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> New Hacking Programs, Fresh off the Line!, Cool New Programs being created
CrystalBlue
post Aug 25 2011, 01:13 PM
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I've looked through the list of programs that are available to hackers and companies and thought it could use an increase. No book I know of (I haven't read much of Unwired) has more programs, so I thought of some programs I myself code for or use on a daily basis and retro-fitted them to Shadowrun. Some of these might be broken or overpowered, or they need tweeking. If you think something should be changed or tweeked, or if there already is a program out there that does what one of these does, let me know.

Fortify (Computer): This program ramps up the difficulty to overtake an icon through use of any hacking program. It launches debugging code into the middle of certain parts of the icon to detect and redirect common-use hacker attacks and malicious code, dumping them out of sensitive sub-routines. For each hit generated, increase the target number of any unauthorized access (any check from the Cracking group) except for hostile programs (such as Attack, Blackout, Black Hammer). This program can only generate a total defense up to the program’s rating and an icon can only be fortified once. If another Fortify command is issued on the icon, the new number may replace the old check.

VeriFly (Electronic Warfare): This program begins to ‘scrub’ connections to ferret out hacking attempts by running credentials through rigorous authentication. While in this mode, the user of this program must sustain the use of it, imposing a -2 penalty to all their other checks as they keep the program active and running. The user makes a check with all net hits (capped at the program’s rating) imposing a penalty against the icon’s Stealth program, unless the icon spends a simple action to ‘verify’ their credentials manually each phase they are in the system.

TarPaper (Hacking): With this program, the user slows down network and computer traffic, restricting certain access points constricting bandwidth by filtering it through query analysis. It does not outright check and verify the data, but it filters’s it based on the type of programs running. Once an icon has been Analyzed successfully, TarPaper can be used to lower the initiative of an icon. While active, the program imposes a penalty to initiative equal to it’s rating to the target icon. The user of this program also may choose to spam the target, instead rolling an opposed roll vs the icon’s Response + Firewall. If successful, the target icon’s initiative passes are reduced by one. If used on an icon when they have only one pass left, they lose that pass. If the target has no passes left, this penalty is applied to the next initiative round.

Erosion (Hacking): This program breaks down code, pulling it apart at the easiest and hardest-to-notice ways in a much longer-term then an attack program does. It does not simply try injecting code error into a program, it literally pulls the code apart and resaves the program back to the icon. When used on an Analyzed icon, the user rolls an opposed test vs Firewall + Rating of the program being targeted. If successful, the erosion lowers the rating of the program by 1. If the program reaches a rating of 0, it is lost and dumped off of the target’s icon. The erosion program targets all copies of the program loaded onto an icon’s node, so a hacker that loses a program cannot use it again until they load a clean copy of the code back onto their device.

SubClause (Computer): A program may use and implement harder-to-crack security services by using redundant verification and confirmation. Commonly known as the TOS pop-ups and other pop-ups that spam a user to enter name and password again or to accept a set of circumstances, else they lose out on access. Any user of this program running this actively automatically spams users when they attempt to log in to the network, regardless of legal or illegal credentials. When an icon attempts to login to a system with an actively running SubClause, they may review the warning message. The user of this program chooses one of the following: add dice to the dice pool of checks made by all friendly icons on the system, lower the defensive programs of all logged in icons by it’s rating (Armor, Stealth, ect), or allow the system to use a psudo Edge on any check made on the system. All of these ratings are equal to the SubClause program rating. Once a user agrees to these warnings, the SubClause program imbed’s itself into the icon logging into the system. This embedding sticks around so long as the user is logged into this node. If logging out, the embedding erases itself. The icon may rolls an Exploit + Hacking vs SubClause + Computer. If successful, they’ve found a loop-hole in the code rules and bypasses the embedding.
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 01:51 PM
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Here's my reply:

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 24 2011, 02:38 PM) *
6) Reduce the number of programs. First aid is possible without a first aid kit. Hacking needs to be possible without 12 hacking programs.

QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 24 2011, 03:13 PM) *
I cannot agree more with all of that.

QUOTE (Seerow @ Aug 24 2011, 04:03 PM) *
3) On the topic of the matrix, stats should play a more prominent role. Everything else in the game uses stat+skill, yet the matrix uses skill+program. This kind of goes in hand with the need less programs, but really, I'm saying drop the vast majority of programs, and make all of the various actions usable by default with stat+skill, then programs can be bought to open up new options or improve existing options (like you could have a program that acts as a first aid kit, either replacing your hacking skill if you're untrained, or giving a bonus to your check if you have hacking). These programs should be cheap though, again similar in cost to medkits. Your biggest expense should be getting that nice commlink or nexus, then getting addons and the like is pretty easy.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 01:54 PM
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On the contrary, hacking is unlike first aid. Most things are *not* possible without the right program, by intent. This is in general, not specifically about these proposed programs.

