[X] My Assistant

[suoq]

25+ DICE: There are various and sundry exceptions, but at this level I may become concerned that the player of the character with this dice pool is a jerk, or that the character is terrible at everything else.
20-24 DICE: Superlatively and enormously powerful. PCs really should not be rolling this kind of dice pool often. ULTRA POWERFUL.
15-19 DICE: Extremely competent and extremely dangerous. Above average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. POWERFUL.
12-14 DICE: Very, very, very competent. Verging on the superhuman. Average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. CAN'T COMPLAIN.
10-11 DICE: Far above average, which is to say, average for a Shadowrunner in their secondary shtick, or below average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. NOT TOO SHABBY.
6-9 DICE: Average for a Shadowrunner in their 'everything else'. This is the minimum level a runner should be at at anything that might matter. HALF DECENT.
1-5 DICE: Average for a normal person, which is to say bad for a Shadowrunner. BAD.

If you disagree, explain what parts you disagree with and why.

Given that different roles have different bell curves (It's really easy to be on the top end on a face. It's incredibly difficult to be on the top end as a hacker without piracy), here's my old dice pools.

For a home game, I'd go the Yerameyahu way and make sure everyone (players and GM) understands how assisting works.

One way I like to think about dice (and obviously open to debate).
21 dice = Go away. I can do this by myself.
18 dice = Can someone hold my tools?
15 dice = I could use some backup on this one.
12 dice = I can back you up on that.
9 dice = I can hold your tools.
6 dice = I think I can, I think I can.
3 dice = you're kidding me right? I'm color blind and you're telling me to cut the red wire?

I don't see the need for 18 or 21 dice in a home game. 15 for the character's focus, a couple 12s and some 9s and your character should be busy most of the game while getting their job done.

--------------

Note for above. By "generic character", I meant the one I posted from Chummer, not the one you started the thread with.

Note #2. The guy who can "hold your tools" should be able to add 3 dice (assisting) to the guy who is asking someone to hold his tools, taking him up to 21 dice, same as the top level. Backup (15) + Backup (12) get 19 dice between them.

[Neurosis]

Seems like we're matching up pretty closely, then. (Also, amusing captions. Although I think 'I can hold your tools' for 9 dice is a bit unfair.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Would it be alright if I posted my rubric and see if people agree or disagree with it? All of this assumes a starting character built with 400BP or one within 50-100 Karma of starting. The boundaries between tiers are not hard and fast. I've used Shadowrunner examples, not mook examples, for now.

25+ DICE: There are various and sundry exceptions, but at this level I may become concerned that the player of the character with this dice pool is a jerk, or that the character is terrible at everything else.
20-24 DICE: Superlatively and enormously powerful. PCs really should not be rolling this kind of dice pool often. ULTRA POWERFUL.
15-19 DICE: Extremely competent and extremely dangerous. Above average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. POWERFUL.
12-14 DICE: Very, very, very competent. Verging on the superhuman. Average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. CAN'T COMPLAIN.
10-11 DICE: Far above average, which is to say, average for a Shadowrunner in their secondary shtick, or below average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. NOT TOO SHABBY.
6-9 DICE: Average for a Shadowrunner in their 'everything else'. This is the minimum level a runner should be at at anything that might matter. HALF DECENT.
1-5 DICE: Average for a normal person, which is to say bad for a Shadowrunner. BAD.

I can agree with your benchmarks here. Not too bad. I might change a point here or there, but otherwise, I like it.

[Bull]

Devon? *looks around*
Are you talking to Me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Check Neurosis' .sig. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Infornography]

25+ DICE: There are various and sundry exceptions, but at this level I may become concerned that the player of the character with this dice pool is a jerk, or that the character is terrible at everything else.
20-24 DICE: Superlatively and enormously powerful. PCs really should not be rolling this kind of dice pool often. ULTRA POWERFUL.
15-19 DICE: Extremely competent and extremely dangerous. Above average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. POWERFUL.
12-14 DICE: Very, very, very competent. Verging on the superhuman. Average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. CAN'T COMPLAIN.
10-11 DICE: Far above average, which is to say, average for a Shadowrunner in their secondary shtick, or below average for a Shadowrunner in their primary shtick. NOT TOO SHABBY.
6-9 DICE: Average for a Shadowrunner in their 'everything else'. This is the minimum level a runner should be at at anything that might matter. HALF DECENT.
1-5 DICE: Average for a normal person, which is to say bad for a Shadowrunner. BAD.

I agree. Personally I'd lower the whole thing by two, but then again we've been playing with 300-350BP ...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Check Neurosis' .sig. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, I figured after I posted... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
No worries...

[Angelone]

Powerful is being able to survive DotA and Ghost Cartels.

