[X] My Assistant

[suoq]

I guarantee that makes the Face more convincing

When I interviewed people for employment we would occasionally interview people who spent way too much time researching us on the internet. They talked very knowledgeably about things they had absolutely no clue about, feeding us back our own corporate PR and B.S. The result was predictable by everyone except the person being interviewed.

Any information age is also a misinformation age.

[Kirk]

When I interviewed people for employment we would occasionally interview people who spent way too much time researching us on the internet. They talked very knowledgeably about things they had absolutely no clue about, feeding us back our own corporate PR and B.S. The result was predictable by everyone except the person being interviewed.

Any information age is also a misinformation age.

I suspect you also interviewed people who did way too little time researching you as well.

Once more, the farley file was an example of what should be a standard AR schematic/file that would assist a face. The claim was that no such thing existed. Much as any other file, it can be misused. Its presence isn't a guarantee of success. Its absence, however, means the face has to work harder to do his job just as a mechanic without plans for the modification or the team who has to work with jammed commlinks.

[UmaroVI]

Total Recoil Comp:5 (2 internal-IIRC, 1 for each of sling, foregrip and shockpad---also not sure sling and foregrip can contribute together).

Full 10 round burst Recoil modifier is: -5
Long burst is a -1
All others are absorbed.

That's actually not correct, which I think proves my point. The complete answer:

This is a trick question. You can't answer it without knowing whether it has a sling accessory or a sling mod, same for foregrip accessory vs. mod, because they do different things. I should note that your answer is never right, though.

Case 1: both are mods
Foregrip and Sling stack to provide a total RC of 2, Shock Pad is 1, Alpha is 2. But wait - Foregrip and Sling stack, but Sling and Shock pad don't! The answer is 4 recoil compensation provided for any type of fire.

Case 2: Foregrip is a mod, Sling is an accessory. In this case the answer is 4, because sling accessories don't provide recoil compensation (so 1 foregrip, 1 shock pad, 2 alpha). Type of fire doesn't matter this time either.

Case 3: Foregrip is an accessory, Sling is a mod. Foregrip Accessories only add their 1 RC on full bursts. So on a full burst, the answer is 4 (as in case 1). But on any other type of fire, the answer is 3, because slings and shockpads don't stack (so 1 from either one of them), and the foregrip doesn't apply. Final answer: 3 for anything but full bursts, 4 for full bursts

Case 4: both are accessories. Now the sling doesn't provide RC and the foregrip provides 1 RC on full bursts. So the answer is 4 on full bursts (foregrip + shock pad + alpha 2), 3 otherwise (shock pad + alpha 2.

Now that's what I call clear and simple! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'll bet that one of the things the AR provides is a Farley File, and I guarantee that makes the Face more convincing. More accurately, and reflected in my recommendation of a negative if it isn't on, is that the ARs provide everyone a farley file and not using one makes a person more likely to commit minor gaffes.

In case you don't know, farley files are named for the device created by James Farley for FDR. Basically, every person with whom FDR dealt, who he ever met, got the critical details entered in a file. Before FDR met the person, Farley would put the file sheet in front of FDR for a quick perusal. Thus he'd know of the visitor's wife, maybe that the daughter had entered college. Not every detail, just the things a good friend would know and use in casual conversation.

If everyone uses farley files, and the face uses them better, then the face who does NOT use one is handicapping himself as much as a street sam who doesn't use tacnet.

Which is irrelevant if you have acces to that information in your Memory. You DO NOT NEED AR to get the benefits of your Farley File. Claiming that it is required is actually pretty funny...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Possible. I wager, however, that most GMs never remember to give the bonuses. Not least because they haven't thought through the assistance an always-on infoweb CAN provide even before specialized emotisoft or tacsoft or other *soft gets added. The easiest way i can think of to apply it is just create a general -1 in all cases where the mode is set to hidden UNLESS a specific circumstance (like tacsoft) overrides it.

Except for that Always-On Info Web to be useful, you have to actually pause to access it and use it. Not so useful in the midst of negotiations. It CAN be handy, no doubt, but it is not speed of thought access, nor is it indexed for your convenience. And very few people are going to be set up so that it is useful.

Why are you penalizing people for not using something? It is a BONUS, NOT A PENALTY.

The Mind Boggles... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's actually not correct, which I think proves my point. The complete answer:

This is a trick question. You can't answer it without knowing whether it has a sling accessory or a sling mod, same for foregrip accessory vs. mod, because they do different things. I should note that your answer is never right, though.

