[X] My Assistant

[Seerow]

Suoq's gunbunny example has AGI 9 and skill 6, so this optional rule would let him go up to 30 dice. There is a good reason this is only an optional rule: it was never tested before printing, or they would have seen that its completely fails at its intended goal.

You missed the "natural" before attribute. His natural attribute is 5, because he's using toner 4. So that gives you 5+6=11*2=22 maximum dice pool.

[Traul]

OK, my bad. So that's 22 dice at chargen, 24 once he raises his AGI to 6. Then you can add Exceptional Attribute, Genetic Optimization, Metagenetic Improvement, Aptitude, a better metatype to begin with,... I don't think you can reach 30 dice without some of those anyway. The only builds that are hurt by this cap optional rule are the pornomancer and some pointless Athletics gimmicks.

[CanRay]

Want to make a Powerful character?

Backstory.

Doesn't matter what the dice pool is if the person has the history and reputation that makes no one ever want to mess with them at all.

...

Or they have a really big P2.0.

[Seerow]

OK, my bad. So that's 22 dice at chargen, 24 once he raises his AGI to 6. Then you can add Exceptional Attribute, Genetic Optimization, Metagenetic Improvement, Aptitude, a better metatype to begin with,... I don't think you can reach 30 dice without some of those anyway. The only builds that are hurt by this cap optional rule are the pornomancer and some pointless Athletics gimmicks.

Picking those up post char gen, you're talking about hundreds of karma, and I'd argue investing in other things is the more sound investment. 19-22 dice is more than enough for most situations. Also all of the qualities you listed go over the cap for positive qualities, you have to drop either exceptional attribute or aptitude. Exceptional Attribute allows you to get 10(15) agility, while Aptitude gets you 1 less die (at a mere 9(13) agi, but 7 skill), saves you the need to get a more expensive bioware, and is a bit cheaper on the bp side of things.

I was just pointing out that the typical out of the box max agi max skill character doesn't get anywhere near 30 dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A battle strategy that costs you your first action every combat is a hefty drawback. Also, your initiative while not possessed is like 7. And you have 2 body and 2 reaction, so people who go first have a very good chance of blowing you away while you are charging up Super Saiyan Mode.

And lets not forget that the Possession Spirit STILL has to roll to perform the possession, even against a willing target. It takes time for the possession to take. Or am I wrong on this?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sat down and played with the math. Fatal in 2 shots to the generalist if is no edge and no full dodge is used.
If the attacker does not use edge and the defender uses either edge, full dodge, or is wearing more than everyday armor*, then there tends to be some stun damage.
With edge and full dodge by the defender, the attacker is not likely to hit the generalist unless he also uses edge.

*6/4 (pick one)+ 4/1 (ffba half)+ 0/2 (ppp) & 4 body to carry it

I would not consider 10/7 an Everyday level of Armor. But that is just me, I guess. Especially since a Body of 4 is not a given in the first place.

[Traul]

Picking those up post char gen, you're talking about hundreds of karma, and I'd argue investing in other things is the more sound investment. 19-22 dice is more than enough for most situations.

I agree, but 19-22 dice already seem too much for Infornography. I was just pointing out that one that it is nowhere near the maximum, even with the retarded cap rule.

[Angelone]

The blood mage from DotA is powerful as is Samerial or however you spell his name from the same series. I haven't gotten ahold of street legends yet so I can't use any of them as an example.

[Traul]

Want to make a Powerful character?

Backstory.

Doesn't matter what the dice pool is if the person has the history and reputation that makes no one ever want to mess with them at all.

...

Or they have a really big P2.0.

It goes both ways: reputation also attracts kids who want to make a name for themselves.

[suoq]

For fits and giggles I created a "generic" orc in Chummer. The character is built using 400 BP, no negative qualities (allowing players to add personality and power). I went with cyberware since I felt that was easier for new players than magic and the character isn't particularly optimized. No skills are above a 4. The private commlink would be better as a Battle Buddy Basic (but I wanted to avoid WAR and keep to the core books) and probably has more and better common programs than necessary. Comes with a bike for travel, a tacsoft to insure the team has one and to keep from having to slave to another player. The commlink is well enough protected that the team could probably slave to him without issue.

