Who would win in a fight?, The first rule of fight club is... Options

[Neurosis]

Alright, so the purpose of this thread is to propose a matchup between any two established canonical Shadowrun NPCs. The rules are as follows:

1) The fight is a bareknuckle brawl. I don't care what the character's shticks are, it is NOT a matrix duel, a firefight, or an astral battle. It is a fist fight. So wired reflexes, adept powers, and increase ability or combat sense spells are fine, but bone spurs and shock hands are not, nor is manabolt et al. The characters are actually punching each other with their fists.
2) In order to prevent the conversation from degenerating into *numbers*, AT LEAST ONE OF THE COMBATANTS MUST STILL HAVE NO OFFICIAL GAME STATISTICS IN ANY FORM AT THE TIME OF POSTING.
This will give us something to speculate about.
3) Their fighting does not have to make any in-universe sense, but if there is some skewed POV by which it does, all the better.
4) Try, within a reasonable degree, to stick to NPCs everyone has heard of.
5) Try to stick with a reasonably even match. (i.e. Argent vs. Ryan Mercury, not Argent vs. Wilhemina Graff-Beloit. Note that the first matchup violates rule number two.)
6) Corporeal metahumans only.

This being dumpshock, if someone hasn't come up with a matchup to debate within "like five minutes" I'll throw out an idea myself to get this party started.

MATCH ONE: DAMIEN KNIGHT VS. RICHARD VILLIERS.

[Critias]

Dragonslayer Mentor Spirit vs. Wolf Mentor Spirit, cage match. Round one, fight!

[Neurosis]

I definitely do have the impression that all Mentor Spirits are evenly matched (even if their benefits are not). But thanks, Rusty, for reminding me of a rule I forgot!

[CanRay]

Wolf (From "Wolf and Raven") Vs. Wolf (From "Lone Wolf").

Kellan Colt Vs. Sam "Twist" Verner.

Neil The Ork Barbarian Vs. Slade The Sniper.

Lofwyr Vs. Aden. (Both in Metahuman Form), with Ghostwalker (*NOT* In Metahuman form) or the Ancestor Spirit of Mohammad Ali refereeing. (Honestly, the guy will still stare you down today, in his current physical condition, and claim he's still the best, and you know he. Means. Every. Word.).

[Neurosis]

1) Not enough data.

2) Kellan Colt gets this one. Sam just is not the type to hit a girl. His hesitation would be his downfall, and she would make a girl out of him.

3) Neither exists?

4) Really tough call. My inclination is to say Lofwyr, as he wants it more, but I'm open to other opinions.

[CanRay]

1) More than enough data. One's a street kid trained by Kid Stealth, the other has Lone Star training and Skillwires and has been in a street gang. It'd be a good fight! Or do you mean the fact that both books are OOP and most of the kids here with their CommLinks and Nanopaste Trodes wouldn't understand who I'm talking about. ... And when the hell did I start channeling Bull?

2) Can't really argue this one...

3) So? You know back in the '50s Simsense Fans were asking the question. There's probably plans for the flick already in LA. (Coming soon, from Horizon!)

4) Yeah, but Lofwyr has mostly been all business and talk. Aden has the reputation for destruction (Just ask the people of Tehran. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, too soon?). So it'd be a good smack-down, drag-on fight, I think.

[Neurosis]

Don't forget that Lofwyr has already kicked another dragon's ass in hand to hand (or should that be tooth to claw) personal combat. (I know Aden destroyed a CITY, but he had his "magical fire breath" for that.)

[PeteThe1]

We're going bare-knuckle no magic though, so I'd have to bet on Aden. Lofwyr is probably smarter, more magically powerful, and certainly more ruthless and likely to cheat (get a big folding chair maybe), but if we kept it fair Aden seems more flat-out brutal. Plus sirrushes are a little faster than western dragons, and speed kills.

How about Damien Knight vs Richard Villiers?

[CanRay]

Knight Vs. Villiers I would pay to see.

Knight would get it, however. Military Experience and Training...

[LurkerOutThere]

Knight would win, but be disqualified because it was actually one of his body doubles.