Case 1: both are mods
Foregrip and Sling stack to provide a total RC of 2, Shock Pad is 1, Alpha is 2. But wait - Foregrip and Sling stack, but Sling and Shock pad don't! The answer is 4 recoil compensation provided for any type of fire.

Case 2: Foregrip is a mod, Sling is an accessory. In this case the answer is 4, because sling accessories don't provide recoil compensation (so 1 foregrip, 1 shock pad, 2 alpha). Type of fire doesn't matter this time either.

Case 3: Foregrip is an accessory, Sling is a mod. Foregrip Accessories only add their 1 RC on full bursts. So on a full burst, the answer is 4 (as in case 1). But on any other type of fire, the answer is 3, because slings and shockpads don't stack (so 1 from either one of them), and the foregrip doesn't apply. Final answer: 3 for anything but full bursts, 4 for full bursts

Case 4: both are accessories. Now the sling doesn't provide RC and the foregrip provides 1 RC on full bursts. So the answer is 4 on full bursts (foregrip + shock pad + alpha 2), 3 otherwise (shock pad + alpha 2.

Now that's what I call clear and simple! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And once you have that information on the sheet, IT IS clear and simple. You will know what your RC is; and then you go from there. Don't you put your RC mods on your character sheet? Everyopne I have ever played with does. It has never been a problem at any table I have polayed at.

[suoq]

I suspect you also interviewed people who did way too little time researching you as well.

Nope. That may happen in places, but I've never actually experienced it.

Its absence, however, means the face has to work harder to do his job

I'm sorry, but I don't see that. I don't see that in fluff. I don't see that in crunch. And I don't see it following logically UNLESS you have someone else doing real time research as you're talking and feeding you the data and that data feed has to happen though public routing.

What is the source for the data you you claim is helping in AR and why does it need to be displayed in AR and why is the commlink unable to display it to you in AR if the commlink is hidden? I'm sure this is something you've carefully thought out, but since I can't see your thought process here, I'm not coming to the same conclusion as you.

[Kirk]

Except for that Always-On Info Web to be useful, you have to actually pause to access it and use it. Not so useful in the midst of negotiations. It CAN be handy, no doubt, but it is not speed of thought access, nor is it indexed for your convenience. And very few people are going to be set up so that it is useful.

Why are you penalizing people for not using something? It is a BONUS, NOT A PENALTY.

The Mind Boggles... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

No pause is needed to use emotisoft. No pause is needed to use tacsoft. Yes, to read a full file a pause might be needed. But if all you're needing is cues it becomes easy to have no-pause requirements. Especially as (boggle, but it's fluff as written) the holo can be displayed between you and another and the other can't see it.

Why am I penalizing for not using something. Because according to fluff it's constant use material. For just about everybody the matrix is always on, always feeding info, both useful and spam.

If you choose to remove a tool that everyone else uses, you are at a handicap. It's that simple.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No pause is needed to use emotisoft. No pause is needed to use tacsoft. Yes, to read a full file a pause might be needed. But if all you're needing is cues it becomes easy to have no-pause requirements. Especially as (boggle, but it's fluff as written) the holo can be displayed between you and another and the other can't see it.

Why am I penalizing for not using something. Because according to fluff it's constant use material. For just about everybody the matrix is always on, always feeding info, both useful and spam.

If you choose to remove a tool that everyone else uses, you are at a handicap. It's that simple.

I so disagree that I cannot even articulate it properly. It is not as simple as you claim it to be. If it were, everyone would agree with you, which is obviously not the case.

And AR is not Constant Use MATERIAL. It is constant bombardment of information. Who says that it is useful information? Likely 99% of what you are bombarded with is actually pretty useless. Filtering all that information is likely an issue. As for Emotisofts, they are likely ran by Agents that update the USEFUL information that they provide. Updating a Tacnet takes an action. So if no one is aver updating the tacnet, how is anyone ever getting any information out of it?

I really think that you need to re-evaluate your ideas on AR.

[Sengir]

and why is the commlink unable to display it to you in AR if the commlink is hidden?

That's what I'm wondering about, too. Going passive/hidden means you commlink will ignore unsolicited connections (an therefore AROs) from the outside, it does not mean that you lose the ability to perceive AR.

As for getting a penalty when not using something potentially beneficial, there is no penalty for not using a smartlink. You simply don't get the bonus.

