main system had a Security Sheaf that let you know what IC were turned on when, when the system called for a security hacker, when the system went to passive and active alert, and when it shut itself down. I liked that idea, so do I just try to replicate that for my security?

There's nothing precluding you from doing that, the system is built for simplicity, but there's nothing wrong with GM's dialing up the complexity.

The hacker doesn't have a high enough stealth rating, so they're found out and the system launches an IC that has Analyze and Trace on it. It would first try Analyzing the hacker's icon and then run a trace if they think it's suspicious. How does a hacker defend against this?

Best way is not to be seen. Even when an alert is triggered the hacker can still try and avoid detection by pitting their hacking + stealth vs computer + analyze (remember that + 4 dice penalty from above, cuz it can start to slow one down.)

Also, how does the Spoof program work? I know how the Exploit program works for breaking into a system, but Spoof used to be used to simply squeeze your way in passed a node you didn't want to bother cracking, or one you didn't have the time/skill to really force open.

Spoof is for those times when you want to get a node to do somethign without hacking it. You have to have gotten a look at something/someone that has the right credentials to do what you want to do and then you use spoof to the convince the system that you are them.

One more thing, if I have the IC successfully Analyze, while it's doing the trace, the system can launch other IC if it thinks it needs it. In doing that, they can only launch a number of programs equal to double their System rating. But this also goes with all of the devices that the system has subscribed to it. Using the security sheath mentioned above, is it possible for IC from other layers of the system to cross over? Say the outer system controls some basic security, but the runner gets passed that and into the core system. Can the core system call in the IC from the outer layer to check in on the runner, or does it have to use it's own IC and launch it itself?

It doesn't explicitly say one way or another but I can't see any reason why it would be not otuside the scope.

[Redjack]

Naah, you can always load your own programs into the Agents payload. In fact, that is how most hackers would do it.

I would disagree that is how "most" hackers do it, but each game is different. Like a drone's pilot program you cannot spend edge on behalf of the agent, which is a drawback to that approach.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would disagree that is how "most" hackers do it, but each game is different. Like a drone's pilot program you cannot spend edge on behalf of the agent, which is a drawback to that approach.

But the Agent cannot run any porograms that are not part of its own payload. If you want an Agent to be able to Analyze anything, the Agent must have an Analyze Program loaded into its payload. Same with any other program: Attack, Blackhammer, Stealth, etc.

[Redjack]

I would disagree that is how "most" hackers do it, but each game is different. Like a drone's pilot program you cannot spend edge on behalf of the agent, which is a drawback to that approach.

But the Agent cannot run any porograms that are not part of its own payload. If you want an Agent to be able to Analyze anything, the Agent must have an Analyze Program loaded into its payload. Same with any other program: Attack, Blackhammer, Stealth, etc.

Your reply does not seem to follow from my post. Sorry - I'm just missing the connection as well as the point you are trying to make...?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But the Agent cannot run any porograms that are not part of its own payload. If you want an Agent to be able to Analyze anything, the Agent must have an Analyze Program loaded into its payload. Same with any other program: Attack, Blackhammer, Stealth, etc.Your reply does not seem to follow from my post. Sorry - I'm just missing the connection as well as the point you are trying to make...?

Maybe I can clear it up.

Lurker said that that Agents need their own progreams (This is true)...
Seerow said that that would be really expensive, and proposed the Pirating as a solution. (True to a degree, but since you can use your own programs and load them into the Agent, it is the worst choice)

I proposed just loading your own programs (which you have already) into the Agent, which is where the "How most hackers would do it" comment came from.

Then, Somehow we got from Agents running their own programs, to spending Edge on the roll, which an Agent cannot do. This came from you.

My response is that that does not matter, because if you want your Agent to do ANYTHING, it needs it own Program Load. So Spending Edge is an irrelevant topic at that point, because you are not performing the action, the Agent is. And for the Agent to perform that action, it needs its own programs.

To tie it all together. It is no more expensive to equip 100 Agents with their own program loads than it is to get your initial outlay of programs for the Hacker, because the hacker should use his own programs in the Agents. And this is indeed how Most hackers likely do it. You COULD spend the money for new copies for every Agent you have, but why would any competant hacker do so?

Probably did not help did it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Seerow]

Maybe I can clear it up.

Lurker said that that Agents need their own progreams (This is true)...
Seerow said that that would be really expensive, and proposed the Pirating as a solution. (True to a degree, but since you can use your own programs and load them into the Agent, it is the worst choice)

I proposed just loading your own programs (which you have already) into the Agent, which is where the "How most hackers would do it" comment came from.

Then, Somehow we got from Agents running their own programs, to spending Edge on the roll, which an Agent cannot do. This came from you.

My response is that that does not matter, because if you want your Agent to do ANYTHING, it needs it own Program Load. So Spending Edge is an irrelevant topic at that point, because you are not performing the action, the Agent is. And for the Agent to perform that action, it needs its own programs.

To tie it all together. It is no more expensive to equip 100 Agents with their own program loads than it is to get your initial outlay of programs for the Hacker, because the hacker should use his own programs in the Agents. And this is indeed how Most hackers likely do it. You COULD spend the money for new copies for every Agent you have, but why would any competant hacker do so?

Probably did not help did it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Okay, this makes sense, but doesn't breaking the copy protection to load the initial programs onto your agents then invoke the pirating rules anyway, resulting in your programs degrading? Or is there something simple I'm missing here?