My goal with this was to create a generic, semi-weak character. He's basically self-sufficient and can be made more competent or specialized by simply buying up various skills. That being said, he's still going to eat any member of an "8-12 dice pool" for breakfast. There's no special tricks here or complexities. Any new player sitting at your table for the first time should be able to run him with no modifications or you can tweak him for a new player with some negative qualities and additional abilities.

http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/generic.htm

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For fits and giggles I created a "generic" orc in Chummer. The character is built using 400 BP, no negative qualities (allowing players to add personality and power). I went with cyberware since I felt that was easier for new players than magic and the character isn't particularly optimized. No skills are above a 4. The private commlink would be better as a Battle Buddy Basic (but I wanted to avoid WAR and keep to the core books) and probably has more and better common programs than necessary. Comes with a bike for travel, a tacsoft to insure the team has one and to keep from having to slave to another player. The commlink is well enough protected that the team could probably slave to him without issue.

My goal with this was to create a generic, semi-weak character. He's basically self-sufficient and can be made more competent or specialized by simply buying up various skills. That being said, he's still going to eat any member of an "8-12 dice pool" for breakfast. There's no special tricks here or complexities. Any new player sitting at your table for the first time should be able to run him with no modifications or you can tweak him for a new player with some negative qualities and additional abilities.

http://fairlygoodpractices.com/shadowrun/generic.htm

Very Nice... Are you using a Program to generate the Sheet? If so, which Porgram?

[suoq]

Very Nice... Are you using a Program to generate the Sheet? If so, which Porgram?

Chummer has the ability to save as HTML in it's print character sheet function as well as the ability to build new sheet formats using xsl. I thought it was a nicely clever feature, using xsl & html to generate character sheets.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Chummer has the ability to save as HTML in it's print character sheet function as well as the ability to build new sheet formats using xsl. I thought it was a nicely clever feature, using xsl & html to generate character sheets.

Indeed... I like it. I might have to look into Chummer. I generally use a Word Document. But then again, I tend to generate a massive character file as well. My current Hacker (A Cyberlogician) is now running at about 25 pages or so. My mage is at 12. So maybe it is not for me. Will check it out, though. Thanks.

[Bull]

*facepalm*

This will only end in blood and tears.

You're a masochist, Devon. Really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

[Glyph]

A pool of 19 dice after chargen isn't min/maxing or powergaming?
In one of the books (forgot which one) it is suggested to cap pools at 20.

... which would suggest that you're not really min/maxing or powergaming until you get past 20 (or 2 x your natural Attribute + skill).

Shadowrun is a game with strong transhumanistic themes, where magic and technology can create superhumans. And you play shadowrunners, spys and saboteurs who do dirty, dangerous jobs for a living - these aren't first-level characters, they are pros.

All of these things that create powerful characters are design features. Characters are supposed to be powerful. Generally, there is a point where it starts being counterproductive to min/max, but the examples people gave you are of characters who have plenty of room for other skills and abilities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*facepalm*

This will only end in blood and tears.

You're a masochist, Devon. Really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

Devon? *looks around*
Are you talking to Me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

I'm slightly surprised by that...These examples aren't min-maxing or power gaming. They aren't corner cases. They're old standby staples.

Yeah, but so what? If their group was having fun and still got the game world to work that way, it's not like they're hurting anything. There's no "wrong" way to play. If they had a good time with a team of well-rounded generalists slinging 8-10 dice most of the time instead of 16-20, what's the harm in it?

[CanadianWolverin...]

I disagree with that.

For a human, Attribute 3-4 + Skill 2-3 is normal for a young professional. Add metatype (+1 or so) and specialization (+2), and some sort of equipment-based bonus like smartlink or a basic implant, for +2 to +4. Often you'll have a Shop or Kit, which is another +2 to +4.

Dice pools are built from a lot of things, and Attribute+Skill is roughly half of it, so saying "6 is normal" is only true for the Attribute+Skill part.