[suoq]

I think it just hit me. He's attempting to add the Snow Crash Gargoyle Bonus (Hiro buys a motorcycle) without the Snow Crash Gargoyle Penalty (Ewww. You're a freaking gargoyle"). At least that's my best guess right now. It may be he pictures everyone as a Snow Crash Gargoyle.

[Kirk]

I so disagree that I cannot even articulate it properly. It is not as simple as you claim it to be. If it were, everyone would agree with you, which is obviously not the case.

And AR is not Constant Use MATERIAL. It is constant bombardment of information. Who says that it is useful information? Likely 99% of what you are bombarded with is actually pretty useless. Filtering all that information is likely an issue. As for Emotisofts, they are likely ran by Agents that update the USEFUL information that they provide. Updating a Tacnet takes an action. So if no one is aver updating the tacnet, how is anyone ever getting any information out of it?

I really think that you need to re-evaluate your ideas on AR.

Well, I'm basing my position on little things like:

Augmented reality
(AR) overlays images, data, and Matrix feeds on your physical senses
like a personal heads-up display; with the aid of personal electronics
you can see a map, a restaurant’s menu, or an incoming email message
in real time and without even having to look down. Wireless networking
also allows computer-aided socializing with anyone in your immediate
vicinity, whether you want to read that hot elf ’s public profile,
hock an extra pair of Speed Coma tickets, or take on a contender in an
Avatar Assassin deathmatch

and

In Trendz
Music, she instantly connects to the store’s music library, sampling several
songs before buying them and downloading them directly to her SP9. As she’s
purchasing the music, the system lets her know that Ingrid Needstrom—one
of the musicians she bought songs from—is playing a gig downtown next
week.

and

Once upon a time you’d see
someone walking down the street and talking to themselves, and
you’d figure they’d lost it. Now you can walk down any urban street
and you’ll see crowds of people, AR glasses on, holding conversations
with people only they can see or hear. Sure, you get your folks
with built in ‘links, mostly older folk who just can’t quite seem to
go with the flow and act like raving lunatics with the rest of the
youngsters.

and

Daily life is constantly augmented. People view the world
through their AR glasses or cybereyes, using the AROs that guide
them through the streets, enjoying or ignoring the constant barrage
of advertisements, and watching streaming news or gossip
feeds.

In short, I'm looking at fluff as written. That you don't like it is fine - you run your game your way. No problem.

But the world is described as full-time info-feed. That 90% is junk does not stop the underlying fact, nor the fluff as written.

[Kirk]

I think it just hit me. He's attempting to add the Snow Crash Gargoyle Bonus (Hiro buys a motorcycle) without the Snow Crash Gargoyle Penalty (Ewww. You're a freaking gargoyle"). At least that's my best guess right now. It may be he pictures everyone as a Snow Crash Gargoyle.

Huh. You know, I hadn't considered it that way, but is indeed some of what I'm saying. And I'm saying it because I've read the fluff.

Since my prior experience with SR was about 20 years ago I don't have the immersion of the matrix of 1/2/3 influencing what I'm seeing. Instead I'm basing solely on SR4 fluff as written.

Everyone has AR on all the time. They get some stuff automatically - how much and how useful depends on their skill and experience and in some cases situations. That's per the fluff as written.

If it's not SR as the old-timers play it, well, I'm not (in SR) an old-timer.

[Grinder]

Hey Kirk, hey TJ: we got it. You disagree and won't come to even a minute agreement, so let it go, ok?

[Kirk]

Hey Kirk, hey TJ: we got it. You disagree and won't come to even a minute agreement, so let it go, ok?

But, but...

[Sengir]

I think it just hit me. He's attempting to add the Snow Crash Gargoyle Bonus (Hiro buys a motorcycle) without the Snow Crash Gargoyle Penalty (Ewww. You're a freaking gargoyle"). At least that's my best guess right now. It may be he pictures everyone as a Snow Crash Gargoyle.

Well, IIRC Hiro got the information needed to pull a fast one on the seller because he was actively looking for it, not because he was accepting every uninvited spam message (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And that scenario is totally normal in my games, when going to a meeting or fast-talking into a corp facility, one of the guys present has a simrig (or just cybereyes + lip-reading software) and the hacker tags along virtually, digging out useful leverage or just telling the head negotiator to haggle harder.

[Grinder]

But, but...

We had that way too often in the last months. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[suoq]

Most people have AR on all the time.