[Critias]

1) I'd bet on Wolf, of Wolf and Raven fame, mostly because magic is allowed. Hand to hand (or tooth to claw), no guns? That's where Wolf shines (and snarls, and bites). It won't be pretty, but I think he'd get the job done.

2) +1 for Kellan, much as it pains me to say it. Both of them have some plot armor, sure, but she's still got her magic and has the "Sam tends to hesitate in a fight sometimes" factor going and last I recall her adept boyfriend, the ex-Ancient (who was still somehow a character I'm not fond of, despite fitting all my favorite cliches) was teaching her how to fight.

3) Neil the Ork Barbarian, hands down. It's "not a firefight," according to the rules, and "not a firefight" is where Neil shines (and snarls, and bites). Of course, really, it just comes down to whose movie it is...

4) Lofwyr. Unless I'm totally misremembering, it's been pretty heavily insinuated that he's the most physically (not just financially) powerful of the Greats. Ghostwalker is better with spirits, Hestaby can out-cast him, Dunkie was better at playing with his food...but I seem to recall Lofwyr always being described as just brawny, even compared to other Greats. In this sort of physical match, I think he'd pull a win. But whoooo, boy, would I want to be watching from far, far, away.

[PeteThe1]

Knight Vs. Villiers I would pay to see.

Knight would get it, however. Military Experience and Training...

Yeah but he left the military 40 years ago. And he was Air Force, known more for their brains over brawn. I agree I'd bet on Knight as well but there's just something extra vicious about Villiers that makes me think it wouldn't be quite so easy. Knight made his fortune by being brilliant and making the right friends. Villiers made his by murdering his first set of business partners (Matrix Systems) and sabotaging his second set (Fuchi). Spider-sense says Knight would have to work for it. Maybe Miles Lanier distracts the ref while Villiers gets in a low blow?

Gingerbread Crew vs Wrecking Crew?

[CanRay]

1) Yeah, my bet too.

2) Kellan's boyfriend taught her so well that she RIPPED HIS ARMS OFF.

3) Actually, they'll probably fight to a draw, then Ninjas, then power of friendship.

4) We haven't seen enough of Aden to know about him/her abilities. Also, remember: Metahuman form. Draconic strength doesn't necessarily transfer over.

[Saint Hallow]

Wolf (From "Wolf and Raven") Vs. Wolf (From "Lone Wolf").

Kellan Colt Vs. Sam "Twist" Verner.

Neil The Ork Barbarian Vs. Slade The Sniper.

Lofwyr Vs. Aden. (Both in Metahuman Form), with Ghostwalker (*NOT* In Metahuman form) or the Ancestor Spirit of Mohammad Ali refereeing. (Honestly, the guy will still stare you down today, in his current physical condition, and claim he's still the best, and you know he. Means. Every. Word.).

1. Wolf would go all hairy & kick the crap outta the undercover guy.

2. Which version of "Twist" are we talking here? Cause he won't kill, doesn't mean he won't get violent. Same Verner proved how effective Narcojet can be. In a fistfight, Colt would go for a nut shot, but Verner banged Sally Tsung so his junk has gone through some tough stuff.

3. Neil... cause classics should always win. Plus, this is a fistfight.

4. Hmm... need to think on this.

[Critias]

2) Kellan's boyfriend taught her so well that she RIPPED HIS ARMS OFF.

Heh, really? Maybe I should've made myself start (and finish) that third book. At least it sounds like stuff happened in it.

[CanRay]

It's in Street Legends, actually. Stuff still didn't happen in the trilogy.

I feel like I missed the interesting stuff of her story now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

On the flipside, I hate the character less now. Say what you will about CGL, they did that better than WizKids.

[Critias]

Ah. Hers wasn't one of the chapters I helped proof for SL, and I've been scrambling so much post-GenCon I still haven't been able to sit down and just read it, chapter to chapter, to enjoy (instead of as work).