An actual overhaul of the program rules/action would be nice, though. There's no reason there can't be a class of programs that allow actions, and a class that merely enhance.
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 25 2011, 09:54 AM) *
On the contrary, hacking is unlike first aid. Most things are *not* possible without the right program, by intent. This is in general, not specifically about these proposed programs.


My reply is more "we don't need MORE programs. D: " than anything.

We've already got "too many," most of which are largely unneeded.

QUOTE
An actual overhaul of the program rules/action would be nice, though. There's no reason there can't be a class of programs that allow actions, and a class that merely enhance.


Overhauling the matrix is grounds for another thread, and while we've all tried to simplify or better the hacking rules, no one's managed to do something that's "acceptable."
While it's true that hackers will need hacking programs to do their job, what I'd like to do is make those programs....less important and more consolidated. You pay $500 for "Exploit." It has no rating and simply says "you're a hacker now. You got the skill to use it?"
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 02:06 PM
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I agree, there are dozens of programs and it's nuts. If they made the Options rules more flexible instead, that might help.

Certainly, I wasn't suggesting doing it *here*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I really think it's a feature of the Matrix rules that money (gear) and not skill determines what you can do. They're not supposed to be like mages, and it's not supposed to be cheap. This doesn't mean that's the best way, nor that other setups can't exist instead (we've seen mage-style, ammo-style, etc. etc.).
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Kirk
post Aug 25 2011, 02:10 PM
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On the other hand, slight tweaks of the arguments you're making could be used for magic and meat combat.

Why do I need to have all these different kinds of gun rules and types, after all. It's just shoot. One roll, is the other guy dead or not?

yeah, not quite what you meant, but it's got a strong taste of it nonetheless.
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Makki
post Aug 25 2011, 02:23 PM
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you guys should read Eclipse Phase.
There's one Hacking skill that is used for all tests. The Exploit program is necessary to hack and expensive, but doesn't give any bonus.
And there's only one skill "Kinetic Weapons". You use it for all kinds of guns.

@topic I don't like your programs. they're all overpowered and the "cap at program rating" is a new unnecessary addition
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CrystalBlue
post Aug 25 2011, 02:34 PM
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Well, understand why I do this.

Given the hacking rules as they are now, hacking is insanely easy for a hacker. To get admin access to ANY large corp, you only need 12 successes which, given the hacking pools I've seen, is do-able in either a few hours or a few phases. So a hacker's going to get in. That's not even a question. And the likeliness of a hacker having a Stealth program running under 6 rating is very low. So, for the system to notice him, I'd have to get 6 successes on 12 dice. That's really not fair for the computer. And then, after that, the hacker has full access to EVERYTHING that node has.

Again, this might just be my confusion of the rules. I had an earlier thread trying to make sense of these rules and how to challenge the hacker, and I didn't get very far when I tried writing one up. I created an apartment complex that they need to get into and they're in a hurry. I created an outside node that then had a bridge inside to the inner CPU that they needed to get to. So they had to brute force their way through two of them. The external system is only 2 and the internal system is 4. I'm rolling shit against a stealth program 6 and hoping they're all successes.

There has to be SOMETHING I can do to a hacker, and I still can't see what that is. More programs that need to be circumvented is the solution. I am honestly at a lose as to how a node is supposed to be constructed with LESS programs. Stat + Skill works in theory, but then you have a mish-mash of arbitrary rules that have no clear definition. It heralds back to the days when my friends used to play D&D by saying "You roll a 15. You kill the dragon. Good job." Simplicity puts too much onus on the story teller to construct every possible outcome.
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 25 2011, 10:06 AM) *
I really think it's a feature of the Matrix rules that money (gear) and not skill determines what you can do. They're not supposed to be like mages, and it's not supposed to be cheap. This doesn't mean that's the best way, nor that other setups can't exist instead (we've seen mage-style, ammo-style, etc. etc.).


Gear definitely matters, I'm not debating that. But in order to draw the "not a hacker" characters into the matrix on occasion, the basics should be possible with a minimum of expenditure. For a character to be a dedicated hacker, though, they'll want "all the extras" and have more options than "shoot to kill" as it were.

The gun nut has 4 different kinds of ammo and 6 different guns, all for different situations. The face has a concealed holdout pistol with regular ammunition. Functional and capable in a gun fight, but only has one choice.