Agreed after my editing.

They get some stuff automatically - how much and how useful depends on their skill and experience and in some cases situations.

This is where we seem to disagree. What people get, as far as I can see in the fluff, is what other people want them to get. The receiver is "passive" in that they're not actively "asking" for the information. If their commlink is active, nearby nodes can browse their commlink and decide what to send them. From a logical standpoint, it makes sense for upscale blocks to limit this AR spam to "tasteful".

What you seem to be describing is some form of automated data search and browse without an agent and the results of that search being displayed in AR. I'm not seeing that in the fluff. It would be cool, and I can see giving a bonus (or personally, extra info to be used in RP) to someone who has an agent tasked to do just that.

---------

Grinder: If this is making you upset, you have my apologies. I'm trying to come to an understanding because I think there's a middle ground I want to find and can't find on my own.

[Seerow]

Agreed after my editing.This is where we seem to disagree. What people get, as far as I can see in the fluff, is what other people want them to get. The receiver is "passive" in that they're not actively "asking" for the information. If their commlink is active, nearby nodes can browse their commlink and decide what to send them. From a logical standpoint, it makes sense for upscale blocks to limit this AR spam to "tasteful".

What you seem to be describing is some form of automated data search and browse without an agent being displayed in AR and I'm missing that in the fluff.

The problem, as with so many other things in Shadowrun, is that the rules on AR bonuses are really poorly thought out and described. It's basically "While you're in AR get between +3 dice pool and -3 dice pool to whatever you're doing, at GMs discretion". That's not verbatim, but pretty much sums up the rules for that particular modifier. So players always automatically want the best modifier, while ignoring the fact that the GM can apply the penalties at will as well.


Personally, I'd make it so you do a browse+datasearch test to find something relevant to the test you are doing (such as the AR schematic for a vehicle in one of the examples), and what you find gives a +1 dicepool modifier to the test per 2 hits. Penalties for high traffic areas and static would still be GM discretion, because that depends more on the matrix topology of an area than something the player can control. Alternatively you could use the optional rule from Unwired that gives a system+response test, with a +1 dice pool modifier for every hit, but that can allow for some pretty big bonuses on a lucky roll.

[Kirk]

Agreed after my editing.This is where we seem to disagree. What people get, as far as I can see in the fluff, is what other people want them to get. The receiver is "passive" in that they're not actively "asking" for the information. If their commlink is active, nearby nodes can browse their commlink and decide what to send them. From a logical standpoint, it makes sense for upscale blocks to limit this AR spam to "tasteful".

What you seem to be describing is some form of automated data search and browse without an agent and the results of that search being displayed in AR. I'm not seeing that in the fluff. It would be cool, and I can see giving a bonus (or personally, extra info to be used in RP) to someone who has an agent tasked to do just that.

---------

Grinder: If this is making you upset, you have my apologies. I'm trying to come to an understanding because I think there's a middle ground I want to find and can't find on my own.

I think the most relevant fluff demonstrating what I perceive is example #1, SR4A 218. Sketchy Alex gets some stuff on request, some stuff is autopulled by her system because it's relevant to her circumstances and situation, and some unwanted stuff with which she has to deal. It's the middle one that's the automated search and display example here.

Consider also the example of the repair needed on AR 10. You get a couple of pop-up notices: repair is needed, please authorize repairman and payment.

Now, I think what set everyone off was my suggestion of a general -1 mod if the node is set to hidden. To be fair that might be a bit of overkill. On the other hand I still think there are going to be a lot of unnoticed but ubiquitous feeds that, if absent, hamper performance.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, I'm basing my position on little things like:
...

In short, I'm looking at fluff as written. That you don't like it is fine - you run your game your way. No problem.

But the world is described as full-time info-feed. That 90% is junk does not stop the underlying fact, nor the fluff as written.

I have no issues with the Fluff, just your interpretation of it.

None of your examples are instant gratification on 100 different channels. Case in point: to preview the music, you need to actually preview the music. Full time info feed does not lead to utility, nor does it lead to INSTANT useability.

All Passive/Hidden modes do is allow you to take what you want, and ignore the rest. You can still have AR access in Passive/Hidden Modes, you are just not being bombarded with the things that you choose to ignore.

Very different from having access to everything all the time, Which is patently not the case, as you STILL have to filter whatever it is you are receiving for it to be of any use.

