[X] My Assistant

[Seerow]

Ah, my fault for misreading it then, thanks.

No problem, I think someone else WAS using the argument that disconnecting from AR causes penalties because of peoples' reliance on it, so it's not hard to confuse arguments. It wasn't however -my- argument.




Edit: To get somewhat back on the topic of rules inconsistencies with 4th edition, or RAW just being funny: Try and figure out if by RAW there's anyway to reduce a databomb's damage after it goes off (ie find a citation that you are able to use armor vs it), or if a hacker using Black Hammer jams a connection the same way Black IC allegedly does.

[Jhaiisiin]

Another way to look at the AR feeds, is to go to Facebook, or hell, even CNN, and look for something that isn't the story of the day. It's gonna take you a moment to find it, assuming it's on the first page. Being in active mode accepting all connections is like that. You get hit with everything. Limiting yourself to passive or hidden will filter all that innocuous stuff. To me, it'd be a huge benefit to *not* have all that stuff filtering in. Have an agent set to auto-pull information based on key words during your interaction if you need to, but get rid of all the other crap. Because really, when you're on a run to infiltrate a delta black facility, you really don't need to know that two celebrities just broke up and that the news is reporting an accident 4 cities away. You need what is relevant to your situation right in front of you. Anything more and you've got an AR distraction, not an AR assistance issue.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But she didn't call up whether there would be a concert. She was browsing music and got a popup saying "hey, this artist is doing a concert tonight."

Still, your post clarified where the perception error is. I'm not saying 100 different channels of solid information. I'm saying smart-queue info. It doesn't blindly add info it knows will be relevant to you. It sends you stuff it "thinks" might be relevant based on your previous actions and current circumstances.

I walk into a crowded bar, and my friends Joe and Sally with whom I usually drink are in there. I get an ARO smartbox highlighting their location. Mark and Jack, a pair I know but with whom I don't usually drink, are also in the bar. My "people you know located nearby" ARO pops up a button I can open if I want which will identify them. Note it's an interaction. It doesn't pop a highlight on everybody, just those I cued it to show. It does pop a "more info" button, though, without my requesting it.

(edited to add) In addition, it also sends me the bar menu and price list, the specials based on whatever I ordered last time, some advertiser spam that convinced it I wanted to know because I once drank /this/ on a dare... part of working with the commlink is training the heuristics.

It won't show me everything I need. It'll show me stuff I don't need. However, if I have it I have the option. If I don't, the options that can give me some assistance are gone. I can still find Joe and Sally, and might run into (or avoid if that's my preference) Mark and Jack. It's just a bit harder.

Sure.... If you are Active Mode. I have no problem with this at all, and makes a ton of sense. In passive/hidden Mode, however, you will still get any of the ARO's from your friends, becuase they are likely authorized, as is the menu and drink list from the club you are at (you knew you were going there, and those are authorized. However, since you are not "Active" any Specials or "Tailored Adds" are likely not allowed through). Not allowing the "Smart Queue" information into your link is not a penalty. Smart Queue Information requires interaction to function; it is NOT automatic.

What you see as "Assistance" many others see as "Annoyances" (one of the reasons I still do not have a Smart Phone or Cell Phone). And even so, it does not penalize you to ignore the "Assistance or Annoyances" that are prevalent in AR. The only penalty you should have is NOT receiving the BONUS. That is not a Drawback, it is a Feature. If you want more info, all you need do is search for it (or have your Agent Search for it). No need to be Active for that at all (unless you are in a place that requires "Active" mode).

As far as the "training your Heuristics" argument goes, that is what Passive Mode is for. It will filter the garbage, and still alert you to connection attempts to see if you want to accept them. Hidden just ignores everything not on your list, and does not alert you to the typical connection attempts asssociated with being in a crowded environment. You will still be alerted if your Comlink is being hacked (asssuming your protocols are set that way and the hardware/software catches them coming in).

[Kirk]

Allow me to summarize.

I said AR and its constant input could be a help, so much so that either GMs should be giving the +1 most of the time OR, given that they're not, a general -1 should exist when AR isn't used (with the digressive question as to whether hidden shuts down much of the AR use.)

I was told that there was no way AR could be helpful, with a specific example being to a face - that no possible schematic existed.

I gave a real world example of the farleyfile. There was much babble of how the farleyfile could be misused.

I was then told that there was no fluff where information was presented unrequested. I showed otherwise. Now it's "but that's only in active, and besides it's a distraction."

I am boggled that when you ask for a point, I raise the example, and you say basically "well that doesn't count."

The point Grinder made is still cogent. We disagree. We are going to disagree. At this point we're just repeating the disagreement from different directions.

I do think the general -1 is probably excessive. On the other hand I still think most GMs don't give +1 for AR enough - at least, based on what I've seen and read so far. I can't - WON'T - fix it. I raise it for a consideration, but think all salient points have been made.

[Sengir]

I was then told that there was no fluff where information was presented unrequested. I showed otherwise. Now it's "but that's only in active, and besides it's a distraction."

Because that's what it says in the rules, uninvited stuff only gets on your 'link when you are running active. And while some people sure like the "this might also be of interest to you" feature, there is not much a runner can gain from it. Many people also used him, but I wouldn't give a hacker a penalty for not using an unnerving assistant

[Ascalaphus]

Possible. I wager, however, that most GMs never remember to give the bonuses. Not least because they haven't thought through the assistance an always-on infoweb CAN provide even before specialized emotisoft or tacsoft or other *soft gets added. The easiest way i can think of to apply it is just create a general -1 in all cases where the mode is set to hidden UNLESS a specific circumstance (like tacsoft) overrides it.