A hacker has 10 different programs, all for different situations. The rest of the party has the basics. Functional and capable on the matrix, but have limited choices.

QUOTE (Makki @ Aug 25 2011, 10:23 AM) *
@topic I don't like your programs. they're all overpowered and the "cap at program rating" is a new unnecessary addition


This, also.
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CrystalBlue
post Aug 25 2011, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 09:36 AM) *
But in order to draw the "not a hacker" characters into the matrix on occasion, the basics should be possible with a minimum of expenditure.


Maybe I don't have the mind for this game then. Not everyone should be a hacker. In fact, not everyone should be buying programs and putting points into Computers and Hacking. That's like saying that every character should have Automatics and Longarms and every mundane character should have Spellcasting, just because. Is it logical for the infiltration specialist to have a commlink with a small exploit and stealth program? Sure does. Does it make sense for a troll to be carrying around a spoof program? Doesn't in my book.

Maybe runners will have high-end commlinks with IC protecting it from intrusion, but there is no reason the troll tank should have hacking programs and skills. It doesn't make sense, in my opinion. Since the skills all say that basic uses of them do not require having points in them, any Joe on the street can Google for something. That doesn't require a Computer skill and shouldn't require a Browse program.
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suoq
post Aug 25 2011, 03:19 PM
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Off topic:

QUOTE (Kirk @ Aug 25 2011, 08:10 AM) *
Why do I need to have all these different kinds of gun rules and types, after all. It's just shoot. One roll, is the other guy dead or not?

The fun part is, you don't. You can take a small subset of the gun list, mods, etc. and still do everything The variety of guns is a flavor mechanism.
Programs on the other hand are like Pokemon. You have to get them all. And for the most part they're complex for no reason. Analyze, Browse, Data Search, and Edit could all be a single program. It certainly doesn't make a lot of sense that if you buy Edit without Browse you can edit it but not read it. (And what the difference is between a rating 2 and a rating 6 browse program is still baffles me.) Why isn't Command part of System? Scan could go away completely and be replaced by Sniffer for detecting hidden nodes.

------------------------
Back on topic:

Fortify and Verify: This seems like unnecessary complexity to the use of firewall. What is the goal here in making firewall more complicated?
Tarpaper: This functionality already exists in game (Pg 87 Unwired).
Erosion: Why not just delete the program and remove all copies?
Subclause: Again, I'm missing the goal of this, unless pizza delivery in your town takes longer.

Your goal here appears to be complicating the already time consuming (read: Everyone at the table starts opening their laptops and surfs while the hacker and the GM do massive amounts of dice rolling) hacking rules. I'm not sure why.
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Kirk
post Aug 25 2011, 03:19 PM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Aug 25 2011, 09:55 AM) *
That's like saying that every character should have Automatics and Longarms and every mundane character should have Spellcasting, just because. I


No, it's more like saying every character should have a weapon and some armor. And if the game designers had allowed purchase of a spell defense or mitigation that could be used by mundanes it, too, would be an "always" item.

The street sam needs a good firewall and should probably purchase an agent that runs a small set of programs looking for intruders. And a smart one will just like a smart mage or technomancer will pick up some armor and weapon.
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suoq
post Aug 25 2011, 03:26 PM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Aug 25 2011, 08:34 AM) *
Given the hacking rules as they are now, hacking is insanely easy for a hacker. To get admin access to ANY large corp, you only need 12 successes which, given the hacking pools I've seen, is do-able in either a few hours or a few phases.

What kind of hacking pools are you seeing?

Note that Firewall (5) + Hardware Optimize: Firewall (1) + Analyze (6) (with optimize 3), can be run on most cheap commlinks at under 12 availability and for very little nuyen. Do not make the mistake of leaving the defense at SR4A levels when the offense is using Unwired, War!, etc. Give your large corporations the firewalls, etc. in War!, as well as Mooks that don't have mercy programmed into them. Use honeypots (targets that look attractive but have no actual value while having agents with trace functions).
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CrystalBlue
post Aug 25 2011, 03:49 PM
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I don' know, maybe this was a bad idea to put here. They were ideas to make hacking more of a challenge. Hacking back in 3rd edition was deadly and serious. It was always a race between the decker and the security sheaf, seeing who got to what first. It was interesting. Hacking in 4th edition, for the last four years of me play, has been a simple "Uh, yeah. You break in. What do you want to do?" Because there was no risk. No serious opposition. Break into node, grab data, get out. There isn't a constant watch on the clock or IC patroling the area, scrutinzing every icon they saw. Am I just stupid, or did the corps's Matrix security get WORSE after the second crash, because I can't find a way to really make the hacker sweat.