As for this:

I think the most relevant fluff demonstrating what I perceive is example #1, SR4A 218. Sketchy Alex gets some stuff on request, some stuff is autopulled by her system because it's relevant to her circumstances and situation, and some unwanted stuff with which she has to deal. It's the middle one that's the automated search and display example here.

The autopulled data, in the example above, has to be performed by something. Your system does not have the capabilities for that, so it must, by needs, be an Agent. And an agent has to interact (it needs to actually make rolls), has to have parameters to follow, and has to know exactly what you want (requiring YOU to tell it). None of this is automatic in any way.

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bigity]

The problem, as with so many other things in Shadowrun, is that the rules on AR bonuses are really poorly thought out and described. It's basically "While you're in AR get between +3 dice pool and -3 dice pool to whatever you're doing, at GMs discretion". That's not verbatim, but pretty much sums up the rules for that particular modifier. So players always automatically want the best modifier, while ignoring the fact that the GM can apply the penalties at will as well.


Personally, I'd make it so you do a browse+datasearch test to find something relevant to the test you are doing (such as the AR schematic for a vehicle in one of the examples), and what you find gives a +1 dicepool modifier to the test per 2 hits. Penalties for high traffic areas and static would still be GM discretion, because that depends more on the matrix topology of an area than something the player can control. Alternatively you could use the optional rule from Unwired that gives a system+response test, with a +1 dice pool modifier for every hit, but that can allow for some pretty big bonuses on a lucky roll.

I don't see anything about any -3 due to not having AR up. There is a possible bonus to be had, but I don't see anything in that section about a penalty.

[Kirk]

I have no issues with the Fluff, just your interpretation of it.

None of your examples are instant gratification on 100 different channels. Case in point: to preview the music, you need to actually preview the music. Full time info feed does not lead to utility, nor does it lead to INSTANT useability.

All Passive/Hidden modes do is allow you to take what you want, and ignore the rest. You can still have AR access in Passive/Hidden Modes, you are just not being bombarded with the things that you choose to ignore.

Very different from having access to everything all the time, Which is patently not the case, as you STILL have to filter whatever it is you are receiving for it to be of any use.

As for this:


The autopulled data, in the example above, has to be performed by something. Your system does not have the capabilities for that, so it must, by needs, be an Agent. And an agent has to interact (it needs to actually make rolls), has to have parameters to follow, and has to know exactly what you want (requiring YOU to tell it). None of this is automatic in any way.

No worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But she didn't call up whether there would be a concert. She was browsing music and got a popup saying "hey, this artist is doing a concert tonight."

Still, your post clarified where the perception error is. I'm not saying 100 different channels of solid information. I'm saying smart-queue info. It doesn't blindly add info it knows will be relevant to you. It sends you stuff it "thinks" might be relevant based on your previous actions and current circumstances.

I walk into a crowded bar, and my friends Joe and Sally with whom I usually drink are in there. I get an ARO smartbox highlighting their location. Mark and Jack, a pair I know but with whom I don't usually drink, are also in the bar. My "people you know located nearby" ARO pops up a button I can open if I want which will identify them. Note it's an interaction. It doesn't pop a highlight on everybody, just those I cued it to show. It does pop a "more info" button, though, without my requesting it.

(edited to add) In addition, it also sends me the bar menu and price list, the specials based on whatever I ordered last time, some advertiser spam that convinced it I wanted to know because I once drank /this/ on a dare... part of working with the commlink is training the heuristics.

It won't show me everything I need. It'll show me stuff I don't need. However, if I have it I have the option. If I don't, the options that can give me some assistance are gone. I can still find Joe and Sally, and might run into (or avoid if that's my preference) Mark and Jack. It's just a bit harder.

[Seerow]

I don't see anything about any -3 due to not having AR up. There is a possible bonus to be had, but I don't see anything in that section about a penalty.

Not -3 for not having AR up, -1 to -3 for having AR up in something like a spam zone (see page 220 SR4A). There's also distraction penalties ranging from -1 to -3 for doing something in the matrix, or a hacker cause cause distractions equivalent to a spam zone (page 225 SR4A).

[Bigity]

Not -3 for not having AR up, -1 to -3 for having AR up in something like a spam zone (see page 220 SR4A). There's also distraction penalties ranging from -1 to -3 for doing something in the matrix, or a hacker cause cause distractions equivalent to a spam zone (page 225 SR4A).

Ah, my fault for misreading it then, thanks.