I don't really like your idea, but for a subtly different reason than the others, it seems.

The game rules basically just describe interactions between people, without any tech being involved. They could be on a Siberian tundra, the Barrens, at the downtown mall or Renraku HQ; they're the baseline game rules and are the same everywhere. They don't measure your performance at skills compared to other people, they measure you according to an absolute standard.

AR benefits/drawbacks and any other tech get added afterwards. They aren't an inherent, inborn part of characters. The game rules and characters can all function just fine in a no-tech environment.

Of course, a Face who doesn't use AR/Farley file will be at a disadvantage, but not a penalty. It's just that all the other faces are getting a bonus.

But, but...

You score points with me for referring to that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Allow me to summarize.

I will also provide my counterpoints and then we can agree to diagree then...

I said AR and its constant input could be a help, so much so that either GMs should be giving the +1 most of the time OR, given that they're not, a general -1 should exist when AR isn't used (with the digressive question as to whether hidden shuts down much of the AR use.)]

And I think that this is the crux of our disagreement. Lack of AR does not a Penalty create. Chooseing to not use Active Mode and AR should opnly result in you not getting the BONUS, not generate a penalty.

I was told that there was no way AR could be helpful, with a specific example being to a face - that no possible schematic existed.

Not sure about anyone else, But I said that AR was not as helpful as you imply. As for the Face and the Schematic. You still have yet to answer how having a drawing helps a Face Talk. I do agree that the AR bonus could be useful, and it would be situational.

I gave a real world example of the farleyfile. There was much babble of how the farleyfile could be misused.

Again, I never said it could be misused. I said it is not useful "In the Moment." It is a file like that is constantly updated and referenced, and to be useful, must be perused. You will not just get a flash of insight on accessing the file, you must interact with it.

I was then told that there was no fluff where information was presented unrequested. I showed otherwise. Now it's "but that's only in active, and besides it's a distraction."

But, IT IS only in active mode. In Passive Mode, you can shunt it off or ignore it, and in Hidden Mode, it is nonexistant. So Active Mode is the only place that it truyly matters, and it is often more of a distraction than it is a help. Ther fact of Viral Advertising and rampant spam makes Active Mode less than immediately useful most of the time. Does it have its benefits? Sure, and I did not dispute that, but it is not as useful as you seem to be implying.

I am boggled that when you ask for a point, I raise the example, and you say basically "well that doesn't count."

Note that I did not say it did not count, I said it was less useful than you implied.

The point Grinder made is still cogent. We disagree. We are going to disagree. At this point we're just repeating the disagreement from different directions.

I do think the general -1 is probably excessive. On the other hand I still think most GMs don't give +1 for AR enough - at least, based on what I've seen and read so far. I can't - WON'T - fix it. I raise it for a consideration, but think all salient points have been made.

This is the crux of the disagreement, though. Any penalty to non-use of AR is excessive, since it is meant to be a Bonus, and not a penalty. THIS was the main issue I was having with your ideas. Not that it could grant a bonus (which it is intended for), but that it could somehow give a penalty for NOT using it.

*Shrug* Let's agree to disagree here. I did enjoy the discourse though. Thanks.

[Kirk]

noting only to say I read your rebuttal. Thank you as well.

[Seerow]

Not sure about anyone else, But I said that AR was not as helpful as you imply. As for the Face and the Schematic. You still have yet to answer how having a drawing helps a Face Talk. I do agree that the AR bonus could be useful, and it would be situational.

Ask Empathy Software. That's basically exactly what it does.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ask Empathy Software. That's basically exactly what it does.

Sort of. It is a realtime assistant to interactions only if you have the gear to run it on (Easily obtained, if a little expensive), and only for Social Tests. Most applications of the Sensor Software run best with an Agent processing the feeds and using teamwork to give bonuses. Not many people run them this way in my experience here on the forums, though.

[suoq]

I think as I've read the last couple pages, I've realize that there is no good central ground. I see parts of what Kirk is saying but the core difference (to me anyway) is that his AR is actively seeking and displaying data (as if he had a very smart agent) where my AR is actively filtering out data transmitted to my commlink from agents on other nodes that are reading my commlink (as described under how an active commlink works) or from other nodes wide broadcasting data (such as AR menus).

His AR is much more useful than mine because he reads the fluff as if the AR is initiated by his commlink for his benefit where I read the fluff as AR initiated by other nodes for the benefit of the owners of those nodes.

[Kirk]

I think as I've read the last couple pages, I've realize that there is no good central ground. I see parts of what Kirk is saying but the core difference (to me anyway) is that his AR is actively seeking and displaying data (as if he had a very smart agent) where my AR is actively filtering out data transmitted to my commlink from agents on other nodes that are reading my commlink (as described under how an active commlink works) or from other nodes wide broadcasting data (such as AR menus).

His AR is much more useful than mine because he reads the fluff as if the AR is initiated by his commlink for his benefit where I read the fluff as AR initiated by other nodes for the benefit of the owners of those nodes.

Exactly.

[Grinder]

The point Grinder made is still cogent. We disagree. We are going to disagree. At this point we're just repeating the disagreement from different directions.

At least.

But that was a mod post that asked you politeley to stop the exchange of arguments - and you simply ignored it. Great stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) If you want to continue your personal "discussion" with TJ, use PMs and don't clutter this thread with your pointless postings any more (this goes for TJ too). And I don't want to read the next post saying "blabla I'm sorry blabla".

[CanRay]

4th Edition does not appear to be planned for the heap any time soon. So a few years of stuff is ahead of us, at least. Let's deal with the system as best we can as we make a pretty, pretty universe out of a dystopia.

And not piss off the mods.