What is ""powerful"?, In Your Opinion Options

[Neurosis]

Huh, that's not how I read Medkits at all.



So you have 3 scenarios:

Medkit 6 left unattended: 6 dice (rating)
Medkit 6 used by someone untrained: Logic+6 (You receive the attribute and the device rating in place of skill, you don't get the extra +6 bonus at this point because you are using the medkit to replace skill)
Medkit 6 used by someone trained: Logic+First Aid+ 6 (Here since you are trained, you get your normal check with the device's rating as a bonus)

Yes, I believe your reading is correct.

[Neurosis]

glitch

[Angelone]

12 dice is a weak attack pool, you lose attack dice very quickly when modifiers start subtracting from your pool.

Edit - spelling

[Neurosis]

I might concede that 12 is average, but weak? The Red Samurai have an attack dice pool of 14 and are considered within the game's fluff (which yes, unsurprisingly does matter to me) to be one of the most elite paamilitary units in the world. I don't think that two dice under them (or, in other words, them with their Smartlinks off) should be considered 'weak'.

12 Dice, remember, is equivalent to a character with basically the maximum possible attribute and skill for an ordinary human. So it's not 'powerful', because in SR we have superhumans, but being in essence the peak of unaugmented human performance it just seems insane to call it weak.

[Angelone]

It's powerful to an unaugmented human yes. However, Shadowrun isn't about unaugmented humans, it's about augmented superhumans who face long odds regularly in order to survive. To Joe Wageslave 12 dice in anything is godly.

Edit- I was actually shocked at how bad Red Samurai were.

[suoq]

Medkit 6 used by someone untrained: Logic+6 (You receive the attribute and the device rating in place of skill, you don't get the extra +6 bonus at this point because you are using the medkit to replace skill)

While I prefer your interpretation, the "and" seems perfectly clear
SR4A pg 337

The medkit’s rating adds to the dice pool of all First Aid Tests, and replaces the character’s skill if the character doesn’t possess the skill

Edit: Unattened = pg 253. My bad.
Going ONLY by pg 253, yes, your interpretation reads correct. I'd love to have someone errata 337 to have an "or" there.

[Seerow]

While I prefer your interpretation, the "and" seems perfectly clear
SR4A pg 337

Edit: Unattened = pg 253. My bad.
Going ONLY by pg 253, yes, your interpretation reads correct. I'd love to have someone errata 337 to have an "or" there.

Okay, I wasn't aware that it was also described on 337.

I'd say it's a case of conflicting RAW, so the GM gets to choose which to follow. I would however say any solution that doesn't make the first aid skill a complete and total waste of build points is probably the better answer.

[Xarin]

and replaces the character’s skill if the character doesn’t possess the skill

For extra giggles and fun, turns out that part of the text was added for SR4A. It's not in the descirption of the device in SR4. The part on 253 is the same though. Ahhhh, editing for 'clarity' indeed.

And that being the case, I'd probably stick with the original. Either a bonus, or replace the skill, not both.

[Neurosis]

Well that would be the sane interpretation as the other interpretation punishes a character for having the skill.

[PeteThe1]

I might concede that 12 is average, but weak? The Red Samurai have an attack dice pool of 14 and are considered within the game's fluff (which yes, unsurprisingly does matter to me) to be one of the most elite paamilitary units in the world. I don't think that two dice under them (or, in other words, them with their Smartlinks off) should be considered 'weak'.

12 Dice, remember, is equivalent to a character with basically the maximum possible attribute and skill for an ordinary human. So it's not 'powerful', because in SR we have superhumans, but being in essence the peak of unaugmented human performance it just seems insane to call it weak.

It's powerful to an unaugmented human yes. However, Shadowrun isn't about unaugmented humans, it's about augmented superhumans who face long odds regularly in order to survive. To Joe Wageslave 12 dice in anything is godly.

Edit- I was actually shocked at how bad Red Samurai were.

But there comes a point where you're so good its silly. Even with augmentations the PCs are still ultimately human. And 12-14 is amazing. You think today, 12-14 dice is Tom Brady throwing a football, Stephen Hawking doing physics, or Bill Clinton being a pornomancer. Yes, successful runners are exceptionally good at what they do, and having the tech lets them be better than should be possible, but at some point you're crossing a fuzzy line where you're a better swordsman than Neil the Ork Barbarian. After all, we're only runners, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, more of us.

[suoq]

at some point you're crossing a fuzzy line where you're a better swordsman than Neil the Ork Barbarian

My experience is that at that point, you either have a LOT of Karma or a LOT of glass. If you want to avoid that point, don't ignore the glass.

[Ascalaphus]

But there comes a point where you're so good its silly. Even with augmentations the PCs are still ultimately human. And 12-14 is amazing. You think today, 12-14 dice is Tom Brady throwing a football, Stephen Hawking doing physics, or Bill Clinton being a pornomancer. Yes, successful runners are exceptionally good at what they do, and having the tech lets them be better than should be possible, but at some point you're crossing a fuzzy line where you're a better swordsman than Neil the Ork Barbarian. After all, we're only runners, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, more of us.

Nah, those "superhumans" of today also get a lot of bonus dice: Experimental Physics Facility (+6 dice) or Thinks Tanks and Spin Doctors (both providing assist dice).

A significant part of any dice pool is going to consist of bonuses from tech, gear, assist and circumstances. 12 is a lot of dice if you ignore all those modifiers, but that's talking laboratory conditions; in the wild, everyone gets modifiers. So focusing on typical Attribute+Skill numbers warps your perspective of what weak and powerful dice pools would be in practice.