I'm fine with you disagreeing with that. I am just saying that the extra stuff you tossed into that dice pool for whatever that test is, IMHO that means that character is above average then and thus powerful. All you and many others here seem to be hung up on is "But how powerful?" The OP wasn't asking what is the best of the best EVAR, just what is powerful.

I consider above average according to one's setting to be powerful. If your GM is populating your world with NPCs who have AVERAGE (in other [many] words, some NPCs have less, some have more, add them together, divide by the number of NPCs = Average) dice pools of 8, 10, 12, 15, or whatever rather than 6, then you need something higher than that average to be powerful, IMHO. Its all relative, especially with the many different ways people GM, I tend towards having an average of 6, non-augmented human poor schlubs living in a dyspotian setting.

[Socinus]

@Socinus

Sorry, but there is always the bigger stick. Thats not a counter. What you describe is the bigger stick.
Thats like going: A mage possessed by a force 5 spirit is countered by a mage possessed by a force 7 spirit.

It's not necessarily a bigger stick, it's just knowing where to break a particular stick.

And all of this would not work an the mage I brought up.
The bullets would have a base DV of 1 or maybe 2. Hardended Armor takes care of that. A burning building? What a DV has a such "fire"? 4 ? The Hardend Armor takes care of that.
Shotguns? I guess the reaction test takes care of that.

A couple of bullets would have a DV of 1 or 2, but and entire trunk full getting set off at the same time? That's a pretty serious explosion with a lot of shrapnel.

Yes armor mods can take care of some fire damage, but they aren't designed to handle a six story tall inferno.

Stick a couple of grenades under the shotguns so if he does make the Reaction test, he'll set the grenades off by moving the apparatus.

But all right lets put it to a test:
You get the avarage human mage 2 in all physical, 5 in drain and 3-4 in the rest of the attributes mage possessed with a force 7 spirit(guardian). Having a counterspelling of 6 (+2 Mentor spirit, +2 spec Combat spells +shielding) with 4 Initiations (shielding, Auramasking advanced, channeling), lets give him magic 6
Thats easy to build with 750 Karma.

Hit him with a GMC Bulldog going full tilt. He'll have to deal with 32 damage.

Or else put together a car bomb and set it off when he walks past. You can put together bombs that do insane amounts of damage relatively easily.

Get a couple of gas and splash grenades together and pack them with K-10, Cyanide, KE IV, and Ringu.

[Glyph]

Its all relative, especially with the many different ways people GM, I tend towards having an average of 6, non-augmented human poor schlubs living in a dyspotian setting.

A dice pool of 6 for combat is actually above average for your average corporate drone or Barrens dweller. Humanis Policlub goons have dice pools of 3, and presumably this still allows them to beat up on people (although this is also typically a whole gang of them against one or two luckless metahumans).

But the dice pool of the average Joe doesn't really factor in to how comparatively powerful shadowrunners are, because they don't do shadowruns against the average Joe. They fight everything from security grunts, to the much tougher reinforcements that show up loaded for troll, to paracritters, to corporate expediters and underworld enforcers, and the list goes on and on.

Your standard security grunt, the first line of defense whose only purpose is to keep intruders pinned down while reinforcements show up, has a dice pool of 6, except that their smartguns add 2 more dice. So even at the low end, you're looking at 8 dice. This is not average - this is the low end. From there, they keep getting tougher.

Also keep in mind that every three dice is about one hit, on average, and that shadowrunners need to be better than their average opponents to successfully do their jobs. Not only that, but shadowrunners will usually be outnumbered, will often have fatigue or wound penalties, and will usually be fighting on the enemy's home ground.

So while the definition of power may vary from campaign to campaign, I would define it higher than merely above average. The average shadowrunner should be significantly above what everyone else considers average.

Of course, that's the default shadowrunner who does shadowruns. If it is a campaign of punks from the Barrens trying to survive, that might change the equations greatly.

[suoq]

Yeah, but so what? If their group was having fun and still got the game world to work that way, it's not like they're hurting anything. There's no "wrong" way to play. If they had a good time with a team of well-rounded generalists slinging 8-10 dice most of the time instead of 16-20, what's the harm in it?

