[X] My Assistant

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay, this makes sense, but doesn't breaking the copy protection to load the initial programs onto your agents then invoke the pirating rules anyway, resulting in your programs degrading? Or is there something simple I'm missing here?

Well, yes, it would indeed initiate degradation, if you track such things.
There are three ways of handling that.

1. Ignore Degradation, and assume that the hacker updates the programs in his spare time, and then patches all the agents packages with the update. Easiest method.
2. Figure the costs of the patches required to stay even, and then just append that to your lifestyle costs. Simple and elegant.
3. Force the issue, and Make the character make all the rolls (in whatever manner you wish, whether through his own programming skills, or access to a Warez Group) to stay current. Don't particularly like this one, but it does work.

[Redjack]

I proposed just loading your own programs (which you have already) into the Agent, which is where the "How most hackers would do it" comment came from.

I misunderstood what exactly "How most hackers would do it". I inferred "... would just use the agent to hack". Clear now and agree. Thanks.

Then, Somehow we got from Agents running their own programs, to spending Edge on the roll, which an Agent cannot do. This came from you.

Yea, that came from the misunderstanding about. Now working from a common baseline, it appears we agree to my off-topic point.

Probably did not help did it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes. Thanks

[Seerow]

Well, yes, it would indeed initiate degradation, if you track such things.
There are three ways of handling that.

1. Ignore Degradation, and assume that the hacker updates the programs in his spare time, and then patches all the agents packages with the update. Easiest method.
2. Figure the costs of the patches required to stay even, and then just append that to your lifestyle costs. Simple and elegant.
3. Force the issue, and Make the character make all the rolls (in whatever manner you wish, whether through his own programming skills, or access to a Warez Group) to stay current. Don't particularly like this one, but it does work.

Yeah, it's mostly the time issue that bugged me. I guess figuring the cost of patching and sticking that in lifestyle costs works well. Thanks.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I misunderstood what exactly "How most hackers would do it". I inferred "... would just use the agent to hack". Clear now and agree. Thanks.

Yea, that came from the misunderstanding about. Now working from a common baseline, it appears we agree to my off-topic point.

Yes. Thanks

Heh... Glad to be of service... It is Good to be on the same page. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CrystalBlue]

OK...now I want to be on the same page too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You're saying that an Agent can either use their programs (one you buy them and load onto them) or use your own program (one that you buy for yourself). If you use your own, you cannot, yourself, roll a test with that program, as it's currently being used by the Agent and the Agent would have to use it. So, a common practice that I'm starting to understand is that a hacker would really just have a docket of Agents that do common functions, such as an Agent that performs your Analyze and Sniffer commands. You would simply turn that Agent on, load them up with your programs of Analyze and Sniffer, and then have them auto-run to detect everything around you. You'd also have an Agent running common programs for Downloading and Uploading files. The real programs you'd want are ones that directly effect you, such as Armor, Stealth, Attack, ect. Things that you plan on affecting you or things you want to roll edge for, as you cannot roll edge for the Agent.

If this is true, I have a new query for you. Say your agent ain't doing that well, and you want to beef up the download speed by throwing more dice at it. Can you take over a currently running process from an Agent, load the program back onto your set, and then roll with edge for it? How would that happen, what kind of an action would that be?

[tete]

Play SR 1.

This is actually a really good idea. SR4s Matrix rules are very similar and SR1 assumes you dont know anything about the Matrix. Just remeber SR4 does not require you to have CPU, SPU, IO and all the other nodes you can split and create what you want. The more nodes the more time the Hacker is going to spend soloing while your other players sit around so keep the node count low.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

OK...now I want to be on the same page too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You're saying that an Agent can either use their programs (one you buy them and load onto them) or use your own program (one that you buy for yourself). If you use your own, you cannot, yourself, roll a test with that program, as it's currently being used by the Agent and the Agent would have to use it. So, a common practice that I'm starting to understand is that a hacker would really just have a docket of Agents that do common functions, such as an Agent that performs your Analyze and Sniffer commands. You would simply turn that Agent on, load them up with your programs of Analyze and Sniffer, and then have them auto-run to detect everything around you. You'd also have an Agent running common programs for Downloading and Uploading files. The real programs you'd want are ones that directly effect you, such as Armor, Stealth, Attack, ect. Things that you plan on affecting you or things you want to roll edge for, as you cannot roll edge for the Agent.

If this is true, I have a new query for you. Say your agent ain't doing that well, and you want to beef up the download speed by throwing more dice at it. Can you take over a currently running process from an Agent, load the program back onto your set, and then roll with edge for it? How would that happen, what kind of an action would that be?

No...
You load a COPY of the programs you have into the Agent's Payload. Now, you have your own copy, that you use (and may spend an Edge point on to do things with), and you have a copy in the Agent that you are using, whcih you cannot spend an Edge point on. Some hackers strictly use Agents to do their work for them (Hackers in a Box), while others use them to protect their systems (These are typically called IC). I would say that for common data searches and what not, most would probably use an agent, if it is not all that important to have an immediate answer. Agewnts can be autonomous hackers. There are plenty of reasons you want that IC package running Analyze on everything that enters your Node. The most advantageous is that YOU do not have to do so.

If you wish to assist an ongoing process, you use the rules for teamwork to do so.

Does that help?

[Neurosis]

I can't really help out but I have a similar question: Does someone have a "Hacking and Rigging for idiots" style guide around somewhere? Not houserules, just a guide that organizes what Players and GMs want/need to know to play in a well formatted guide.

I know a few guides got linked; knasser has one as well, I'm not sure if that one got linked.

[Redjack]

I know a few guides got linked; knasser has one as well, I'm not sure if that one got linked.

I will be including a sample matrix run in the next issue of the Dumpshock Datahaven (though production date is currently December).