[Mäx]

I was just pointing out that the typical out of the box max agi max skill character doesn't get anywhere near 30 dice.

Maybe not but an atypical character with really maxed Agility does get exactly 30 dice(as long as you have 2 team mates for tacnet usage)

[Seerow]

Maybe not but an atypical character with really maxed Agility does get exactly 30 dice(as long as you have 2 team mates for tacnet usage)

An atypical character can get as high as 10 unaugmented agility and 6 skill, for up to 32 dice. (if you can go over quality cap post char generation you can get that as high as 34). That was never really the point.

[Neurosis]

Powerful is being able to survive DotA and Ghost Cartels.

Funny you mention that, I'm actually running Ghost Cartels as a low-powered street level campaign; I toned down all of the opposition accordingly, except for the parts where the PCs are supposed to lose/run.

DotA is...really ridiculous. I have been not just surviving but thriving whilst PCing through it, but I think that's because I have a lenient GM, not a powerful PC.

An atypical character can get as high as 10 unaugmented agility and 6 skill, for up to 32 dice. (if you can go over quality cap post char generation you can get that as high as 34). That was never really the point.

It sure isn't.

[Glyph]

Are you saying that anything under 20 Dice is not powerful?

No, just that it is usually not min-maxed or powergaming, since you can get there with a few logical choices, rather than any convoluted rules-raping.

Power level is very subjective, but overall, your original example would be "bad enough" for most campaigns.

I liked your dice examples. It's good to have something like that as a baseline for people to agree or disagree with. Here are my thoughts on those dice pools:

25+ DICE: Most characters rolling this many dice will be hyper-specialists, who might still be viable builds, but are not likely to be more than functional outside of their main specialty, and more often than not, have made too many sacrifices in other areas to get to this point. There are a few dice pools, such as social skills and gymnastics, can reach this level more easily because they have lots of potential positive modifiers.

20-24 DICE: Specialist level dice pools. Faces who combine several dice pool boosters, street samurai using a chosen ranged weapon with a specialization. Rarer outside of social and combat dice rolls. Mages, close combat specialists and such who reach this level can be compared to the hyperspecialists above. Specialists generally do not suffer nearly as much as hyper-specialists, when it comes to being limited in other areas.

15-19 DICE: Competent and capable for combat and social skills, extremely good for nearly anything else.

12-14 DICE: Still effective for a face (their dice pool to be good at their job starts out lower, even though it can usually go higher, compared to combat skills). Good combat ability for someone's secondary specialty, slightly weak (but still functional) for someone's primary specialty, at least against weaker opposition such as typical security grunts. For dice pools without a lot of dice pool modifiers, this is actually pretty strong.

10-11 DICE: This is usually where you get secondary specialties that can still be called specialties, like the street samurai who can also drive or sneak.

6-9 DICE: Tertiary skills, either that or defaulting in areas that the character has superhuman Attributes in.

1-5 DICE: Not a reliable skill (or default). Generally something that is not part of the character's role as a shadowrunner (etiquette for the troll tank, data search for the shaman, etc.). At the very lowest end, a genuine weakness. At the 3-5 range, it is something the character is at least not completely clueless about. In other words, the troll with Charisma: 2 and the influence skill group at 1 should not try to fast-talk his way past the bouncer, but at least he won't pick his nose during the meet with the Johnson.

[Neurosis]

So generally speaking, it seems like your expectations are 1-4 dice higher than mine, which is fine. That's a totally acceptable standard deviation.

I would say that 12-14 (especially 14) Dice is quite strong for a combat skill, whereas you would call it slightly weak. I guess that's our main point of disagreement.

[Bull]

Just to throw in my own two ¥... Powerful is relative. I scale my encounters based around the players. And if 5 players at my table want to play characters with 12-14 dice, and one player insists that he needs 22+ dice to be effective, guess who's going to get nerfed down? Fun needs to be had by everyone, not just one player.

Bull

[CanRay]

*Sniffs* AW MAN! BULL! Light a match!

DAMN That's powerful!

[Traul]

Just to throw in my own two ¥... Powerful is relative. I scale my encounters based around the players. And if 5 players at my table want to play characters with 12-14 dice, and one player insists that he needs 22+ dice to be effective, guess who's going to get nerfed down? Fun needs to be had by everyone, not just one player.

Bull

Nerfing might not even be called for. Unbalanced power levels are not a problem as long as there is no competition between players. If the min-maxer is the hacker and nobody else wants to deal with hacking, you can just leave him be.

[Bull]

Nerfing might not even be called for. Unbalanced power levels are not a problem as long as there is no competition between players. If the min-maxer is the hacker and nobody else wants to deal with hacking, you can just leave him be.