My hacker usually can get an exploit of 6 and a hacking of 6. And that's an extended test. That can go on for as long as it needs to, if they're probing. And then, when they break into the node, they only have one roll that detects them. If it's a hacker with a good Stealth program or a smart Technomancer threading their complex forms, the system rolls a small amount of dice vs them and gets not enough. The hacker's in. Now what's stopping them? The system doesn't get to keep making checks on them. And the hacker doesn't have to continue to roll exploits or hack anything, he has Admin access. Security files, gone. Bank numbers, downloaded. Smiley face on the AR screens. And victory. And the system just takes it like a...well...some complex bondage metaphor. >.>;;

I created the extra programs because they sounded fun and they sounded like security procedures we do at my company. Not to the same extreme, but we limit users in a number of ways by controlling how people get to our data, even after they've logged in with correct credentials. Maybe not so much the malicious code, but the theory is the same.

But maybe you guys are trying harder to just justify, to me, why the matrix rules are crap and putting more programs into it doesn't solve it. Look, I agree with you. I don't like the Matrix rules. I want my 3rd edition back. But I play with what I'm dealt and the 4th edition is what I'm playing with. There's nothing I can do.

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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE (Kirk @ Aug 25 2011, 11:19 AM) *
No, it's more like saying every character should have a weapon and some armor. And if the game designers had allowed purchase of a spell defense or mitigation that could be used by mundanes it, too, would be an "always" item.

The street sam needs a good firewall and should probably purchase an agent that runs a small set of programs looking for intruders. And a smart one will just like a smart mage or technomancer will pick up some armor and weapon.


This.

The problem is that right now, the cybersam who doesn't have a good comlink and good programs is vulnerable to hacking to the degree that it will get him killed at the push of a button and he'd have not only no way to defend himself, but no way to even know that it's happening.

And in order to keep an enemy hacker out, you have to spend something like 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (and the hacker is better still, anyway). In order to defend yourself from a hacker, you need to be a hacker. And unlike "defending against spells means being a spellcaster" you can't have one in the party and cover everyone (that is: a mage can counterspell the entire party. The hacker cannot "counter hack" for the entire party).
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Deadman Trigger
post Aug 25 2011, 03:56 PM
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Given the hacking rules as they are now, hacking is insanely easy for a hacker. To get admin access to ANY large corp, you only need 12 successes which, given the hacking pools I've seen, is do-able in either a few hours or a few phases.


Reread the hacking on the fly rules and remember that megas aren't going to have anything of value on a public access node. Your team is going to have to get access to those nodes. Hacker won't have time to find the backdoor. On the fly rules make it an extended test and every roll the node gets a firewall check with the hits being cumulative....not so easy now is it?
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Aerospider
post Aug 25 2011, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 25 2011, 04:19 PM) *
It certainly doesn't make a lot of sense that if you buy Edit without Browse you can edit it but not read it.

You don't need Browse to read stuff - anyone with access to a file can read it, no program required. Browse just helps you find stuff that's buried under a shit-load of other stuff. You shouldn't need it if you know the file name of a document on a memory chip, but if you're in a vast corporate node and you only know vague details about the subject matter you'll get nowhere fast without it.
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CrystalBlue
post Aug 25 2011, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 10:51 AM) *
The problem is that right now, the cybersam who doesn't have a good comlink and good programs is vulnerable to hacking to the degree that it will get him killed at the push of a button and he'd have not only no way to defend himself, but no way to even know that it's happening.


And that's a stupid sam. If he's not smart enough to keep himself defended, then he deserves everything he gets. I shouldn't have to change the way the game is played based on the ignorance of players.


QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 10:51 AM) *
And in order to keep an enemy hacker out, you have to spend something like 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (and the hacker is better still, anyway). In order to defend yourself from a hacker, you need to be a hacker. And unlike "defending against spells means being a spellcaster" you can't have one in the party and cover everyone (that is: a mage can counterspell the entire party. The hacker cannot "counter hack" for the entire party).


This is untrue. A hacker can counter hack for an entire party. You allow the hacker to pan everyone together, so they all have to go through him before they can get to any of those devices. And the hacker can use his own agents to patrol everyone's devices. I thought this was do-able. If it's not, then I need to completely rework how my systems are built, because now you can't have a security layer around sensitive systems, which seems stupid. This does limit what the other runners can interact with, but again, the other characters shouldn't be hackers and shouldn't need hacking equipment. They need a good device and good security.
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suoq
post Aug 25 2011, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Aug 25 2011, 09:49 AM) *
That can go on for as long as it needs to, if they're probing.
And the system firewall can find them and trace them while they probe.
QUOTE
the system rolls a small amount of dice vs them and gets not enough
Again, if the hacker is using Unwired, then the defense needs to use Unwired and War! and anything else you want to pull out of your pockets.