I don't believe I said there was any harm. I said I was surprised. To be at 9 dice is a 4 skill, human softcap stat, nothing else, no cyberware, adept powers, etc. Once you add +4 (a tacnet and a smartlink) you're already at 13 dice, past their table max. I'm not sure I can create a collection of archtypes that can stay in the 8-12 range for their specialty with 400 BP.

I'd be interested in seeing some of these characters, to understand what I'm missing. Are they using 300 BP or a low Karmagen value? Is it a ganger campaign? There's a lot I simply don't know and I'm unable to guess how that campaign works.

[Neurosis]

... which would suggest that you're not really min/maxing or powergaming until you get past 20 (or 2 x your natural Attribute + skill).

Shadowrun is a game with strong transhumanistic themes, where magic and technology can create superhumans. And you play shadowrunners, spys and saboteurs who do dirty, dangerous jobs for a living - these aren't first-level characters, they are pros.

All of these things that create powerful characters are design features. Characters are supposed to be powerful. Generally, there is a point where it starts being counterproductive to min/max, but the examples people gave you are of characters who have plenty of room for other skills and abilities.

Are you saying that anything under 20 Dice is not powerful?

A pool of 19 dice after chargen isn't min/maxing or powergaming?
In one of the books (forgot which one) it is suggested to cap pools at 20.

It's not even trying. There is still room for genetic enhancements, reflex recorders, adept improved ability,... A human sammy can get 19 dice on his main firemarm using the core book only (use Reflex Recorders instead of Muscle Toner 4).

To be clear, I am not asking if 17 Dice, 19 Dice, whatever is min/maxing or powergaming. I am asking if it is 'powerful'. I am asking if it is enough for the average character to be worried about it coming at him, enough for the average player to feel confident that they are making a very deadly attack, and so on.

Sat down and played with the math. Fatal in 2 shots to the generalist if is no edge and no full dodge is used.
If the attacker does not use edge and the defender uses either edge, full dodge, or is wearing more than everyday armor*, then there tends to be some stun damage.
With edge and full dodge by the defender, the attacker is not likely to hit the generalist unless he also uses edge.

*6/4 (pick one)+ 4/1 (ffba half)+ 0/2 (ppp) & 4 body to carry it

The above (17 Dice, 12P -2 AP) could also be 17 dice with a base damage of 7P -2AP and -5 to Defense, or 14 dice with a base damage of 7P -2AP and -9 to Defense, or 14 Dice with a base damage of 16P -2AP.

What I'm trying to get at is, is that a good attack. Is that the kind of thing a 'good' street samurai with his heavy gear going all out in a situation where subtlety doesn't matter should be rolling?

Or is it 'overkill' or 'munchkined'?

Or is it 'inadequate'?

That's really where I want to start here. This has already become a wide-ranging discussion with lots of fascinating dialectics going on but I really am looking for an answer to this question. 'Is this 'bad enough', like UmaroVI's trog?'

Oh and if other stats have to be brought in let's assume this is a situation where either neither side is using Edge or both are; if both are, then both are using it after the fact for more hits, rather than pre-Edging. (If only because, at my table that is somewhat more common, which I know is a pretty arbitrary reason but it's kind of an arbitrary question to begin with.

The OP wasn't asking what is the best of the best EVAR, just what is powerful.

This is very true. Would it be alright if I posted my rubric and see if people agree or disagree with it? All of this assumes a starting character built with 400BP or one within 50-100 Karma of starting. The boundaries between tiers are not hard and fast. I've used Shadowrunner examples, not mook examples, for now.

25+ DICE: There are various and sundry exceptions, but at this level I may become concerned that the player of the character with this dice pool is a jerk, or that the character is terrible at everything else.
20-24 DICE: Superlatively and enormously powerful. PCs really should not be rolling this kind of dice pool often. ULTRA POWERFUL.
15-19 DICE: Extremely competent and extremely dangerous. Above average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. POWERFUL.
12-14 DICE: Very, very, very competent. Verging on the superhuman. Average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. CAN'T COMPLAIN.
10-11 DICE: Far above average, which is to say, average for a Shadowrunner in their secondary shtick, or below average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. NOT TOO SHABBY.
6-9 DICE: Average for a Shadowrunner in their 'everything else'. This is the minimum level a runner should be at at anything that might matter. HALF DECENT.
1-5 DICE: Average for a normal person, which is to say bad for a Shadowrunner. BAD.