It still amazes me, more than anything else about her series of books (the pair I read, at least), how it is they managed to make a swaggering, street-tough, adept of an Ancients member that I didn't immediately like. I mean, if they'd made him an Urban Brawler, too, maybe they would've touched on one more of my, y'know, Shadowrun favorite things...but I still scratch my head over it. The guy should've been so right up my alley, he single-handedly could've made me like the series. But it someone still didn't work.

[CanRay]

If it wasn't for her being in Street Legends, I'd suggest the whole trilogy be forgotten completely. Or treated like "Dead Air", and "It was all a Simsense flick.".

[Neurosis]

We're going bare-knuckle no magic though, so I'd have to bet on Aden. Lofwyr is probably smarter, more magically powerful, and certainly more ruthless and likely to cheat (get a big folding chair maybe), but if we kept it fair Aden seems more flat-out brutal. Plus sirrushes are a little faster than western dragons, and speed kills.

How about Damien Knight vs Richard Villiers?

Here's my take. Damien Knight could punch Richard Villiers' face in half without breaking a sweat.

Damien Knight is something that Villiers is not and had never been; a soldier, through and through. His company is more WarLike than NeoNET. And when the shit has hit the fan, Villiers has always had Miles Lanier to get his back. Richard Villiers is basically Michael Douglas from Wall Street; Damien Knight is basically Tony Stark. I give this one to Damien Knight.

I agree I'd bet on Knight as well but there's just something extra vicious about Villiers that makes me think it wouldn't be quite so easy

I definitely think that Villiers would fight dirty, but I think that Knight would fight harder and better. (Knight vs. Lanier is a completely different contest, and one I'd cede to Lanier.)

But what do the rest of you think? I made a poll.

4) Lofwyr. Unless I'm totally misremembering, it's been pretty heavily insinuated that he's the most physically (not just financially) powerful of the Greats. Ghostwalker is better with spirits, Hestaby can out-cast him, Dunkie was better at playing with his food...but I seem to recall Lofwyr always being described as just brawny, even compared to other Greats. In this sort of physical match, I think he'd pull a win. But whoooo, boy, would I want to be watching from far, far, away.

I love the idea that Lofwyr is just brolic.

4) We haven't seen enough of Aden to know about him/her abilities. Also, remember: Metahuman form. Draconic strength doesn't necessarily transfer over.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of fluff indicates it does.

[Critias]

A lot of that just comes down to which edition we're talking (in terms of stats carrying over to various metahuman forms), and on what fluff we're reading. Some folks like the crazy, almost comic-book type, images of a "normal" looking metahuman with a 30+ strength. Some don't. It depends on how magical you want them to be, how impressive and inhuman, and ultimately how "realistic" a game world you want.

And, even if full draconic strength doesn't transfer over, there's a precedent (drakes, for instance) that shows that draconic stats are still based, somewhat, on metahuman stats (like how drakes and shifters just applied modifiers to their metahuman stats to get their other-form stats). So there's a shaky fluff/rule precedent for the opposite perhaps also being true. If Lofwyr is substantially stronger in "true" form as a big-ass dragon, it may follow suit that even diminished into metahuman form, his body is still more powerful, broad-shouldered, whatever, than that of another dragon.

Again, just kind of depends on the edition and the fluff you choose to read.

[Angelone]

The answer is whoever has the best handlebar mustache, so for every fight it would be Theodore Roosevelt.

Knight vs Villiers is my two favorite npcs squaring off.

[Neurosis]

Still taking suggestions for the next poll.

[PeteThe1]

Who would be a good match for Dirk Montgomery?

[Nath]

Damien Knight vs. Richard Villiers : Definitively Knight, because of his past experience. His early career was in "only" the Air Force, but then he joined Echo Mirage Team Two, which I guess involved a tad harsh, physical as much as intellectual selection process. Remember Echo Mirage original team utterly failed, and four member of Team Two died in their first attempt to deal with the virus.
I can see only one thing possibly changing the outcome in Villiers favor. If you think Villiers is accustomed to playing dirty, now try threatening his ex-wife Samantha Villiers in front of him.

[CanRay]

Still taking suggestions for the next poll.

I got the longest, drawn-out, smack down fistfight possible!

Thomas Roxborough versus Peg the Decker!