[CrystalBlue]

Ok...so I CAN copy my programs into an Agent. So...I'm not understanding something. Sorry. When you give them a copy of the program, that's one that they use themselves and does NOT count against your programs loaded. Correct? I'm just trying to understand why you would EVER buy them their own programs.

[Seerow]

Ok...so I CAN copy my programs into an Agent. So...I'm not understanding something. Sorry. When you give them a copy of the program, that's one that they use themselves and does NOT count against your programs loaded. Correct? I'm just trying to understand why you would EVER buy them their own programs.

Because by the rules most software has copy protection, and breaking that copy protection so you can give copies to your agents causes your software to degrade over time. This is something that can be completely ignored, fixed with money, or fixed with time, as outlined by TJ above.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ok...so I CAN copy my programs into an Agent. So...I'm not understanding something. Sorry. When you give them a copy of the program, that's one that they use themselves and does NOT count against your programs loaded. Correct? I'm just trying to understand why you would EVER buy them their own programs.

Actually, as long as the Agent is running in your link, it DOES count against your program load for degradation. So an Agent with Analyze and Stealth counts as 3 programs loaded. You can use program suites (in this case the Analyze and Stealth would count as 1 slot, so 2 for program load counting the Agent itself) in an agent, and that would reduce the load, but it would make every program in the suite vulnerable as a single point for attack.

As for why you would buy them their own programs, you probably wouldn't. There is no incentive to do so.

Helping any? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CrystalBlue]

Maybe...or it's making me more confused...

I can only have a number of programs loaded/devices subscribed at one time, which is System x 2, if I remember correctly. When you load up more programs or subscribe more devices, you lower your Response rating, which means your system is taking a hit on performance.

Why would I buy them their own programs? Because then I can give them the programs they need AND have the same programs loaded for myself while not having to worry about their drain on my system rating. I could then load up other programs which I need, such as Armor Stealth, Attack, Exploit, Spoof. Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would you want to swap out programs all the time when you just make sure you have all the programs you need right there and ready to go?

[Wraith235]

I created a Comprehensive list of all matrix actions a while ago ... I have it hosted on Aarons Site at this address http://pavao.org/shadowrun/miscellany/Comp...xActionList.ods

its created using open office its 15 pages long ... it has every action listed for every program from Unwired and the Core book (I even scanned through the other books as well) I hope this helps

[suoq]

When you load up more programs or subscribe more devices, you lower your Response rating, which means your system is taking a hit on performance.

Oddly enough, it doesn't do much. As far as I can see your Matrix Initiative Drops and that's about it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oddly enough, it doesn't do much. As far as I can see your Matrix Initiative Drops and that's about it.

Ironically, you are correct. It just drops your response.

[suoq]

Ironically, you are correct.

Are you trying to be deliberately insulting?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Maybe...or it's making me more confused...

I can only have a number of programs loaded/devices subscribed at one time, which is System x 2, if I remember correctly. When you load up more programs or subscribe more devices, you lower your Response rating, which means your system is taking a hit on performance.

Okay. You can have a number of SUBSCRIPTIONS equal to 2x System, before degradation sets it, any Subscriptions beyond that limit count as active programs, and reduce the Response accordingly.

You can have a number of active programs equal to your System Ratin -1 before your Response degrades. When you have System number of Programs it degrades by -1. However, it only reduces your Initiative, for most things. There are a fewthings that use Response, but not too many. There is a list int eh book which shows what uses Response. The Performance hiot is not horrible, but can be an issue if it gets to big, because you will start to lose out to your opposition.

Why would I buy them their own programs? Because then I can give them the programs they need AND have the same programs loaded for myself while not having to worry about their drain on my system rating. I could then load up other programs which I need, such as Armor Stealth, Attack, Exploit, Spoof. Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would you want to swap out programs all the time when you just make sure you have all the programs you need right there and ready to go?

Well, Registered Programs are automatically updated, though they leave a more distinctive datatrail. If you are a normal user, you likely purchase programs for your agents.

For hackers, you would likely NOT purchase programs for your agents, because you can just load them up from your own data storage. However, you STILL have to woory about the drain on system performance, because Agents (and their payloads) still count as active programs on your system, and tehrefore still affect System Degradation due to actively running programs.

Now, if you have a sufficiently high-end comlink, with an exceptional Response (say a 6-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) , you can run most of your programs, along with a few Agents/IC and still be okay. The Comlink my Cyberlogician runs has a Response and System of 8. I routinely run 30 programs concurrently, so Response is an effective 5. Not too bad. Of course, you can do okay with a Rating 6 as well; by only running 17 programs you run at an effective Rating of 4. Not too horrible.

Hopefully that was More Helpful? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Are you trying to be deliberately insulting?

I was commenting upon the irony that the Significant Performance Degradation that is actually experienced is just a small, often negligable (and easily ignored), hit to Response, instead of what it likely should be. Not trying to cause issues here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Redjack]

Ironically, you are correct. It just drops your response.

And a drop in response limits system effective rating which in turn limits the effective rating of any programs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And a drop in response limits system effective rating which in turn limits the effective rating of any programs.

Actually it does not. Limits are baased upon the unmoddified ratings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Otherwise you would never be able to use a Metalink.

[Redjack]

Actually it does not. Limits are baased upon the unmoddified ratings. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Otherwise you would never be able to use a Metalink.

, the device’s Response rating is temporarily reduced by one; this Response loss does not affect the device’s maximum System rating.

Drat! I missed that somewhere...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Drat! I missed that somewhere...

Happens to the best of us Redjack... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aaron]

Drat! I missed that somewhere...

No, you're just remembering the original SR4 rules. The "doesn't affect maximum System rating" thing was a fix in SR4A.

[Redjack]

Ah ha! Thanks!