The good stuff doesn't need to be attached to the matrix. The real good stuff has no need to even be wireless.
If it is on the matrix, how does the hacker know the access ID of his target and how many systems does he have to go through to get to the node with the good stuff?
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suoq
post Aug 25 2011, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 09:51 AM) *
And in order to keep an enemy hacker out, you have to spend something like 10,000

Erika Elite @ 2500
Firewall 5 @ 2500
Hardware Optimize @ 500
Analyze 6 + Optimize 3 @ 900
Reasonable defense for 6400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , barely over 1 BP, 1 BP when you consider you needed a commlink anyway.

Meanwhile, this node is running hidden. The commlink that's running public has a fake ID and nothing of value, however it also can be protected for a single BP.

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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 04:28 PM
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I agree with Kirk and Draco18s: having a comm and programs for it is the same as having weapons and armor. Or hell, just armor. It's a Matrix 2.0 world, and you're a moron if you decide to go blind and naked in it. The fact that you can do significant things without investing much (at all) in skills is, AFAIK, the whole point of Matrix in SR4A; it's matrix for everyone. The hackers with high skills and top gear still rock out loud.
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Draco18s
post Aug 25 2011, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Aug 25 2011, 12:01 PM) *
And that's a stupid sam. If he's not smart enough to keep himself defended, then he deserves everything he gets. I shouldn't have to change the way the game is played based on the ignorance of players.


Now read the fluff. Joe Blow on the street has none of those defenses. You need to own the latest and greatest hardware (and then optimize it to make it better), the best firewall, and then the latest and greatest Analyze software (optimized to run on the hardware) and all that does is when the hacker breaks in, it triggers an alarm. You've got nothing that keeps him from fooling around with you and your stuff after he's gotten in anyway (Analyze only says "hey, there's an intruder" it doesn't actually keep them out).

QUOTE
Meanwhile, this node is running hidden.


Which does jack. A real hacker can find hidden nodes just as easily as public nodes (the threshold is 1 versus 3 with a dice pool of 12+)

QUOTE
This is untrue. A hacker can counter hack for an entire party. You allow the hacker to pan everyone together, so they all have to go through him before they can get to any of those devices. And the hacker can use his own agents to patrol everyone's devices. I thought this was do-able. If it's not, then I need to completely rework how my systems are built, because now you can't have a security layer around sensitive systems, which seems stupid. This does limit what the other runners can interact with, but again, the other characters shouldn't be hackers and shouldn't need hacking equipment. They need a good device and good security.


1) Agents: agents are cheating. If you allow the use of agents, the game devolves into "turtles all the way down" because agents are "cheap" and you can run an infinite number of them.
2) Linking pans: sure you can slave devices to another device. The enemy just pulls out his Spoof program and....oh, that pan linking didn't help you at all, did it?
3) Security layers died with SR3, because no one liked the system maps.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 05:07 PM
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Yes, it's very difficult to defend yourself (for long) from a good hacker. The system was apparently designed to allow them pretty significant ease, because otherwise they'd basically do nothing for hours and days. Either too-strong hackers, or no hackers. *shrug* That's an issue, and the GM can deal with it.

Still, everyone has decent access for doing some matrix functions, and should certainly have some okay gear for it. They *do* have and use agents, if only for data searches and things. The matrix is a fundamental part of life for even street trash, and you have to take that into account when considering the system and changes to it. It's not the astral, a special place just for the rare Awakened.
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suoq
post Aug 25 2011, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 25 2011, 10:36 AM) *
Which does jack. A real hacker can find hidden nodes just as easily as public nodes (the threshold is 1 versus 3 with a dice pool of 12+)
Actually it does quite a bit.
1) The hacker must be aware of the node, or at least have a good guess of where the device should be (SR4A 230)
2) It's an Electronic Warfare + Scan (4) Test which means mooks without an EW autosoft are incapable of doing it and even though a Scan 6 is cheap, Electronic Warfare is not a cheap skill for what it gives. The best bet for the hacker is a extended test during a meet but that means I'm getting screwed over at a meet, and that's bad news be it matrix, meat, or magic.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 25 2011, 05:14 PM
Post #25


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Well, only if he wants the easy version. He can scan for hidden nodes 'in general' at a much higher Threshold. It certainly does add another speed bump to use hidden mode, and that's the whole point of hacking defenses: slow him down.
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