If you disagree, explain what parts you disagree with and why.

[whatevs]

In my Shadowrun 4 group, 8 dice were a lot and the biggest dicepool had 12 dice.

I prefer games that have generally have 10 dice being passable at something, 12 dice as being good at something and 14 dice being really good at something.

Mileage varies though. Example: 12 for a Face to Disguise can be more than enough, because it's opposed with perception, and npc's are typically built to have just enough to get by. 12 dice to shoot with a street sam may be only passable because npc's are typically built with a fair amount of dice in dodge and reaction.

The trick is to id the range based on activity to determine 'powerful'.

[suoq]

Is that the kind of thing a 'good' street samurai with his heavy gear going all out in a situation where subtlety doesn't matter should be rolling?

It's hard to tell. If the generic character (above) was firing a smartlinked LAW rocket instead of an Ingram, he'd be (9 agil, 4 skill, 2 smartlink, 2 tacnet) doing exactly the same as your street sam. The only real cost would be the skill and another BP in nuyen. 15 BP of negative qualities would buy a skill of 3, a specialty, and the gun and ammo (so, slightly better than your street sam).

I'd say it's reasonable for a starting character. Other than the pinkish mohawk look of the LAW rifle on a starting character, I don't see anything special about it. Personally, I prefer subtle, but that's just me. It certainly doesn't seem overpowered (though it's definately not underpowered).

That being said, I'd expect "disproportionate response" against anyone using a LAW rifle in an area where security is contracted out.


------------

This post reminds me of an old Grimjack comic where Gordon is standing in the street with a Bazooka....

[Neurosis]

Mileage varies though. Example: 12 for a Face to Disguise can be more than enough, because it's opposed with perception, and npc's are typically built to have just enough to get by. 12 dice to shoot with a street sam may be only passable because npc's are typically built with a fair amount of dice in dodge and reaction.

Remember that at the point when you are shooting someone and they are dodging at a bare minimum you have cost them an action which is kind of a big deal. Hitting them on top of that just adds insult to injury.

*facepalm*

This will only end in blood and tears.

You're a masochist, Devon. Really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bull

This has been perfectly civil so far. *knockwood*.

It's hard to tell. If the generic character (above) was firing a smartlinked LAW rocket instead of an Ingram, he'd be doing the same thing. (9 agil, 4 skill, 2 smartlink, 2 tacnet) he'd be doing exactly the same as your street sam. The only real cost would be the skill and another BP in nuyen. 15 BP of negative qualities would buy a skill of 3, a specialty, and the gun and ammo (so, slightly better).

I'd say it's reasonable for a starting character but other than the pinkish mohawk look of the LAW rifle on a starting character, I don't see anything special about it. Personally, I prefer subtle, but that's just me. It certainly doesn't seem overpowered (though it's definately not underpowered).

That being said, I'd expect "disproportionate response" against anyone using a LAW rifle in an area where security is contracted out.

It's not an Ingram, actually it's an FN-HAR with EX-EX modded for 6 points of Recoil Compensation. (Yes, Dumpshock, I know that 'assault rifle X' is technically more optimal than an FN-HAR. Shh your pie hole.)

This character by the way has 9 Agi, 5(6) Skill, and 2 Smartlink. If he was connected a Rating 2 Tacnet, he'd be attacking at 19 Dice, but I assumed he was flying solo for this one. None of this matters, of course; it's just an arbitrary benchmark. It is the point at which I personally say, 'if this is not good enough for you, I do not feel like we have been playing the same game all these years'. I'm not saying it is the best, just that I hope that EVERYONE from UmaroVI down to the guy who said that a dicepool of 6 should be average can agree that it is 'good enough'.

Anyway, thank you for your answer. : )