Agreed. though my experiences say that usually characters that need and insist on min-maxing their characters that way, especially if he knows the rest of the players are at a more moderate level of power, is also usually a spotlight and game hog.

If everyones having fun though? Yeah. then it's fine.

[Irion]

Guys, you can't but one dicepool to any skill.
Take first aid for example:
You get an easy+6 simply due to the medkit. Logic can also be boosted quite easy.
Or you look at the pornomancer beeing able to get up to 40 dices easy.
On the other hand take a skill like diving or survival. Linked to "hard to augment" attributes, no real out of the box boni etc.

Thats a general problem in SR.
The attribute + Skill dice pool is quite small, compared to the dices you may stick into it.
How much dice this can be does not follow any line. (This is why I like the optional rule, that the dice pool is not to exceed (natural attribut+ skill)*2.
It gives you a frame to work with.

[Glyph]

Exactly. That's why my look at the dice pools differentiated between types of skills - 12 dice for pistols is weaksauce because there are ways that you can boost the Attribute, the skill, and the modifiers. 12 dice for survival, on the other hand, is Crocodile frikkin' Dundee.

[suoq]

How much dice this can be does not follow any line.

But the obvious does not prevent conversation. We can accept that it's there and still talk as if it's not and understand each other. Metaphors and examples don't have to be perfect, they just have to be understood by people willing to work with metaphors and examples.

Yes, the first aid kit 6 provides an incredibly easy 12 dice + logic. That doesn't change the view of how many dice is "powerful". It just means "powerful" in this one particular area is easy to get. Likewise "powerful" in survival is close to impossible to get UNLESS everyone works together and assists. In a similar vein, the face is cheap dice compared to the hacker but that doesn't change the inherent usefulness of the dice pool. A well built face doesn't need an assist. A hacker who (through piracy or insane amounts of cash) has an equivalent pool probably already has that assist in the form of an agent (mook) with an EW autosoft.

If you ignore the assist rules, then having separate scales may be a necessary idea, but keeping the assist rules in mind, one single table still works for anyone willing to use it.

[Seerow]

Yes, the first aid kit 6 provides an incredibly easy 12 dice + logic.

Huh, that's not how I read Medkits at all.

The capabilities of modern medkits (p. 337) and autodoc drones (p. 350) rival those of trained paramedics. They can serve as a valuable aid to a medtech’s diagnoses or applied healing, or they can simply be hooked up to the patient and set to apply medical care automatically.If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating. If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her skill. If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device’s rating for any tests. Note that medkits and autodocs can be accessed and controlled remotely via the Matrix/wireless link.

So you have 3 scenarios:

Medkit 6 left unattended: 6 dice (rating)
Medkit 6 used by someone untrained: Logic+6 (You receive the attribute and the device rating in place of skill, you don't get the extra +6 bonus at this point because you are using the medkit to replace skill)
Medkit 6 used by someone trained: Logic+First Aid+ 6 (Here since you are trained, you get your normal check with the device's rating as a bonus)


The only way you're getting logic + 12 is if you have First Aid skill all the way up to 12. The benefit of being able to use the medkit as a skill rather than a dice pool modifier is you don't take the penalty for defaulting.

[Traul]

The pools are different and the thresholds to reach are also different. Dumb example: you need a higher dice pool in close combat than in firearms because the melee defense is higher. To go back to the First Aid example, 12 dice are easy to reach but 12 dice can hardly be called powerful: half of them only get you to the Threshold 2. 12 dice is already pretty good as a spellcasting pool, however, and not so far from munchkinism.

[CanRay]

Those Streeline Special bullets are Powerful Weak!

[Mäx]

12 dice is already pretty good as a spellcasting pool, however, and not so far from munchkinism.

12 dice is powerfull if your multicasting 2 spells, for only one spell, not so much.

[Irion]

12 dice is powerfull if your multicasting 2 spells, for only one spell, not so much.

Yes, if you do the powerfocus trick, if you have at least 100 Karma or do not use ware and hardmax. etc. etc.
So 12 dices is quite powerfull for spellcasting. (in general)
(Yes, you may get 4 dices more for special spells)

[Neurosis]

Exactly. That's why my look at the dice pools differentiated between types of skills - 12 dice for pistols is weaksauce because there are ways that you can boost the Attribute, the skill, and the modifiers. 12 dice for survival, on the other hand, is Crocodile frikkin' Dundee.

I definitely disagree that 12 dice is a weaksauce attack pool.

No, just that it is usually not min-maxed or powergaming, since you can get there with a few logical choices, rather than any convoluted rules-raping.

Of course, munchkinery is something everyone has a different perspective on too. I'd disagree with you and say that 20 dice is definitely getting up there.